We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

One eyed Jack

DiegoCosta wrote: »

Why do you say "Dear oh dear"?

It is perfectly valid to say someone is 100% correct in many problems.

Ie when you look at the commentary on many of the problems there are no faults.

It's not perfectly valid to say that, and here's why -

The use of percentages is objective, we all understand finite quantities.

The use of the word 'many' is subjective, doesn't tell us how many problems there actually are, and many of us disagree on whether those issues outlined by the OP are indeed actually problems that need solving.

MRnotlob606

People these days want instant satisfaction in everything they do.People are so hedonistic.

MRnotlob606

It's also the first time in History that rich people have been slimmer then poorer people.

KomradeBishop

realies wrote: »

For a person that wants change and equality you don't seem to tolerant of others who have different opions about you or your OP, not a good start.

Hmm? The OP has been extremely patient in the face of many hostile and often quite condescending responses (such as the post the OP was replying to, in the part you quote), so I don't know where you get that from.

Sunnyisland

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

It's also the first time in History that rich people have been slimmer then poorer people.

That's because there going to them expensive gyms nowadays....















Joking before someone takes a stroke.

DiegoCosta

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's not perfectly valid to say that, and here's why -

The use of percentages is objective, we all understand finite quantities.

The use of the word 'many' is subjective, doesn't tell us how many problems there actually are, and many of us disagree on whether those issues outlined by the OP are indeed actually problems that need solving.

Ok I disagree, I say it's valid.

Permabear said that many of the points raised in the OP were 100% percent valid. There is nothing wrong with that sentence.

Sunnyisland

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Hmm? The OP has been extremely patient in the face of many hostile and often quite condescending responses (such as the post the OP was replying to, in the part you quote), so I don't know where you get that from.

I wasent just going by that post, I am going by quite few other posts he wrote here and in this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057314583

One eyed Jack

DiegoCosta wrote: »

Ok I disagree, I say it's valid.

Permabear said that many of the points raised in the OP were 100% percent valid. There is nothing wrong with that sentence.

There's a lot wrong with that sentence, an opinion if you like, because it doesn't tell us anything about what points Permabear thinks are worth raising in order to be validated, and secondly, whatever points Permabear thinks are valid, are only 100% valid for Permabear.

There's just no attempt at objectivity there, at all.

I'll try and use an example from the opening post, actually I'll take two -

Wurly wrote: »

- nanny states

- erosion of social interactions

'Nanny states' - I presume the OP is referring to the way the State takes account of the welfare of it's citizens. Well isn't that what it's supposed to do? Isn't that what the OP wants - all of us to look out for each other?

Otherwise, their second point is invalid -

'Erosion of social interactions' - We have more ways to interact with each other socially than at any other time in human history. We can all look out for each other, we wouldn't be socially interacting like this if social interactions were being eroded. I'd have to write a strongly worded letter and wait weeks for your strongly worded reply.

We have more ways to meet and greet new people from every walk of life than ever before. We are all citizens of the State, and we all look out for each other.

Now, you tell me - do these two issues above seem like points that have merit to you in order to validate them? Not just 50% valid, but 100% valid, no discussion required, they ARE issues that need solving?

Let's just say for instance that the State no longer has a duty of care towards all it's citizens - I can clock you over the head for disagreeing with my opinion and you have no recourse to complain, because the State has no duty towards you any more, you're left to your own devices to fend for yourself.

Let's just say social interaction becomes a thing where we're inextricably intertwined - I'm constantly in your face, up in your business, I can say hi-dee-ho neighbourino and you'll have to just grin and bear it, unless of course you decide to clock me over the head and dump me in a skip. You'd be able to do that if I didn't have the protection of the Nanny State.

See? 100% valid, or no merit whatsoever, merely empty rhetoric. That's two down for me anyway, and we haven't even gone global yet.

Mrs Garth Brooks

So much negativity in this country.

Would like 5 concerts as pick me up. For once in my life. Instead of being shat upon with extra cuts, charges and austerity.

whats newxt

If you want real change you first have to change the people otherwise we will just create a system that has all the flaws of the old system

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Hmm? The OP has been extremely patient in the face of many hostile and often quite condescending responses (such as the post the OP was replying to, in the part you quote), so I don't know where you get that from.

Are we reading the same posts? He has not accepted a single point from anybody who does not follow his own line of thought. He poses the reply as a question but accepts nothing. This is why attempts to correct failings in society falter - an attitude that there must be something amiss with anybody who doesn't see the need for correction. Animal Farm all over again!

Jester252

Wurly wrote: »

Instead of jumping to conclusions, how about you ask me a question?

I'm a 32 year old business owner actually.

Now, moving on....

I wasn't jumping to any conclusion, my conclusion is based off your 101 understanding of economics.

Areyouwell

caustic 1 wrote: »

Gets popcorn.

All this excessive popcorn consumption, really needs to be brought under control.

Iwasfrozen

whats newxt wrote: »

If you want real change you first have to change the people otherwise we will just create a system that has all the flaws of the old system

New Soviet Man?

or

Homo Sovieticus?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Areyouwell wrote: »

All this excessive popcorn consumption, really needs to be brought under control.

At last we reach the knub of the issue and the solution to the woes that distress so many. Can we actually control popcorn consumption though? Local initiatives will fail due to cross border movement and the ability to purchase it via the internet. Therefore international agreement is needed. Vested interest will then come in to play. Corn producers leading the opposition. Some countries will not agree to the notion that pop corn consumption is a problem in the first place or will have more urgent concerns. Human rights bodies will go into overdrive. Illegal pop corn trading will blossom.

It's never easy to bring about change that meets the universal agreement?

Cantremember

AH how I miss you when a thread like this would be dumped into politics and generate pages of theoretical discussion and logic fault finding culminating in bans and sulks.

waking dreams

I guess with all systems they are set up to benefit someone. So the current western system works for some and not for others. I ask myself on daily basis am I happy with my life and the way I am living it. It would appear that a lot that posted on this thread would ask the same too. It also depends on what a persons definition of happiness is. I worked in a job earning 33 grand, I had the option to stay with that company and maybe get an increase to 35 grand over a course of 3 years of begging and pleading. But then I looked at what difference that would actually make to my life. And taking tax into account it turned out to be minimal. So for anyone who is happy staying in a similar circumstance that type of system would work for them. If we take it that everyone is willing to accept that we do not live in a democracy but are happy just "getting by" the question then raises as to what is every ones actual purpose of living? Family? Friends etc? what about yourself? If everyone based how they acted on how good it made them feel it would be a very different world. A mad world. But it would appear that the majority of people are willing to forget that good feeling and take the RTE way of living in misery. The change in the world has to come from within first. People love being negative about everything. Just look at the 9 O Clock News tonight. Look at the tripe that is being fed through TV's in peoples sitting rooms every day of the year. It is nice to question things and learn things for yourself. Everyone is allowed to be curious.

Wurly

So. I've just been reading back over this thread. It seems that some don't like the overall idea. Some don't understand the idea. And some are opposed to the idea.

Some are genuinely trying to understand but don't get what I mean. I will attempt to elaborate on each post in my OP.

As stated, I don't know all the answers. I can't solve the problems on my own. I have some great skills to offer but i'm not so well versed on other things. This is why I wanted the discussion. So we could all pool our intelligent minds and come up with new ideas based on a collective knowledge.

It appears that there is a lot of hostility on this thread, some directed at me and some at others. Can yis all seriously calm down? We are all only talking here. I'm not going to deal with each hostile point one by one. I'd prefer to focus on the issues I raised. Some posters find it difficult a notion to grasp when I talk on a global level. So I will focus on each issue at a local level.

So...
pollution and climate change
The giveaway of our oil worth an estimated 500bn to shell
We also gave our natural gas away for free to shell
Increase in flooding in Ireland which is part of the overall global problem
Carbon taxes whose generated revenue is put into the construction of roads
Sellafield 180km away from Ireland which pumps radioactive waste into our seas but yet we don't use nuclear power
Recently, we have fallen behind in the WHO's guidelines on air pollution. Air pollution, caused by too many cars, because the public transport system is crap.
The pollution of soil due to the amount of building done during the celtic tiger era. And now there are more plans underway for other questionable building sites.
Only 4% of our bogs are now protected under EU law.

These are but a few. Our government allowed all this to happen. I would like change in these areas.

distribution of wealth to keep the poor powerless and the elite powerful
This is entirely evident with the bank guarantee. All of us were hit but the bondholders got their money. The government still kept lavish salaries, pensions and bonuses while they taxed their own people to the hilt.

This means people work harder for less money, trying to keep a roof over their heads. The pressure makes us want to block out the noise and focus on survival. All the while, the government gets away with decision making like this.

governments that don't serve their people correctly
Our government are all about fear. Fear mongering on every level. Preying on the vulnerable with cuts to special needs assistants for example. The government do nothing to calm our fears. In fact, they deliberately create them to justify myriads of taxation. Do you want people that operate in this fashion governing you?

extinction of bees, plants, marine creatures and animals
We are all part of the mass production of food problem. Buying stuff, letting it go off and then throwing it away. I would wager that most of us waste a criminal amount of food. We are aiding mass production, lending to increased pesticides in the air which is killing our bees.

Ireland's animal protection laws are widely known as shambolic. We have very relaxed laws on hunting wildlife and cruelty cases receive a paltry fine at best.

Don't our animals deserve better than this?
wasting of food while others starve
I have inadvertently dealt with this above. But the fact is, there is enough food on this earth to adequately feed every person on this planet. But the distribution of food is arseways. Buy buying too much food, we create more consumption. This consumption increases demand which causes the companies to produce more. To keep down the level of production costs, the companies steal from indigenous farmers in developing countries. The very countries that have the food shortage!

the dumbing down of a nation via medications, contaminates in food, junk media and broadcasting etc.
Denis O'Brien owns Communicorp group who own Spin, Newstalk, FM104, Today FM and 98FM.

He is also the largest shareholder of the Independent News and Media. Vincent Browne spoke out about Denis O'Brien in the past saying he wasn't a fit calibre of person to be running it.

He also owns Irish Water and Topaz garages.

He was involved in the Moriarty tribunal and is in heavy cahoots with our government via dodgy loans etc.

Is this the person you want to have own your water supply?

nanny states
Off licenses closing at 10pm. How is this to solve anything?
We have 215 bodies established to regulate how we live our lives. The US have 13.
If you want a laugh, take a look at the Personal Insolvency Guidelines. Here, they detail down to the euro and cent what we should be spending on things like 'personal grooming' http://www.isi.gov.ie/en/ISI/GuidelinesUnderSection23-FINAL.pdf/Files/GuidelinesUnderSection23-FINAL.pdf

Do you want someone 'in charge' of you that thinks he knows how to run YOUR life better than YOU do?

erosion of social interactions
How much time, investment and energy have the government really put into arts and culture in this country? How many community related initiatives do you see that are funded by the government in Irish neighbourhoods?

For elderly people in this country, the cut in home help hours reduces the amount of human contact that person may have.

A huge factor in depression comes from a loss of identity and a loss of connection to other people. Perhaps if the government's focus was on the genuine wellbeing of their people, we wouldn't have such high levels of depression.
filtered versions of the news so we can be kept ignorant by the powers that be
I'll use Denis O'Brien as an example here. If this man owns Irish Water and he also runs the Independent News and Media, then doesn't it stand to reason that what you read in your newspaper is a skewed truth?

Ever been to an Irish Water protest and then wondered why the reporting on it made a tiny headline in the paper or none at all? There's your answer.
wars
Did any of us at a local level agree with Shannon airport being used as a refuelling station during the war on Iraq? Personally speaking, I would have liked a say in this. Aren't we supposed to be a neutral country?

If you look at all of my examples above, you can see they are all dark and depressing. And that's the current model we have. There is no light in it whatsoever. It keeps us afraid, depressed and apathetic.

Now let's look to the fact that the people that govern us make up a tiny portion of the global population. I would not have been happy with any of the above happening if I had a say. Would you?

So if you would not be happy either, then we have something in common. We are all of equal intelligence and merit. We all have something that we are good at. Due to the sheer size of us, we can create massive change.

We start locally. Supporting local shops and businesses. Sustaining ourselves as much as possible from our own localities. Building personal relationships with the people we meet. And getting involved in decision making regarding the welfare of our people and our resources.

So don't you see that we have to be on each other's side in order to do this? But we have to start thinking outside the box and we have to start getting along with one another.

You know when you're happy, the world feels wonderful. It inspires you to do more, be more, give more. it makes everything around you thrive.

So why would anyone want a government whose agenda is to instill fear? I work with people who are fearful every day. And most of their fears are born out others fears which then become theirs. All this worrying that we do is not good for us, especially not our health. We really do deserve better.

Life should be all about love. That's what most of us want out of life when you think about it. It's more important than anything else. It is the very essence of who we are. If you feel a resistance to that, then it's worth looking inward to see just how much you think of yourself and your own self worth. People with high self worth neither want to abuse themselves, nor others. This is why the model of the world that now exists will always lead to misery. Consumerism on a grand scale. The promise of happiness or approval once you have this or that product. All based on fear of not being good enough or worthy enough exactly as you are .

So this is why we need to talk to one another. Not take life so seriously. When you do that, friendships form and ideas are pondered. Conversation begins and change happens.

So i'm really looking forward to seeing what collective ideas we can come up with.

Wurly

Oh and if you think it's not possible, our icelandic friends show us how it's done.

http://collectivelyconscious.net/articles/why-iceland-should-be-in-the-news-but-is-not/

Donkey Oaty

Wurly wrote: »

Do you want someone 'in charge' of you that thinks he knows how to run YOUR life better than YOU do?

It depends. For example, I'd be lost without my butler to choose a tie for me in the mornings and give hints for the FT crossword.

Iwasfrozen

Wurly wrote: »

Oh and if you think it's not possible, our icelandic friends show us how it's done.

http://collectivelyconscious.net/articles/why-iceland-should-be-in-the-news-but-is-not/

Iceland's gdp per capita is lower than ours, their expected growth is lower.

Before the boom their gdp per capita was higher and their growth rate was higher.

We're recovering faster than them despite having less resources and more debt.

Source: https://www.google.ie/search?q=iceland+gdp&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&gws_rd=cr&ei=uitNVP-APeTT7Qb8roCYDQ

Wurly

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We're recovering faster than them despite having less resources and more debt.

Source: https://www.google.ie/search?q=iceland+gdp&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&gws_rd=cr&ei=uitNVP-APeTT7Qb8roCYDQ

I wouldn't equate recovery with debt personally.

Iwasfrozen

Wurly wrote: »

I wouldn't equate recovery with debt personally.

Neither would I, that's why I wrote:

"Iceland's gdp per capita is lower than ours, their expected growth is lower.

Before the boom their gdp per capita was higher and their growth rate was higher.

We're recovering faster than them despite having less resources and more debt."

Wurly

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Neither would I, that's why I wrote:

"Iceland's gdp per capita is lower than ours, their expected growth is lower.

Before the boom their gdp per capita was higher and their growth rate was higher.

We're recovering faster than them despite having less resources and more debt."

Yes and i'm saying that we have more debt than Iceland. So how are we recovering if we're still in debt? It doesn't make sense to me.

the evasion_kid

The burning man experience is were its at ....no money

Iwasfrozen

Wurly wrote: »

Yes and i'm saying that we have more debt than Iceland. So how are we recovering if we're still in debt? It doesn't make sense to me.

Because:

"Iceland's gdp per capita is lower than ours, their expected growth is lower.

Before the boom their gdp per capita was higher and their growth rate was higher."

bnt

Well, I've said my piece(s) already, and I think the problem is more fundamental than individual people or institutions. We may be human, but we're still animals: part of our nature is to consume and procreate, and to do it without examining these parts of our nature too closely. We seek to acquire and store wealth like a squirrel acquires and stores acorns, and we justify these instincts ex post facto with economic theories. We are driven to expand our numbers, and invent religions to justify our biases and urges.

In my opinion, then: governments, banks, media tycoons - these are symptoms, not the disease. The OP wants to fix those, which is laudable, but it falls short of addressing the real issues. I think Karl Marx got closer, in his analysis, though that doesn't mean I agree with his proposed solutions ...

Wurly

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because:

"Iceland's gdp per capita is lower than ours, their expected growth is lower.

Before the boom their gdp per capita was higher and their growth rate was higher."

A small price to pay for true democracy.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wurly wrote: »

Oh and if you think it's not possible, our icelandic friends show us how it's done.

http://collectivelyconscious.net/articles/why-iceland-should-be-in-the-news-but-is-not/

Rather than link to sites that suit your opinion perhaps some research of the facts might help. This from a meeting of the UN Human Rights Council, specifically regarding Iceland:-


Iceland had signed the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, but that it had not yet been ratified. It also noted that gender inequality still existed in the areas of pay gap and women in leadership roles. The United Kingdom found worrying the statistic that in 2009 over half the population believed racial discrimination to be common. It raised concerns about the absence of a public authority to monitor violence and sexual abuse against children and welcomed the decision to build a new prison facility.
Ghana noted … the concern by the Committee on the Rights of the Child about the high drop-out rate of immigrant children. It also noted the 16 per cent gender pay gap, as indicated in the national report.
The United States remained concerned by gender pay gap and gender-based violence.
Australia … expressed concern that there was no definition of racial discrimination in Icelandic legislation. It was also concerned about reports of incarceration of juveniles and adults and of pretrial detainees and convicted prisoners in the same cells. Finally, Australia expressed concern about lenient sentences in cases of domestic violence, which acted as a disincentive to women who reported violent crimes to the authorities.
...expressed its concern over a number of human rights issues in Iceland, including racism and xenophobia, sexual violence and abuse of children, domestic violence, ethnic-based social inequalities, and the existence of substandard jails. It inquired about the root causes of these issues and concrete measures taken by the Iceland to address them.
Finland noted that lack of adequate resources in the prison system resulted in detainees having to wait to serve their sentences. It indicated that the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT) had observed that some prisons did not conform to the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners....
Germany noted concerns relating to prison conditions and regarding the lack of separation between juvenile and adult prisoners, men and women prisoners and pretrial and convicted prisoners. It requested information regarding measures taken to abolish these precarious conditions......

Iwasfrozen

Wurly wrote: »

A small price to pay for true democracy.

actually no, it's not.

Stable employment, secure property rights, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to protest, freedom to pursue happiness. These are all things people value more than your definition of what true democracy is.

P.S. You need to stop using subjective terms like "true democracy", your idea of true democracy and mine can be very different things.