Tánaiste Moany Burton: IW protesters 'seem to have extremely expensive phones'

KomradeBishop

VinLieger wrote: »

Can you quantify a decent quality of life? What does this mean, should they be able to shop in M&S for the weekly groceries?

You quantify a decent quality of life, after-the-fact based on its effects on peoples personal wellbeing, not prior-to-the-fact based on whether they shop in M&S.

jimgoose

GarIT wrote: »

Nobody else incurred your loans or credit card debts. You should have made sure you could pay them off before you got them. Even just borrowing money is bad economics and just wasting money. I've never owed a cent to anybody in my life and I'm better off for it, if my income drops I cut my spending...

Credit is a fundamental part of the modern world, and there is nothing wrong with it once the punter gets it into his/her cliggín that it is simply treating money as the commodity that it is. As far as I'm concerned operating completely without debt your whole life is only practical if your time is worth nearly nothing.

AlekSmart

eviltimeban wrote: »

People talk about "sneering" politicians... how do you know they are sneering? I'm sure JB & Co aren't exactly happy that they have to do this, watching their rating plummet. They'd like nothing more than to do a "giveaway" budget like McCreevey used to do to buy some votes and a couple more years in power, but there's a country to run and debt to be paid, so... not an option.

I've never particularly liked Burton but she's got a point... but... to all those people "protesting" or sending back their letters to Irish Water... just stop, because it isn't going to change anything. You'll only end up paying more. Lots more. If someone is going to struggle to pay the charge, the best thing to do is to help them complete their form properly, so they get their proper allowance. Not force them into a situation where they end up owing a load of money.

The so called "real" Socialists ("cup of strong tea socialists"?) are just using this as another bandwagon to jump on - another way to push against sensible governing and reality. After a while they'll realise it didn't work and they'll move on to the next thing, but what about the people who bought into their propaganda and now face large bills or even court appearances?

Same thing happened with the bin charges. Now we have a free market essentially, with more than one waste disposal company to choose from. I'm happy with my waste collection, I recycle more and know what I am paying each month.

Good ,sound commonsense Post eviltimeban,which I'd imagine will be shouted down in short order.

Other European countries have had their "Anarchism" opportunities long before us,with a fair oul sprinkling still available in the newer EU accession States.

The main difference is in how States handle this sort of stuff,and Irelands handling of it,so far,has been .....delicate....

As many posters point out,the majority of Water Meter installations have,so far proceded apace,with some householders even getting a wee bit extra,in the sense of a repaired footpath or bit of a slope to the driveway...;)

As it currently stands,Irish Water,can legally implement a Billing Mechanism without sight or sound of a Meter....

Fast-forward to mid 2105,and the appearance of "Estimated" billing,non payment,and the inevitable due process that comes with it,and there is every chance that Liveline will be overwhelemed with callers askin "Joe,Wat's keepin Irish Water,I'm waitin 6 months now for a meter...."

The legal and administrative groundwork,has been done long ago,when only the few saddo's who watch Dáil TV were up to speed on what the divil's were at.....:D

listermint

AlekSmart wrote: »

Good ,sound commonsense Post eviltimeban,which I'd imagine will be shouted down in short order.

Other European countries have had their "Anarchism" opportunities long before us,with a fair oul sprinkling still available in the newer EU accession States.

The main difference is in how States handle this sort of stuff,and Irelands handling of it,so far,has been .....delicate....

As many posters point out,the majority of Water Meter installations have,so far proceded apace,with some householders even getting a wee bit extra,in the sense of a repaired footpath or bit of a slope to the driveway...;)

As it currently stands,Irish Water,can legally implement a Billing Mechanism without sight or sound of a Meter....

Fast-forward to mid 2105,and the appearance of "Estimated" billing,non payment,and the inevitable due process that comes with it,and there is every chance that Liveline will be overwhelemed with callers askin "Joe,Wat's keepin Irish Water,I'm waitin 6 months now for a meter...."

The legal and administrative groundwork,has been done long ago,when only the few saddo's who watch Dáil TV were up to speed on what the divil's were at.....:D

Fast forward to 2020, when Irish Water is up for Sale and Alex not so smart has egg on his face. And we go down the failed path the UK has already well worn with private entities in charge of public commodities.


It is literally a real head scratcher how someone can think privatising our water is making ireland a more socially acceptable society.

VinLieger

KomradeBishop wrote: »

You quantify a decent quality of life, after-the-fact based on its effects on peoples personal wellbeing, not prior-to-the-fact based on whether they shop in M&S.

That's very subjective, some people can survive on less and have a better well being than other's so applying that to a fixed payment like social welfare cannot possibly work

KomradeBishop

VinLieger wrote: »

That's very subjective, some people can survive on less and have a better well being than other's so applying that to a fixed payment like social welfare cannot possibly work

It works easily, by paying people people more until a high enough percentage of them, meet quality of living standards.

crusher000

GarIT wrote: »

If I can live on €250 a month I don't see why anyone else cant either. (Excluding rent, but we do have rent allowance so that's covered)

Well if my mortgage was paid for me I'd live on less as well but it's not. My mortage has gone down but I wasn't paying property tax when I bought my house, I wasn't paying USC when I bought my house, they're wasn't water charges when I bought my house. I work in the private sector and my wages haven't gone up. Yes I've made sacrifices and I am okay with that but the finacial strains we are now facing are not of our own doing and outside our control. So how can I plan for the future if the rates and taxes that I don't know about are yet to come. Tell my child she can't have dinner 3 nights a week ?

crusher000

GarIT wrote: »

Why shouldn't it? I'd say it should why is your argument better than mine? Any reasoning?

I actually think that people not currently paying PAYE shouldn't have a vote on how the country is run.

So exclude people with dis-abilities as well and pensioners ?????? Thank god all your in charge of is your keyboard.

crusher000

Barely There wrote: »

Perhaps you could post up some actual evidence to back up these claims.
It will be interesting to compare this against the data reported on by the Irish Independent in August.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/middle-ireland-has-borne-the-brunt-of-our-austerity-years-30478154.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0410/316620-thousands-living-in-poverty-according-to-report/

crusher000

crusher000 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0410/316620-thousands-living-in-poverty-according-to-report/

http://www.thejournal.ie/inequality-austerity-ireland-1079996-Sep2013/

The report said that the poorest are hit hardest by the recession, with a “shocking array of welfare cuts and tax increases” being introduced since 2008 “that have driven more and more people into debt and poverty”.
Unemployment has also risen, and the report stated that like many other European countries, “Ireland is stricken with the twin problems of youth unemployment and chronic long-term unemployment”.
This, it said, has meant that “many of Ireland’s young adults are planning to emigrate”.
Inequality
Oxfam said in its report that income inequality in Ireland is four times the OECD average, and so the country has undertaken “an enormous effort to redistribute incomes through taxes and social transfer”

Teyla Emmagan

The crazy is very strong on this thread.

Barely There

I always find it highly amusing the people who decry the possible sale if IW to the private sector are invariable the ones complaining loudest about the inefficient way in which the current quago has been set up by the Government.

listermint

Barely There wrote: »

I always find it highly amusing the people who decry the possible sale if IW to the private sector are invariable the ones complaining loudest about the inefficient way in which the current quago has been set up by the Government.

Are people not entitled to complain about both ??



I dont understand ?

Can we not have an efficient setup of an Irish Water Mangement forum without all the lackys that go with it? without selling it into the private sector.

Or is that an unrealistic aspiration. Im confused by you're amusement.

KomradeBishop

Barely There wrote: »

I always find it highly amusing the people who decry the possible sale if IW to the private sector are invariable the ones complaining loudest about the inefficient way in which the current quago has been set up by the Government.

While you're back, making unfounded assumptions/generalizations again - care to name the communities, you were disparaging here:

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Barely There wrote: »

No, I don't and am grateful for it.

From what I can see the kind of 'communities' that the protests are taking place in correspond pretty well with the areas where long-term unemployment and social welfare lifestyle are deeply engrained.

Name those communities. This is one I know you're going to try and dodge, as if you try naming them, it will expose your massive ignorance here.

In Lonesome Dove

Deleted User wrote: »

You are a bit out...
There's 375k on the live register.
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterseptember2014/#.VDe6mss1jqA
We're below the EU average again I think.

About 3 or 4 years ago, the figure was about 450,000. So I got it wrong and the figure is 375,000 now. My bad. You do realise though that this figure of 375,000 is completely fudged?

People on the job seekers assistance going back to college/taking up training courses - they would be removed from the job seekers numbers even tough they would still get a weekly payment equivalent to their sw dole payment and once course is over they move back over to the unemployment assistance. Same thing for jobsbridge, tus, gateway schemes.

In Lonesome Dove

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

About 3 or 4 years ago, the figure was about 450,000. So I got it wrong and the figure is 375,000 now. My bad. You do realise though that this figure of 375,000 is completely fudged?

People on the job seekers assistance going back to college/taking up training courses - they would be removed from the job seekers numbers even tough they would still get a weekly payment equivalent. Same thing for jobsbridge, tus, gateway schemes.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-revenue-running-548m-ahead-of-target-1.1888268
These figures would prove that there ARE more in taxable employment. The numbers on JobBridge is capped at I think 3,000 and the number going back to college isn't great, as they get no extra money and it actually costs them to do so.

padd b1975

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It works easily, by paying people people more until a high enough percentage of them, meet quality of living standards.

.....and then sit back and watch the rate of inflation sky rocket!

jimgoose

Barely There wrote: »

I always find it highly amusing the people who decry the possible sale if IW to the private sector are invariable the ones complaining loudest about the inefficient way in which the current quago has been set up by the Government.

Fair moxy to you. It amuses me no end that the Government trots out all sorts of lies to obscure the spending of 180-odd million of your Earth Euro to get IW off the state balance-sheet, obviously with a view to selling it and hence leaving us open to getting rode side-saddle by various unknown entities after shareholder profits and with about as much interest in service provision as the half-dozen or so similar outfits in the UK who've been at that very thing for years, but that wasn't mentioned even once (I counted) in the entirety of the water charges deliberations here. Oh well!!

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Fast forward to 2020, when Irish Water is up for Sale and Alex not so smart has egg on his face. And we go down the failed path the UK has already well worn with private entities in charge of public commodities.


It is literally a real head scratcher how someone can think privatising our water is making ireland a more socially acceptable society.

jimgoose wrote: »

Fair moxy to you. It amuses me no end that the Government trots out all sorts of lies to obscure the spending of 180-odd million of your Earth Euro to get IW off the state balance-sheet, obviously with a view to selling it and hence leaving us open to getting rode side-saddle by various unknown entities after shareholder profits and with about as much interest in service provision as the half-dozen or so similar outfits in the UK who've been at that very thing for years, but that wasn't mentioned even once (I counted) in the entirety of the water charges deliberations here. Oh well!!

jimgoose

listermint wrote: »

Oops. 'Scuse me, squire!

In Lonesome Dove

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-revenue-running-548m-ahead-of-target-1.1888268
These figures would prove that there ARE more in taxable employment. The numbers on JobBridge is capped at I think 3,000 and the number going back to college isn't great, as they get no extra money and it actually costs them to do so.

There's still a huge number of people who lost work with the downturn. That's here nor there really. I brought the unemployment figure up in an earlier post because there's so many people with an ignorant perception of the unemployed eg lazy scum, drink and smoke all day, hump and get pregnant to use their babies as a way to get a free house, never worked before in their lifes. This is just not true. The majority of people unemployed lost work due to the crash.

Barely There

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

The majority of people unemployed lost work due to the crash.

Yes, and the majority of people unemployed are not out protesting the installation of watermeters.

However, it is also possibly that the majority of people protesting the installation of water meters are unemployed.

It's perfectly possible for both statements to be true - perhaps a Venn diagram would help people understand?

You can call these protestors a bunch of unemployed, self-entitled, drain on the States, without necessarily holding the view that everyone who is unemployed is a self-entitled, drain on the State.

But please, don't let this stop the hysteria and faux-outrage.

KomradeBishop

padd b1975 wrote: »

.....and then sit back and watch the rate of inflation sky rocket!

Yes, it's impossible for everyone in society to have a decent quality of life, because inflation or something...:rolleyes:

Chips Lovell

http://www.breakingnews.ie/media/images/z/zzzjoanburtonasmaryantoinetteCREDITAreamanProductions_large.jpg

renegademaster

:pac:

http://postimg.org/image/5q9drbh8z/

Idbatterim

Europes most screwed taxpayer from the lowish to middle and high paid, eventually lose patience with europes most generous welfare system, what a surprise!

renegademaster

water - check
sandwiches - check
banner - check
fully charged up nokia 106 - check

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

renegademaster

renegademaster wrote: »

water - check
sandwiches - check
banner - check
fully charged up nokia 106 - check

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Have you topped up your credit or paid your bill?

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you topped up your credit or paid your bill?

Don't forget the dodgy tracksuit and the knock off sunglasses

Idbatterim

Geuze - Workers must get better unemployment payments, better pensions, and cheaper childcare than non-workers.

response by Murphaph

Lunacy indeed. Here in Berlin we get a voucher from the city for our crèche fees. We currently need a 7 - 9 hour care per day voucher as we both work full time. We pay 169 a month and the voucher pays the other 800 or so of the real cost of the childcare.

Non working parents receive a max 4 hour a day voucher as the city rightfully recognises that they can look after their kids themselves most of the time.

Here is how a good system work, of course in Ireland we like to reward the work shy and hit the workers. The difference is it simply wouldnt be tolerated to this extent anywhere else. Fairness here is based on how many votes you can buy, thats it!