Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

Classicporter

paddy1990 wrote: »

Some of us value our time and don't particularly enjoy running around getting rejected over and over, which would lead to a bad reputation in relatively small town but each to their own. I don't doubt a huge numbers game would work. It's the time/effort involved, plus the constant rejection, that puts off a lot of guys I'd say. I do well from online dating so I would have absolutely no desire to run around getting rejected but I have met girls in shops/streets, all when they smiled at me first.

Rejection doesn't really bother me, I don't see approaching women as "work". To me it's fun.

paddy1990

Deleted User wrote: »

Not exactly that, a quick lean-back on a night out is all I need. :P If it's someone I've been getting to know or when people say that my physical appearance doesn't matter that much, it's those lies that annoy me. :P

I understand. Studies have shown that when asked controversial questions like do looks matter for example, women are generally unable to give independent or honest introspective answers, or come to a conclusion in conflict with cultural norms and values.

1. Hadjistavropoulos et al (1994) proved that there is a mistaken social construct tend to underestimation of the role of physical attractiveness in male mate value. 80 female undergraduates were shown profiles containing photographs and information about the personalities of potential male dating partners and were asked to state the dating desirability of each target person. Subsequently, were asked to introspect about the factors that affected their dating preferences and they tended to intentionally underreport the impact of physical attractiveness on their preferences. It seems that female mindsets are very influenced by a social or cultural taboo. Women tend to underestimate in questionnaires the importance of male attractiveness. They are conditioned, consciously or unconsciously, to express a politically correct choice and thus they do not wish to be perceived as “shallow”.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cbs/26/2/298/


So it's understandable when you look at the studies.

I wonder if a female mod will reprimand me for posting a STUDY like this. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if a male feminist mod took issue with it. lol

Daveysil15

paddy1990 wrote: »

The first reply practically explained it to you but years later you still haven't got it.

There is no problem with approaching a woman ANYWHERE, in Tesco, on the street, in a shop etc.

The prerequisite is that she has given you some kind of signal e.g eye contact/smile. If that isn't happening, then approaching them is a no no.

Back up there for a minute paddy. Did I say I didn't "get it?" I never said there was a problem with it either. I was just posting a link to a thread, which as I said, was pretty much divided on the subject. Jasus you don't half jump to conclusions.

paddy1990

Classicporter wrote: »

Rejection doesn't really bother me, I don't see approaching women as "work". To me it's fun.

PUA ALERT.

lol, stop kidding yourself. Rejection bothers most males.

JimBobPlayer

If you're needy, posessive, jealous, domineering, angry or violent, then yes, you should be on your own.

paddy1990

Deleted User wrote: »

The morbid obesity and baldness. :P

Knowing how shallow women are, you should now work on getting the weight down and getting a hair transplant.

pwurple

paddy1990 wrote: »

Knowing how shallow women are, you should now work on getting the weight down and getting a hair transplant.

:rolleyes:

Classicporter

paddy1990 wrote: »

PUA ALERT.

lol, stop kidding yourself. Rejection bothers most males.

Yes it bothers most males, and it used to bother me, but not anymore, when you accept yourself it can't bother you. Seeing someone else get rejected has the same effect on me aso being rejected.

Classicporter

paddy1990 wrote: »

Knowing how shallow women are, you should now work on getting the weight down and getting a hair transplant.

People are attracted to what they're attracted to, it's arbitrary to say being attracted to particular traits is shallow. If you define being attracted to good looks as shallow then men are more shallow than women. Personality is the most powerful factor in attracting women in my opinion. Look at Gordon Ramsay for example, that is one ugly man, yet countless women have soaked their underwear thinking about him.

TheBeardedLady

pwurple wrote: »

:rolleyes:

A comment that can only be made by a man with no genuine experience of women. :-)

Piliger

paddy1990 wrote: »

PUA ALERT.

lol, stop kidding yourself. Rejection bothers most males.

And females. And replace most will all

kiffer

Classicporter wrote: »

Rejection doesn't really bother me, I don't see approaching women as "work". To me it's fun.

Yeah, and spiders don't bother me at all... and I make sure to tell arachnophobic people that all the time, works a treat they all say "why didn't I think of that, just don't let it bother me".

paddy1990

Classicporter wrote: »

People are attracted to what they're attracted to, it's arbitrary to say being attracted to particular traits is shallow. If you define being attracted to good looks as shallow then men are more shallow than women. Personality is the most powerful factor in attracting women in my opinion. Look at Gordon Ramsay for example, that is one ugly man, yet countless women have soaked their underwear thinking about him.

Ramseys money and fame might have something to do with it?

If you can show me several ugly men with no money or fame with really attractive girlfriends i will listen.

Stories about "this guy i know" dont count.

paddy1990

kiffer wrote: »

Yeah, and spiders don't bother me at all... and I make sure to tell arachnophobic people that all the time, works a treat they all say "why didn't I think of that, just don't let it bother me".

If youre a healthy human being, rejection isnt nice. Its not normal to not care about being rejected.

I think that guy has swallowed the pua handbook and is regurgitating their delusional beliefs.

Wibbs

Classicporter wrote: »

People are attracted to what they're attracted to, it's arbitrary to say being attracted to particular traits is shallow.

True and true.

If you define being attracted to good looks as shallow then men are more shallow than women.

I'd disagree myself. They're about equal. People are "shallow" about looks or not. However I would agree with previous folks saying that women are less likely to announce it. Though enough men will claim in an actual social setting in a mixed group that they "go just as much/more for personality". I have found that men who do this are either men who have little enough choice in how many women they attract or at the other end men who have plenty of choice. Men in the middle are more likely to be honest about it. As a very general rule of course. Most of the time people don't want to come across as dick socially, so will smooth over some obvious social interactions that don't meet the social facade built up in any society. However, social pressure, pressure to be nice, to kowtow to the social niceties etc is generally higher for women.

Personality is the most powerful factor in attracting women in my opinion.

It's definitely a large part of the equation, but on first encounter looks and social confidence(which usually means social maturity, dexterity and "power") are more important. In the online dating arena with its almost entirely visual message(and it's a sausage fest) looks are paramount.

Look at Gordon Ramsay for example, that is one ugly man, yet countless women have soaked their underwear thinking about him.

Actually he's not an "ugly man" by any stretch of the imagination. He's not an obvious "hunk" to men, but enough women would find him physically attractive. He's 6ft tall, well built, regular and rugged of face in a rugger bugger fashion, socially confident to a fault, driven and passionate about his work and very successful at this work. Hell he can cook. Gordon Ramsey is about as far from "one ugly man" as you could get outside the realm of male models and film stars and in many settings he'd scare off one dimensional male models and actors in seconds.

Wibbs

paddy1990 wrote: »

If youre a healthy human being, rejection isnt nice. Its not normal to not care about being rejected.

I dunno P. For me anyway* there are levels of rejection care. Random woman I say hello to rejects me? I think; "eh... OK. No biggie". If she does so in a nasty way I genuinely think "bullet fcuking dodged there. Clearly a saddo who can't control herself or her public face". Rejection from a woman I know and have already started something with? Way different story. That's a kick in the heartnutz alright. A relationship breakup? Hell I'm breaking out the Ben & Jerrys, the vino, watching sad flics and listening to sad songs wallowing in my own misery like the best of them.

But I see those two examples as very different things. In the first example with a stranger I have little if anything invested emotionally. Sure I've taken a "risk" by saying hello and engaging, but let's face it folks that's hardly running across No mans land in Ypres as far as risks go. Plus I keep in mind, mostly on a subconscious level I suppose, that I've also been accepted by women, had a nice chat(which is nice), maybe something more, a bit of an oul snog, a flingette or even forged a relationship from such encounters.

I dunno, for me as I said, getting too bound up in rejection with a stranger is akin to betting on a horse and crying about it before the race is even run. It just never made sense to me. I do recall a particular incident when I was about 22. I had a date with this woman who was a bit of a roide in fairness. Got lots of attention. Anyway she essentially asked me out on said date**. Well... I was so thick at the time she had to. But it was a disaster. Long silences, awkward as fook. Cold as a fridge by the end. So I was walking home from the pub and I really got very down about it. I had "missed my chance" with this "babe'. I was near close to tears I don't mind admitting. Got home and was commiserating with my dog as you do. And while he was looking at me with big doggie eyes wondering "poor bastard, but why isn't monkey boy feeding me biccies", it hit me. I hadn't lost anything. She had agreed, even pushed for a date with me, but it didn't work, we didn't work, we just didn't gel as people/I was a nervous gobshíte/she was the same. And I realised too that she was boring as fook. Drying paint time. All she has was her great bod and face. At least with me. She might have been well suited to another(actually with hindsight, no, she was boring as fook and all she had was her nice arse) So why was I so upset? A little upset was fine, but not to that degree. TBH the date and her might have been a dead loss, but I'm grateful to her for that night. Made one helluva diff in my life from then on.







*though it's already been hinted/suggested I'm a sociopath on this thread.

** Why? I wasn't the best looking in my group. I was about middling I'd say. However I was one of the keystones of the group. If I left the group would have dissipated. My suggestions for venues was generally the one listened to, that sort of thing. I suppose I had "social power".

pwurple

paddy1990 wrote: »

Ramseys money and fame might have something to do with it?

If you can show me several ugly men with no money or fame with really attractive girlfriends i will listen.

Stories about "this guy i know" dont count.

There are millions of overweight balding men with wives and children.

Ya know, meaningful family relationships. Procreation. Successful passing of genes onto next generation.


But you count success as a trophy girlfriend?

macplato

Wibbs wrote: »

(...)

Actually he's not an "ugly man" by any stretch of the imagination. He's not an obvious "hunk" to men, but enough women would find him physically attractive. He's 6ft tall, well built, regular and rugged of face in a rugger bugger fashion, socially confident to a fault, driven and passionate about his work and very successful at this work. Hell he can cook. Gordon Ramsey is about as far from "one ugly man" as you could get outside the realm of male models and film stars and in many settings he'd scare off one dimensional male models and actors in seconds.

I think what you said here, Wibbs, points to something very important. Coincidentally, I've been wondering over the last few days, whether Gordon Ramsey is a good-looking man or not. Is he attractive? Oh, hell yeah. But is he good-looking? I can't really tell. All the things that you listed: his drive, passion, skill, confidence, etc., make the way he looks quite irrelevant, to the point that I (and I think many others, too) can't really judge his physical appearance without taking into account his attractiveness. Would he be considered good-looking if he wasn't so attractive? I don't know, but somehow I don't think so.

I've heard this so many times from friends and acquaintances about people they were interested in: "He/she isn't that good looking, but he/she is so attractive". I think some people are able to make a distinction between good-looks and attractiveness, but many others just mix the two up (I know I do). And here is the point: while we are largely helpless about our physical beauty, there is absolutely no excuse for not being/not working towards being attractive. In my book, if you are unattractive, you are a lazy, cowardly git, and once you are an adult, you have only yourself to blame for lack of social success. It sound harsh, I know, but the thing is - any time is good to start making changes, to start working towards becoming an attractive human being, and the OP (let's not forget the OP! :pac:) is doing exactly that. You've already earned respect and admiration from many people on this thread, OP, and that is a great start!

Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone? Totally. Get rid of that kind of thinking, keep doing what you are doing, go to counseling if you need to, and you'll be fine. Nobody should be alone, unless they choose it.

Gmol

Op I think the fact that so many people are on this thread point to the fact that many feel the same as you. Most people have insecurities and strengths. You need to work harder than most on making relationships with your acquaintances and increasing social circle, it might be worthwhile organising a meet up with people on here to build up a social group and build confidence. Best of luck.

paddy1990

pwurple wrote: »

There are millions of overweight balding men with wives and children.

Ya know, meaningful family relationships. Procreation. Successful passing of genes onto next generation.


But you count success as a trophy girlfriend?

An attractive woman is now a "trophy girlfriend"?

paddy1990

macplato wrote: »

I think what you said here, Wibbs, points to something very important. Coincidentally, I've been wondering over the last few days, whether Gordon Ramsey is a good-looking man or not. Is he attractive? Oh, hell yeah. But is he good-looking? I can't really tell. All the things that you listed: his drive, passion, skill, confidence, etc., make the way he looks quite irrelevant, to the point that I (and I think many others, too) can't really judge his physical appearance without taking into account his attractiveness. Would he be considered good-looking if he wasn't so attractive? I don't know, but somehow I don't think so.

I've heard this so many times from friends and acquaintances about people they were interested in: "He/she isn't that good looking, but he/she is so attractive". I think some people are able to make a distinction between good-looks and attractiveness, but many others just mix the two up (I know I do). And here is the point: while we are largely helpless about our physical beauty, there is absolutely no excuse for not being/not working towards being attractive. In my book, if you are unattractive, you are a lazy, cowardly git, and once you are an adult, you have only yourself to blame for lack of social success. It sound harsh, I know, but the thing is - any time is good to start making changes, to start working towards becoming an attractive human being, and the OP (let's not forget the OP! :pac:) is doing exactly that. You've already earned respect and admiration from many people on this thread, OP, and that is a great start!

Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone? Totally. Get rid of that kind of thinking, keep doing what you are doing, go to counseling if you need to, and you'll be fine. Nobody should be alone, unless they choose it.

Actually for many men it's not their fault they are unattractive and thus it's not their fault they are finding it very difficult to get into a meaningful relationship these days.

The whole "it's all your fault" mentality is the one I take biggest issue with.

paddy1990

Wibbs wrote: »

I dunno P. For me anyway* there are levels of rejection care. Random woman I say hello to rejects me? I think; "eh... OK. No biggie". If she does so in a nasty way I genuinely think "bullet fcuking dodged there. Clearly a saddo who can't control herself or her public face". Rejection from a woman I know and have already started something with? Way different story. That's a kick in the heartnutz alright. A relationship breakup? Hell I'm breaking out the Ben & Jerrys, the vino, watching sad flics and listening to sad songs wallowing in my own misery like the best of them.

But I see those two examples as very different things. In the first example with a stranger I have little if anything invested emotionally. Sure I've taken a "risk" by saying hello and engaging, but let's face it folks that's hardly running across No mans land in Ypres as far as risks go. Plus I keep in mind, mostly on a subconscious level I suppose, that I've also been accepted by women, had a nice chat(which is nice), maybe something more, a bit of an oul snog, a flingette or even forged a relationship from such encounters.

I dunno, for me as I said, getting too bound up in rejection with a stranger is akin to betting on a horse and crying about it before the race is even run. It just never made sense to me. I do recall a particular incident when I was about 22. I had a date with this woman who was a bit of a roide in fairness. Got lots of attention. Anyway she essentially asked me out on said date**. Well... I was so thick at the time she had to. But it was a disaster. Long silences, awkward as fook. Cold as a fridge by the end. So I was walking home from the pub and I really got very down about it. I had "missed my chance" with this "babe'. I was near close to tears I don't mind admitting. Got home and was commiserating with my dog as you do. And while he was looking at me with big doggie eyes wondering "poor bastard, but why isn't monkey boy feeding me biccies", it hit me. I hadn't lost anything. She had agreed, even pushed for a date with me, but it didn't work, we didn't work, we just didn't gel as people/I was a nervous gobshíte/she was the same. And I realised too that she was boring as fook. Drying paint time. All she has was her great bod and face. At least with me. She might have been well suited to another(actually with hindsight, no, she was boring as fook and all she had was her nice arse) So why was I so upset? A little upset was fine, but not to that degree. TBH the date and her might have been a dead loss, but I'm grateful to her for that night. Made one helluva diff in my life from then on.







*though it's already been hinted/suggested I'm a sociopath on this thread.

** Why? I wasn't the best looking in my group. I was about middling I'd say. However I was one of the keystones of the group. If I left the group would have dissipated. My suggestions for venues was generally the one listened to, that sort of thing. I suppose I had "social power".

Intellectually I'd agree that rejections from randomers shouldn't be too devastating. That makes sense intellectually, but, emotionally it does hurt. And if it keeps on recurring, I can see how some guys would get down about it. At the end of the day, you can dress it up any way you like when you get rejected, but the end result is that the person just wasn't interested in you and what you had to offer and at some level, that does hurt.

macplato

paddy1990 wrote: »

Actually for many men it's not their fault they are unattractive and thus it's not their fault they are finding it very difficult to get into a meaningful relationship these days.

The whole "it's all your fault" mentality is the one I take biggest issue with.

I disagree with that. I've seen too many people, men and women, who managed to transform themselves from timid, mediocre, depressed, struggling individuals into fascinating, strong, irresistible human beings - right in front of my eyes - to have a view as fatalistic as yours. Each time, it only took a few months of extremely hard work to begin a lasting change. And I'm not talking here about ego-pumping techniques, it's all about passion and self-worth, something we all have control over.

TheBeardedLady

macplato wrote: »

I think what you said here, Wibbs, points to something very important. Coincidentally, I've been wondering over the last few days, whether Gordon Ramsey is a good-looking man or not. Is he attractive? Oh, hell yeah. But is he good-looking? I can't really tell. All the things that you listed: his drive, passion, skill, confidence, etc., make the way he looks quite irrelevant, to the point that I (and I think many others, too) can't really judge his physical appearance without taking into account his attractiveness. Would he be considered good-looking if he wasn't so attractive? I don't know, but somehow I don't think so.

I've heard this so many times from friends and acquaintances about people they were interested in: "He/she isn't that good looking, but he/she is so attractive". I think some people are able to make a distinction between good-looks and attractiveness, but many others just mix the two up (I know I do). And here is the point: while we are largely helpless about our physical beauty, there is absolutely no excuse for not being/not working towards being attractive. In my book, if you are unattractive, you are a lazy, cowardly git, and once you are an adult, you have only yourself to blame for lack of social success. It sound harsh, I know, but the thing is - any time is good to start making changes, to start working towards becoming an attractive human being, and the OP (let's not forget the OP! :pac:) is doing exactly that. You've already earned respect and admiration from many people on this thread, OP, and that is a great start!

Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone? Totally. Get rid of that kind of thinking, keep doing what you are doing, go to counseling if you need to, and you'll be fine. Nobody should be alone, unless they choose it.

I was with you 'till the end then the harsh bit seemed a bit too harsh for my liking.


Tbh, if men had to describe HONESTLY what they found attractive in a woman without listing off physical attributes, would those lists match the lists of every other men out there?

I genuinely don't find Gordon Ramsey attractive. My step-mam does on the other hand as do a few of my friends.

Speaking personally, the physical side to attraction I could pretty much get fairly right on a night out with nice clothes, a bit of make up, some (not a huge amount) of boobaloob showing (for example), hair done nicely but the rest of it I reckon is down to the auld luck in most cases. It's the "je ne sais quoi"that people talk about. It has fcuk all to do with laziness or cowardice and is more down to the fact that you simply have it or you don't in most cases but that "it" and what it constitutes varies from person to person, so it's impossible to strive for no matter how "hard" or "brave" you are.



I'm open to being corrected though.

paddy1990

macplato wrote: »

I disagree with that. I've seen too many people, men and women, who managed to transform themselves from timid, mediocre, depressed, struggling individuals into fascinating, strong, irresistible human beings - right in front of my eyes - to have a view as fatalistic as yours. Each time, it only took a few months of extremely hard work to begin a lasting change. And I'm not talking here about ego-pumping techniques, it's all about passion and self-worth, something we all have control over.

I'm afraid all the confidence in the world can't make up for a poor facial bone structure, poor height, being old etc.

In my opinion these things by and large are what make or break it.

Some guys are genuinely autistic/aspergers, which is a neurological impediment towards socializing.

Also, laziness it can be argued (and backed up by some interesting scientific studies), is a genetic predisposition.

I'd say all men can work to look as good as they can and put themselves out there. But it's far too optimistic to say that they are guaranteed success if they do that and it's downright wrong, and in my opinion, appalling, to blame them for a lack of success if it doesn't happen, because at the end of the day, women are not machines and if she is doesn't find the guy attractive in the slightest, there is no configuration of buttons to press to make it happen - it's game over.

Unless he's got significant money or status.

Piliger

macplato wrote: »

I disagree with that. I've seen too many people, men and women, who managed to transform themselves from timid, mediocre, depressed, struggling individuals into fascinating, strong, irresistible human beings - right in front of my eyes - to have a view as fatalistic as yours. Each time, it only took a few months of extremely hard work to begin a lasting change. And I'm not talking here about ego-pumping techniques, it's all about passion and self-worth, something we all have control over.

I have no doubt that if men (and many women too) had access to classes and lessons and practice and quality instruction .... that would indeed be true.
Most of us blunder through life trying to figure the sh1t out as we go along, at the same time as all of the other challenges we are faced with.

Unfortunately this is a MASSIVE gap in adult education in all cultures imho. The teaching and instruction on human relations and interaction for those who find it damned difficult. And that number is very high imho.

macplato

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

I was with you 'till the end then the harsh bit seemed a bit too harsh for my liking.


Tbh, if men had to describe HONESTLY what they found attractive in a woman without listing off physical attributes, would those lists match the lists of every other men out there?

I genuinely don't find Gordon Ramsey attractive. My step-mam does on the other hand as do a few of my friends.

Speaking personally, the physical side to attraction I could pretty much get fairly right on a night out with nice clothes, a bit of make up, some (not a huge amount) of boobaloob showing (for example), hair done nicely but the rest of it I reckon is down to the auld luck in most cases. It's the "je ne sais quoi"that people talk about. It has fcuk all to do with laziness or cowardice and is more down to the fact that you simply have it or you don't in most cases but that "it" and what it constitutes varies from person to person, so it's impossible to strive for no matter how "hard" or "brave" you are.



I'm open to being corrected though.

I was 15 years old, when I met the first person who made this incredible transformation I mentioned in my previous post. We were in the same year in high school, and lived not too far away from each other. She struggled in school really badly. She was socially awkward, somewhat eccentric, and because of that often laughed at. She was often described as ugly, the left side of her body didn't seem to match the right side, and she was large and boney.

She struggled so badly, her mother wanted to remove her from the school, and transfer her to some more "appropriate" educational facility. At this point the girl decided to take her own life. Her attempt was unsuccessful, and she experienced a lot of shaming and rejection from her family because of "what she put them through". It was at this point that she realised she was completely alone in this world. She was too scared to make another unsuccessful suicide attempt, even though she desperately wanted to die, so instead, she decided to "show them".

She started studying with all her might. At the end of that year, she was right at the top of the class (top 5, I think). French, English and History - subjects that she was absolutely hopeless at before, were now her strongest ones. She was still viewed as ugly and weird, but she didn't care, she was strong now, because she decided to be strong. And bhoy was she beautiful at that!

We became friends around that time. I found out she had a secret passion - ballet. She never trained to be a dancer, and at 15 she clearly missed the boat on that. But again, she didn't care. She was ashamed of having this passion before, with her curiously looking body, and all, but not anymore. She found a dance school, and after taking private lessons for a few months, she was allowed to join the group. I don't remember how long it took, not longer than 2-3 years though, and she handed me tickets to one of the largest opera houses in the country - for her first performance. It was a minor role, and she made a noticeable mistake towards the end of the show, but again - she didn't care, she just kept on going. After high school, she got accepted to the most prominent dance college in the whole country - with her ugly face, mismatched sides of her body, huge feet and absolutely irresistible personality. She got married and created a family too.

Yes, I accept that often you have to hit the rock bottom, to bounce up. God knows I had to hit it a few times myself, to finally get the message that I'm in charge of my life. The thing is, many people don't take enough risks to even give themselves a chance to hit that rock bottom - they are too scared of the pain. This is where courage comes in - if life didn't hurt, if it wasn't scary, there would be no need for it. Anyone with a bit of life experience knows, that there is hidden value in pain, but if someone is not willing to be brave, to take risks, to fall, to fall apart, then they can hardly expect to harness that value - to learn who they are, and what they are made of. They can hardly learn the elusive lesson of self-respect and self-admiration - for putting themselves and their lives back together - if they never allowed themselves to fall apart in the first place.

Y2KBOS86

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

It is true about Polish men expecting the woman to do all the housework, that's the way things are over in Poland, it's kinda like Ireland was 25 years ago.

No it's not.

Piliger

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

No it's not.

Which ?

EdenHazard

I wish looks were everything, I have a nice but maybe 'boring' personality for girls. Kinda annoying seeing ugly guys with status get girls but what can you do? Least I can say I'm good looking All I can say is Tinder is a godsend, it eliminates status and puts all the power in looks.