Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

SharpshooterTom

I'm just beginning to wonder about this because I've recently turned 28 (so I'm not exactly a kid anymore) and I've never been in a relationship, never kissed a girl, and and yes not surprisingly I'm still a virgin LOL. And whats more depressing is that I've never been remotely close in actually having any of those experiences!

If I am being hoenst I've been plagued with all sorts of social problems throughout my teenage years and adult life, social anxiety (putting people off me as if I smell of B.O.) which lead to me socially avoiding people (I felt I was so unappealing to people I felt I had no choice) and so a viscous cycle had then ensured. This continued throughout school and university to the point where I snapped and fell into deep depression and few years back (extremely low self esteem) I attempted suicide.

I got help though with therapy and CBT (I used to post in the depression thread in AH and people there were a great help!), so I'm ok now, I'm improving aspects of my life. But I've still not yet improved aspects of my social life greatly in any real way. Sure I'm not as socially anxious, and certainly not socially avoidant, but I still don't have any real friends. I get the impression I'm just not that appealing as a person and perhaps its the way its meant to be.

I mean in the 40 year old virgin, he at least he had a happy ending, unless I went to an escort, there's every chance I'm probably going to die this way! :eek:

Is it too self defeatist to suggest that some men, whether they like it or not, are destined to be alone for the rest of their lives? Is it too unrealistic for some us to contemplate a relationship?

Lucifer MorningStar

Have you tried online dating Tom ? If not you should give it a go, nothing to lose

OP, it's a huge fear of mine.

I'm 30 in a few weeks and while I have been kissed and had casual sex a couple of times (which left me feeling filthy afterwards), I've never managed to go beyond about three weeks and a couple of dates. So I really am feeling like that's it for me.

I think my problem is that when things do go well, I become obsessed with her and can end up pushing her away as a result. Try as I might, I never seem to be able to change this so I'm beginning to think I'm not capable of it and that I probably will end up alone forever. I'm still going to try though.

Meanwhile, I'm due to go back to counselling again next month.

ancapailldorcha

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Is it too self defeatist to suggest that some men, whether they like it or not, are destined to be alone for the rest of their lives? Is it too unrealistic for some us to contemplate a relationship?

I'm in a similar boat to you, OP. I'm going to answer yes to the bit of your post that I've quoted above.

What follows is my own opinion along with advice I've received from members of the fairer sex.

I'd address the hygiene issue ASAP if I were you. I'm guessing you already have. A visit to your GP might be prudent but I'll leave that there.

I know what it's like to pity myself. It's like a spider in a bath. Easy to fall in, not so easy to escape. Fair dues to you for seeking help. That's a difficult thing to do, given that your situation sounds horrible. I was lucky that my GP seemed to know what I was on about and said my "depression" was more likely down to loneliness than an underlying issue.

Regarding self-improvement, how are you attempting this? Personally, I'm trying to read more books, meet new people and try new things. I shed 2.5 stone last year and my confidence improved quite a bit. I picked up a book of local walks and went for a nice stroll along the Chichester canal today. Meeting new people constantly can be tiring, especially when you're not doing the same course at University or those days are behind you. I believe you need to be happy with yourself before someone else will find you attractive. Presentation is important. You could try dressing better. I'm no expert though. Also, you need to be interesting. Try reading more, taking up a hobby or better still, TRAVEL!! Travelling's amazing. You get to see new places, talk to people you'd never meet otherwise and gain massive boosts to your confidence. If you're single, you've no restrictions and can do as you please.

I'm sure other posters, like Wibbs will have better advice but the above is my 2 cents.

lamegerty

Yep, I think you're being a bit defeatist, you're only young yet so you've forever to meet someone and it sounds like you're only ready now so try not to give yourself such a hard time about it.

However, if you want a relationship you'll have to go out and make an effort. Try a method that suits you or appeals to you for meeting people, and remember if you meet people as friends you'll meet others through them. Meetup groups or online dating are what a lot of people use, meetup groups or sports/hobby clubs in your area are a great way to go as you'll at least have something in common with the other people plus you get to enjoy yourself doing something you like without a whole load of pressure of feeling that if you talk to someone it must mean something more than what you're talking about. It's always worth making the effort to initiate the conversation too, everyone likes someone else to start the conversation and show some interest, and it's better than hanging around waiting for someone to talk to you. It sounds like you're doing really well after everything you've been through so I've no doubt you're well capable of meeting people, having a bit of fun, making friends and one day a relationship or a few. Best of luck.

Mike747

Well sounds like you've already done a lot of the hard work. You've got your head together. It's vital you ditch any negative thinking. You're priority now is to get laid a couple of times so you can see that sex and women are no big deal, after that you can worry about finding a relationship.

You might think you could never go out and score. Of course you can but you'll have to work on yourself mentally and physically first.

I can recommend a very good book to help learn to pick up women. You won't have to dress like a retard or do magic tricks like any of that pua ****. Let me know if you want it and I can pm it to you.

Mike747

Lucifer MorningStar wrote: »

Have you tried online dating Tom ? If not you should give it a go, nothing to lose

In my opinion online dating is a waste of time for men. Unless maybe you're ridiculous good looking.

ancapailldorcha

Mike747 wrote: »

In my opinion online dating is a waste of time for men. Unless maybe you're ridiculous good looking.

I'm going to disagree with you. While you do need a thick skin and grit, it can be a great way to meet people you'd otherwise have no chance of meeting.

Mike747

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm going to disagree with you. While you do need a thick skin and grit, it can be a great way to meet people you'd otherwise have no chance of meeting.

Seems like any half decent girl on a dating website is going to be inundated with messages so it's going to be hard to stand out. But if it works for you go for it.

TimeToShine

Mike747 wrote: »

Well sounds like you've already done a lot of the hard work. You've got your head together. It's vital you ditch any negative thinking. You're priority now is to get laid a couple of times so you can see that sex and women are no big deal, after that you can worry about finding a relationship.

You might think you could never go out and score. Of course you can but you'll have to work on yourself mentally and physically first.

I can recommend a very good book to help learn to pick up women. You won't have to dress like a retard or do magic tricks like any of that pua ****. Let me know if you want it and I can pm it to you.

PUA is the last thing he needs me thinks. He's not 19.

Boskowski

Do you really think only ridiculously good looking people do online dating?
I mean when you walk out onto the streets how many ridiculously good looking people do you see?
Scratch that. How many actually 'just' good looking people do you see?
There you go. Not many at all. Most people look just normal enough.
You really think all these not so fantastic looking people are all no hopers?
That's not how the world works.
I think when you find yourself in a bad spot it's usually not half as bad as make it to be in your own head.

Mike747

TimeToShine wrote: »

PUA is the last thing he needs me thinks. He's not 19.

Ok we can all just tell him 'just be yourself and an amazing woman will walk into your life'.

Anyway the book I have in mind is far removed from the typical pua stuff. It helped me immensely. It's about improving all aspects of your life and learning to pick up women like a normal person.

ancapailldorcha

Mike747 wrote: »

Ok we can all just tell him 'just be yourself and an amazing woman will walk into your life'.

Anyway the book I have in mind is far removed from the typical pua stuff. It helped me immensely. It's about improving all aspects of your life and learning to pick up women like a normal person.

Out of curiosity, what book were you going to recommend?

Mike747

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what book were you going to recommend?

PM'd it to you.

Shakespeare's Sister

You'd be surprised at how much more common your experiences are OP (and anyone else on this thread in the same boat). Maybe not to the same extent, but elements of them definitely. Keep going for counselling.

Some of it is likely to be you subconsciously sabotaging your chances. You can be sure there are other people who look the way you do (I'm assuming you're just average-looking, as are most people) or are less good-looking (I have very very rarely seen a truly "ugly" person) but because they don't have such cripplingly low self esteem they don't encounter these difficulties.

Why are you not as "good" as others? You are. It's just that you're encountering obstacles created by your subconscious - I'm not blaming you, because your subconscious isn't an easy thing to control. It's not voluntary.
Whenever we go through stints of lower self esteem, we put up a wall - that's normal after a break-up, rejection or when not feeling attractive or whatever. But in your case it's an ongoing thing, however with enough counselling and working on your confidence, the cycle can be broken. It's not easy, but it's possible. And I've no doubt it feels like a big deal to be a virgin at 28 but it's not actually that big a deal in the greater scheme of things. You're still fairly young.
Best wishes to you.

Bafucin

It's not defeatist it's the truth.

For both sexes. I am not meant to be. Infact I would say I do anything to 'get out of being alone'. Which is not good for other reasons.

I have been in love 4 times in my life and even been engaged once. I have a high sex drive and like being in relationships for the most part.
Don't be ashamed of it it's only a problem if you are unhappy with it.

Are you alone in life? Do you have many friends of both genders? If not then yes I would wager you need some help.


I have to be honest here though and say a lot of people neglect to tell people that relationships and friendships take a lot of work and energy. And you need to make sure you are well enough to give that.



Take care OP. Hang in there.

Shakespeare's Sister

I agree with some of the above: it's best to love yourself first and foremost before embarking on a relationship.

Baked.noodle

I wouldn't give up on meeting someone but I think it's fair to say some men aren't attractive enough to get laid. I'm not saying this is the case for you, but it is a fact of life. If you are approaching thirty and have yet to have a sexual encounter I think it is reasonable to visit Amsterdam I don't believe it is immoral as long as she isn't a sex slave or junky. It's not right for you to not have this experience in your one and only life, and throughout history boys have become men in this fashion countless times. I'm no expert on relationships but I can tell you it can be a nightmare and many married people are deeply unhappy. I would aim to have friends first and go from there. Good luck.

Shakespeare's Sister

Yeh I don't see an issue with availing of an escort's services - provided you feel ok about it. It can be a bigger step for some than for others.

Bafucin

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Yeh I don't see an issue with availing of an escort's services - provided you feel ok about it. It can be a bigger step for some than for others.

I wouldn't have an issue with that morally i think people should be free to choose. But it won't solve the OP's problems. And people tend to become dependent on them I've noticed, they should not be used as a crutch.

Hookers are an expensive habit.

No harm once and a while though.

pwurple

If you are happy being single, then that's fine. Plenty of people don't want or need partners.

If you are unhappy with it though, then it really is all about self esteem.

Captain Chaos

I could have almost posted what you did OP, I'm almost in the same boat as you. I'm 29 in a few weeks and I've never had a girlfriend or had sex. I'd had my first proper kiss when I was 23 and then of close contact with a woman for another 4 years. Last year I dated two woman who actually showed interest in me first but they both only lasted 4-5 dates and then just want to be friends after they see I'm not whatever it is they thought I was in the first place. I do approach women, though not very often and do ask them out but all kindly say no thanks so it's not like I'm waiting for them to jump at me.

What does not really help me cause either is that I don't like loud and very crowded places, I don't like going out for a night having to shout all the time and having people constantly knocking into you spilling drink all over. Also I have next to no interests, not into sports, music, watching TV or anything really. Basically I just work to live and don't have time for any interests if I did happen to have any.

When we are out in groups and the lads go off and I'm left sitting with their girlfriends we get on great and they are all around me and we get a good laugh and a good bit of flirting going on but I'm not hitting on them. The odd time they do turn around to me and ask why and how am I still single and then they start listing me good points and how I'm not like the type of guys they would not go near--- all that sort of drunk ramblings pity talk basically. I just feel awkward when they start going down that road.

My parents used to joke to me about turning them into grand parents and having to look after my kids etc... but in the past year or so I think the penny has finally dropped that I won't ever get in that situation and the jokes have stopped. I keep being told to put myself out there and go on holidays etc. I hate the night life in Ireland, I don't like going out and as it is I can't afford it or have the time for it anymore, I haven't left the country in 4 years to go on holiday as I don't really enjoy traveling and the cost involved.

Basically I have just said feck it and don't care anymore, just get up every day, work, pay bills, rince, repeat and wait till I reach 68.

Export

OP - It's giving up. You know that. With your CBT and counselling, have you found the source of your low self esteem?

Wibbs

Not easy for you ThomasFlynn. The social anxiety is gonna be the major block IMH. Make some improvements there and much of the rest will fall into place. Fair play with the counseling and the CBT, in time that should make a big diff.

Build non romantic relationships and social circle first I reckon. Both sexes. That should help with just hanging out with and socialising with people in general, without the stress of trying to "chat someone up". Trying to do the latter without the former in place is likely doomed to set you back. You're bound to have setbacks, but everyone does, however if you're already kicking off from a place of social fear, feelings of social inadequacy and that sorta thing that's really gonna compound things for you. You may focus on the setbacks and rinse and repeat. Try and talk to someone new everyday. Postman, men and women at work that sorta thing. People are everywhere. Like rats they are. You don't need full on convos just small talk shíte. While small talk can be irritating it is a social shorthand in most peoples repertoire. Not having a faculty for it will challenge you socially.

Physical things? Few people are supermodels and yet the majority can end up in relationships. Hell there are some blokes that wouldn't look out of place living under bridges waylaying passers by who do alright, even well. Still you can up your odds. How do you dress? Are you still dressing the same way you did at 14 kinda thing? There are lots of tips online for rejigging your wardrobe. Think of it as social armour. Don't go full on fashion disaster just casual with a hint of sophistication. Mates can help you out here. Women mates are often a better bet at knowing what works. Decent shoes a given. If you're carrying extra fat then diet and activities that disguise exercise can help there and will make you feel better to boot. Even better if they're social activities. Doesn't have to be both genders involved either. Joining a GAA or soccer club are good ones. Cycling and jogging others. Hair. If nature's harvesters have been at work and you've more skin than hair then cut it tight. Combovers or wispy mullets help no one. If not and you're still rocking grass on the pitch then a change of haircut could really help. Facial hair. Avoid excess. Full on hipster looks grand if you're a 19th century miner, but otherwise few men can really pull it off. Goes for fancy beard patterns too. Moustaches only look good on Tom Selleck and Hitler and I'm not sure about Hitler. Either clean shaven or short beard. The latter helps frame a face and matures a baby face nicely. Neckbeards must be destroyed on sight. Glasses wearer? Try another style that will help frame your face better. The salesfolk in shops for speccies will help there, again I'd suggest a sales type of the female persuasion.

Shakespeare's Sister

And do get involved with stuff. Like cycling/running. Great for mental health, great for physical health, and great for meeting people.

SharpshooterTom

Hi all, really grateful for all the responses so far, I can't reply to every one of them, so I'll just pick the bones out of what I can (long post coming apologies!):

Bafucin wrote:

Are you alone in life? Do you have many friends of both genders? If not then yes I would wager you need some help.

No, this is the crux of my problem, I don't have any friends, I haven't had any proper ones, since I was, well 13. I moved over from England at age 14 after a series of bullying (from those people were 'used' to be my friends), I was ostracised, punched/kicked, thrown around lockers etc. My parents (who are from Ireland) decided to move back (to Omagh in the north), as they were unhappy with the school. I was too frightened to make friends so I didn't 'expose' myself, I hid in a shell for protection, I was too scared of people unless they found out the real me, and in my head at that time finding out the real me = unlikeable =bullying. I never really overcame that fear tbh until I first had counselling at 25. At university I didn't socialise as I didn't think anyone wanted to be my friend. So I became socially avoidant, extremely so, but that had consequences long term in that I wasn't picking up any social skills and thus became 'odd' for my peer group and the whole thing ensured a deepening vicious cycle. I knew from 25 onwards that that had to change and be broken.

What I have had though is 'acquaintances' if you like. Now for the past 2 years I've been re-doing my education (its a long story, my education with my worsening self-esteem was suffering. I was so depressed that my grades between the ages 18-25 in both a levels and university were crap, I graduated with a 2.2 in Electrical Engineering, did a year placement and didn't like it, so I'm repeating my A levels here in Belfast in order to get into Dentistry in the Republic, I need 2A*'s 2A's, which is roughly 580 leaving cert points, but I'm capable of it with my new rejuvenated self. I finish them next year and I'm on target so far).

I made two good friends at the college here, also my age redoing their education. They were both fitness trainers but despite having best social life in years here (i.e. working on my social skills more than ever, putting myself out there), I never kept in contact with them, they never asked for my number and therefore I never asked for theirs. But you see the problem is they have a relatively decent social life already, better than mine for sure, both of them have girlfriends etc, so I need them more than they need me, so perhaps I should have made more of the effort to keep in contact I don't know. That's often how my friendships evaporate in the end.

Shakespear's Sister wrote:

Some of it is likely to be you subconsciously sabotaging your chances. You can be sure there are other people who look the way you do (I'm assuming you're just average-looking, as are most people) or are less good-looking (I have very very rarely seen a truly "ugly" person) but because they don't have such cripplingly low self esteem they don't encounter these difficulties.

No that's a fair comment, I don't think it is my looks are holding me back, infact I think I look alright (we'll just say average :pac:) now even my female counsellors at the time pointed out that I didn't look like Quasimodo and there was no reason looks wise that I could never get a girlfriend. So I would say I don't look like I'm a virgin, but I probably act like one. People over time probably, if they got to know me, could suspect I'm one, either through some of my mannerisms or just never talking about girls or relationships. But I'm certain I don't look like one I don't think.

Shakespear's Sister wrote:

But in your case it's an ongoing thing, however with enough counselling and working on your confidence, the cycle can be broken. It's not easy, but it's possible.

I'm glad you've pointed that out, it is extremely difficult, socialising is so difficult for me, difficult in that, ordering something at Subway or at any café, I worry I come across as weird or socially awkward, and more often than not in the past, I did. Just in small simple social situations were so nerve wracking to me.

Lucifer Morningstar wrote:

Have you tried online dating Tom ? If not you should give it a go, nothing to lose

No, for the reasons that Mike747 alluded to, its ridiculously competitive in that there appears to have far more men than women on most of those sites. Now I've never tried online dating I can't be certain of that, only what I hear through hearsay, but the common thought is that women don't have to try anywhere near as hard as men do in order to get the same success, and in my current situation, I'm not sure that would be the best option right now.

Baked.noodle wrote:

If you are approaching thirty and have yet to have a sexual encounter I think it is reasonable to visit Amsterdam

No I'm against that. I'm not against escort services in general, infact I would have quite liberal opinions on prostitution, e.g. legalising brothels etc. But the reason why I'm personally not interested in it is because, I could be having sex but I don't know what that person is thinking of me, and that's important, she could be thinking I'm an ugly twat 'how long has this guy got left?'. Prostitutes with all due respect are not interested in me, they're interested in my money. When having sex with someone, and maybe this is unrealistic, I wouldn't mind if the person I was having sex with also found me somewhat attractive! That's the whole point surely of sex? I mean with prostitution, the concepts a bit pointless really, its very one way, what would that achieve? That I can't get a girl or any friends and had to pay for it? It wouldn't solve anything, other than I had sex with someone who really didn't want to have sex with me personally.

So if I continue to be a virgin, then its because I deserve to be, I wasn't good enough, or attractive/appealing enough. It would be a reflection on my social life in truth. If I got to my 40s and still was in the same situation, then perhaps I could consider a prostitute, but its only as a last resort, in that I knew I was going to die a virgin, it holds no personal appeal to me otherwise.

Baked.noodle

The thing about acquaintances is you get to meet other people through them, and this can be very positive. Don't dwell on who need who more, life is full of up's and down's it is surprising who needs who sometimes. To be honest, the first time I had sex I was young, drunk and foolish. It's not something I analysed or thought about much at the time, it just happened. I can see your point, you want it to be special, but loosing my virginity is not something I think about too much, and it's not something I regret. It's never going to be perfect and you do come across as a thoughtful and decent chap and that is attractive. I guess I think you should dive in if you get the chance and just go with it without over analysing it too much. Once it's out of the way I imaging you will find it easier to approach women. I have defiantly learned most of my relationship skills, it's not innate.

Remmy

I can understand where you are coming from Thomas. While you aren't weird you haven't had the amount of "repetitions" of different social encounters that others in your peer group have so you might come across as kinda awkward which is understandable. The only way to overcome this is to bridge that gap and start catching up and building up those social interaction repetitions. I think you should get involved in an activity/sport to widen your social circle. Imo I 'd put the getting laid thing at the back of your mind for now and focus on building relationships with other people and becoming that guy that is affable and people want to have around at parties/gatheries etc.

pwurple

Oh my lord the negativity is overwhelming.

Electrical engineering is a HUGE field, and it's very hard for me to see how one placement can have made up your mind that you don't like it. Try another placement surely, before commiting 5-6 years to another career you may not like. The people I know from elec eng 15 years ago are in massively diverse careers and jobs now. Throughout finance, pharma, teaching, media, software etc. It is renowned for its breadth of uses.

Dentistry is very interesting, but oh so solitary. And you are going to be pushing 34 by the time you are even qualified. Social skills are important in dentistry also. Making your patient feel at ease and confident in your abilities.

You do need to be active with social acquaintences by the way. Making the call, arranging to meet.

Passively hoping someone else will do the legwork does not work for much in life.

And honest to goodness, I have never wondered whether someone has had sexual experience or not. It really is not some sort of stigmata or branding on your forehead. Who even cares about that, apart from silly 16 year olds? There is no way people looking at you can tell. Such low self esteem, I doubt you even believe me.

Wibbs gave you excellent detailed advice above. Read it carefully and follow to the letter I'd say.

Hercules99

I'm 24 years old and a lot of what it's in the opening post applies to me too. It can be very disheartening being a 24 year old virgin when it seems everyone else is either in a relationship or off having a good time with the opposite sex. I would consider myself a quiet or a shy person in some ways although as I get more comfortable with a group, I usually open up a bit more. I would not be the most sociable far from it, I like being by myself now and again, but I by myself all of the time now.

What I'd love advice on is simple ways to make new friends. A lot of this kind of thing focuses on joining a new group. But I'm at a loss to know what groups to join or where I'd even start looking. As well there's no substitute for the friends you make in school and when you move away from home or gradually lose contact with your oldest friends, it's very hard to make new ones. I moved away from home 3 years ago and I have not made one new friend in that time. By friend I mine someone I could ask to go out to the pub on a weekend with me. That really frustrates me because in those 3 years I've done as much as I can to improve myself.

In work, I always do my best to show ambition and I do my best with everything I'm asked. Outside of work, I thought getting fit would help. I joined a gym years ago and I'm in the shape of life and I reckon most guys would be very proud to be as fit and as athletic as I am (not to sound arrogant). I probably haven't directly made attempts to make friends but as I say I wouldn't know where to start. I did think and others have implied here working on yourself might mean opportunities for new friends might open up somewhere, also the added benefit of being successful at something helping with confidence, but my confidence in social situation is as bad as ever and I haven't made any friends.

Sorry for hijacking this thread but opening poster I understand your frustrations. I wish someone could post some basic starting points to help make new friends, meet some women, etc.

Jeremiahh

You can be coached on this, Tom. Your anxieties could be blown out the window by a social/sexual coach. Even reading and being active on online forums relating to the subject of male sexuality could help. Also, how frequently do you masturbate? A heavy reliance on this can have a damaging effect on your ability to approach women. I felt this struggle for a while as a late teenager.

Hercules99

Another thing I suffer from - maybe the opening poster and others in this thread do too - is a ridiculous fear of success. I have on occasions had girls indicate interest and literally I've panicked. Rather than being a man about it and reciprocate their interest, I've probably rejected them (indirectly). This I thought is something I would get over eventually but it's probably getting worse. I've read a bit about belief systems and all that and I'd love to get rid of my fear of success. I suppose being realistic the only answer here is to overcome your fears you have to face fears, but I would be so fearful that when a girl actually gets to know she'd think I'm a bit weird / different / unusual. How do you get rid of that fear?

Jeremiahh

And to add, if you truly do have so many of these doubts about yourself, all of these insecurities, you really have to begin to address them as soon as possible. It's all about being confident. Females want a confident man. Confident men get the most sexual relationships and encounters. You're still young, I implore you to begin a treatment for your insecurities. Confidence is key.

Jeremiahh

Hercules99 wrote:

Another thing I suffer from - maybe the opening poster and others in this thread do too - is a ridiculous fear of success. I have on occasions had girls indicate interest and literally I've panicked. Rather than being a man about it and reciprocate their interest, I've probably rejected them (indirectly). This I thought is something I would get over eventually but it's probably getting worse. I've read a bit about belief systems and all that and I'd love to get rid of my fear of success. I suppose being realistic the only answer here is to overcome your fears you have to face fears, but I would be so fearful that when a girl actually gets to know she'd think I'm a bit weird / different / unusual. How do you get rid of that fear?

I think it had a lot to do with self confidence and renouncing insecurities (like the female thinking that you're weird etc). Once you get to ignore all of these 'flaws' and be 100% indifferent of what girls think of you, you'll be more successful.

Baked.noodle

If I could write the definitive guide to friends I would be rich and far more popular I guess if you are having a hard time finding friends or bonding with people perhaps this is due to being withdrawn. I'm a believer in being yourself, but if being yourself means not opening up then that will have to change. I don't think everything you say should be deep and meaningful, but when the time arises try to be honest about how you feel about things and what you think and don't try too hard or be overbearing. Take the time to listen as people love to be listened too. Part of making friends is familiarity, so text people and go out and challenge yourself to step out of the comfort zone and take the initiative. Be careful trying to make friends in your professional life and if you do keep any unusual opinions or privet stuff to yourself. Don't expect too much from people, your best friends will gel with you and prove themselves in the long run, as you should do likewise if and when you get the chance. Everybody is weird in some way so don't dwell on your hangups, and try to overlook other peoples weird hangups unless they are arseholes. Stay flexible and keep trying to approach new people even if you have friends.

Daveysil15

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

No, for the reasons that Mike747 alluded to, its ridiculously competitive in that there appears to have far more men than women on most of those sites. Now I've never tried online dating I can't be certain of that, only what I hear through hearsay, but the common thought is that women don't have to try anywhere near as hard as men do in order to get the same success, and in my current situation, I'm not sure that would be the best option right now.

That's mostly true and I was kind of in the same boat as yourself for a long time, but I recently met someone through online dating and its going great. The thing about online dating is, you have to be patient with it. You're unlikely to meet someone in the first couple of weeks of joining. I've been doing it on and off for the last 3 years now and I only met 2 people on it.

It may or may not work but its worth a try, especially if you don't have many friends. Social status and a wingman are not necessary for online dating which is what I like about it. I think its better than nightclubs anyway.

Bafucin

Hercules99 wrote: »

Another thing I suffer from - maybe the opening poster and others in this thread do too - is a ridiculous fear of success. I have on occasions had girls indicate interest and literally I've panicked. Rather than being a man about it and reciprocate their interest, I've probably rejected them (indirectly). This I thought is something I would get over eventually but it's probably getting worse. I've read a bit about belief systems and all that and I'd love to get rid of my fear of success. I suppose being realistic the only answer here is to overcome your fears you have to face fears, but I would be so fearful that when a girl actually gets to know she'd think I'm a bit weird / different / unusual. How do you get rid of that fear?

Maybe you don't like her that much. You panic because she likes you but you cannot reciprocate yet out of fear of being alone you think you should. Or you feel social pressure to be a 'man's man' and bed her etc.

What is this 'success', the promised land?? It doesn't exist you know.

Relationships go up and down. You have to keep working on them.

You are weird different and unusual ...girls LOVE that.
Success is a moving goal post.

Bafucin

Mike747 wrote: »

Well sounds like you've already done a lot of the hard work. You've got your head together. It's vital you ditch any negative thinking. You're priority now is to get laid a couple of times so you can see that sex and women are no big deal, after that you can worry about finding a relationship.

You might think you could never go out and score. Of course you can but you'll have to work on yourself mentally and physically first.

I can recommend a very good book to help learn to pick up women. You won't have to dress like a retard or do magic tricks like any of that pua ****. Let me know if you want it and I can pm it to you.

The only free cheese is in a mouse trap.

SharpshooterTom

pwurple wrote:

Oh my lord the negativity is overwhelming.

Yes you're right it is. But although I agree it is problem and I wish I wasn't, you can understand in my position, from literally having very friends (infact none really) throughout my entire adult life and finding myself effectively 'a kissless virgin' by my late 20s to sometimes feel hopeless and in despair and that I am essentially 'a freak' (or at least that's how I felt at the time). That's why I fell into depression, and became subsequently suicidal. I was tired full stop of being me and felt embarrassed for my family to be me.

Let me make it clear though I am willing to change, or at least I wanting to try to work hard and change aspects of my life. So although you are making a criticism that it is a negative thread, and that I am being 'negative', (because that's what it is essentially is, its a negative situation) that is by no means a reflection of my attitude on how to tackle my life. I'm not writing this thread out for people to feel sorry for me, I appreciate the well wishing but I am looking for answers and solutions to my problem, which a lot of people so far have contributed which I am delighted with.

pwurple wrote:

Electrical engineering is a HUGE field, and it's very hard for me to see how one placement can have made up your mind that you don't like it. Try another placement surely, before commiting 5-6 years to another career you may not like. The people I know from elec eng 15 years ago are in massively diverse careers and jobs now. Throughout finance, pharma, teaching, media, software etc. It is renowned for its breadth of uses.

Dentistry is very interesting, but oh so solitary. And you are going to be pushing 34 by the time you are even qualified. Social skills are important in dentistry also. Making your patient feel at ease and confident in your abilities.

Honestly I wrote out my scenario regarding education/work life very briefly as my post was getting a bit too long and I wanted to condense it, but if you want me to expand upon it I will, because there's more to it than just "I didn't like that placement very much so screw it". For my A levels (post GCSE exams in the UK) I did Maths, Phyiscs and Biology. By the time I was 18, at sixth form, which my self esteem was so low, with no social life, I finished with grades DEE (yep that bad I had very good GCSE grades but fell apart at sixth form), I had no motivation to work because my whole outlook on life was worthless, at times I was contemplating suicide even then. I'm very much capable at working at school, and getting good grades but I need a reason for it, I'm not naturally a studious person, but under the right circumstances I can be.

I picked Electrical Engineering because thats what my a-levels were suited to, no other reason, I didn't think of 'my ultimate career' I simply fell into it, but never had any real passion for it. So I ended up doing a foundation year with those crappy grades and got in Electrical Engineering at Queens the following year. I meandered through still being a loser at uni 'who's that weird guy?' scraping 40's and 50's revising the week before, not turning up for lectures, until I was half way a through a masters (yes I did one of those to) and attempted suicide. I was a volcano waiting to explode my counsellor said.

Now I did have a placement (I actually had two) and it was only after I got help for the first time did I sit down and think what I actually wanted to do for the rest of my life, was engineering the right career or was their something more I could do? In the end I decided upon Medicine/Dentistry, they were careers that interested back when I was 18 but felt I wasn't good enough to get into. I get enjoyment from helping people and interacting with others in such a way, I see that as a positive. I did one week's work experience and honestly I loved it far more than I ever did at engineering.

It was a snap decision me picking another career in my mid twenties, but I only live life once and I felt if I am going to change career, this might be my only opportunity to do so and it is a career I prefer. I don't want to diss engineering, there were some aspects I enjoyed very much and some of the best workers I've ever come across, but it wasn't for me I didn't feel ever happy being in it.

You say I require social skills for being dentist, that's a while off I'll be 33/34. Why not use the years I have before then to improve my social skills and propel myself further when I'm in it? I see that scenario as a positive.

jeremiahh wrote:

Also, how frequently do you masturbate? A heavy reliance on this can have a damaging effect on your ability to approach women. I felt this struggle for a while as a late teenager.

Near daily, or once every two days. Bash the bishop with porn, meh what else :P, I certainly don't take porn as 'real' though. I prefer amateur stuff tbh. Its not a huge part of my life and I try to supress it if possible. But yes I'm not robotic I do have sexual urges.

Remmy wrote:

I can understand where you are coming from Thomas. While you aren't weird you haven't had the amount of "repetitions" of different social encounters that others in your peer group have so you might come across as kinda awkward which is understandable.

I totally agree. To me social situations have been or were 'unusual' and I don't behave as confidently or as normally as others do and certainly wasn't natural to me, but I have improved on that in college over the past year or so. But you say 'awkward' I totally get what you're saying but my constant fear is that everyone views me 'negatively' and that was one of my challenges when doing CBT was to try to change my thought process that not everyone (or perhaps even most people) viewed me as negatively as I think they do, and I have had success on that and that's why I'm making big strides now and not as socially avoidant as I once was and actively try to put myself in awkward social situations in previous occasions I had originally feared, which I say is great. I am making some strides but I am still struggling to make long term connections as pointed out which does worry me.

Bafucin

I was a volcano waiting to explode my counsellor said.

They've said similar about myself. :-) I hear you.

OP you are socializing right here right now online you know.

I have had success on that and that's why I'm making big strides now and not as socially avoidant as I once was and actively try to put myself in awkward social situations in previous occasions I had originally feared, which I say is great. I am making some strides but I am still struggling to make long term connections as pointed out which does worry me.

See you are making changes and seeing them. You are getting there. Give yourself a pat on the back. You WILL get there.

I promise not everyone sees you nearly as negatively as you think.

You have accomplished something in a hard subject. I am an Eng. PHD student ...or erm trying to be I have had similar doubts about it. People don't get how hard it is or how many brilliant minds are doing with whom you feel you have to compete.

GO for the dentistry or medicine if you want. And believe me you are accomplishing a lot more than a lot of loser Romeos out there who think getting laid equals self worth.

I know a guy who did the Sc.D. and is now doing Veterinary Science and was the same as you he didn't get the points in the leaving at 18 but he is doing and happy he has two years left. Academically gifted can't say boo to a goose, bit impractical, very shy. He is in his thirties and only got his first girlfriend a year and a half ago. I don't know if he was a virgin but I wouldn't be surprised. He has a very small group of friends and his girlfriend. He still needs to work on confidence but he is getting there.


You are doing better than you think.


Do you have siblings?

ongarboy

Hey OP,

For what it's worth, you come across as a very sincere, articulate, decent person who has empathy, self awareness and demonstrated extreme willpower to overcome such massive challenges and setbacks. All of these are fantastic human attributes and you should be very proud of yourself and what you've achieved so far. You are most definitely not a freak. It's a long road ahead but stick at it with the same determination and positivity you have demonstrated in the recent past.

Social skills are like every other skill. They need to be practiced, honed, fine tuned until they become second nature and instinctive. One of your challenges is that you have missed out on many vital years to acquire and practice these skills so you are playing catch up. That's ok because it's never too late. I would say as others already have to focus on establishing and broadening your social circle of platonic friends (male and female) so that you have more interaction and practice around people you are or will be comfortable with. Your choice of college course or profession should not be a sole factor in influencing this as there are other ways to meet people (sports, meetup.com groups for various and niche interest groups etc)

The dating and relationship game is challenging enough as it is (as many threads here and in Personal Issues demonstrate), even for some that seemingly are the social life and soul of the party. I would suggest you try not to aim too high too soon. The benefits of having more platonic friends is that it does open up new avenues to meeting friends of friends and other new people that maybe can in time become that special someone. Also, please try not to worry about the virgin or never been kissed status. That is something teenagers or very insecure people use as a benchmark. Genuine, at ease people who are interested in you for who you are will not judge you for lack of experience (it will probably even be considered endearing). I would ignore PUA advice or books for now as they will not be of any help to someone who first needs to be happy within and like themselves.

I would also say continue with the counselling and CBT. You've already said you've seen some success with it so it can work with determination and committment. Best of luck - you deserve it!

Wibbs

ongarboy wrote: »

Social skills are like every other skill. They need to be practiced, honed, fine tuned until they become second nature and instinctive. One of your challenges is that you have missed out on many vital years to acquire and practice these skills so you are playing catch up.

+ eleventy bazillion OB. Over the years I've known a few chaps like yourself TF and in every single case* the guys in question had missed out on the very important period of adolescence in social engagement, usually through external circumstance. Your story would fit that pattern to a tee. Moving from one country to another at that pivotal moment would be incredibly hard to navigate for someone who is still essentially a child**. Especially if you'd already had the social pressure of bullying to contend with. Maybe if you hadn't have moved the bullying would have continued, but you may well have struck up social interaction with others of like background, or the bullying would have tapered off. Moving into a new environment would have put paid to that.

Clearly you're as bright as a lighthouse bulb on full power at 20 paces. Clearly you can express yourself very well and what it means to be you and you clearly understand what's going on. Never mind that you've decided your goal in your career and are going for it and it's hardly an easy one to choose. You're one clued in and clever man T. The problem(as I see it anyway) is that in intellect and in capability you're a brainy and driven 40 year old , but socially you're locked into being 14. Your intelligence is seeking out its potential(and finding it), but your social brain is stuck. If I think back and remember me at 14, I cannot begin to comprehend how I would cope if that social mind was dropped into my skull when I was 30. Frankly I think I would shíte myself like an overfed goose with cholera.

That IMH/I'm not a trained shrink Opinion is what drives your self esteem thing. Your brain knows you've missed out on this step and as self protection tells you "oh oh, you'll likely come across as weird cos you've not learned this shíte, best retreat so you don't look like a gobshíte".

The great thing about being a kid and an adolescent kid is that you can fúck up. You can try on different social masks and through a process of elimination can find the one that fits you and the peer group around you. Many is the bald boring beige or maybe very cool and with it 50 year old company manager of today who was a lipstick wearing New Romantic, or a goth or a metalhead, or a punk, or a Dungeons and Dragons nerd back in the day. Kids are allowed be gauche and silly and most of all are allowed to fail. That's how we learn.

So how do you make up this lost time? Maybe look at it like being a mature student? Where a mature student goes back to university because they missed out first time around, maybe you need to be a mature student majoring in social interaction? YOu've already relaised that engineering isn't for you and dentistry is. OK then, realise that feeling socially distant is a lot o me bollocks and change courses to hanging out with folks is cool.

How is the kicker. Just my humble, but I would say the best way to learn is to just jump the fúck in. Join in. Join anything, club, gym, society, volunteer service, that sort of thing. IMH at first try to engage with fellow men. That'll take the edge off and distraction of worrying about a different gender and dating and all that stuff. You will feel awkward, you will fúck up T. Just like you would have if your narrative had followed the "normal" trajectory in your teens(oh god did I fúck up and thank the same god/fate I was born before FaceTube). Yes it may be more embarrassing in your twenties, but on the other had you have your non kiddie brain in play now. You can learn faster, you can learn from each little stumble, until you start to get it right and get it right you will.

Oh and remember this too T, this is a lifelong learning experience or should be. Adolescence is just the start. Those peeps who reckon they're "adults" at 25 are doomed to be boring if not bad company at 35 and 45 and 55. Put it another way, you're only ten years behind everyone else and more you're in the happy position of realising it. That's pure gold right there Ted as so many don't.

The Ladies? If you drop yourself into learning this stuff and you will learn it and get better until it's second nature, women will notice this and you will notice them noticing and it will come more easily to you to engage. A genuinely nice guy with a big heart and mahooosive brains, loving his career and life who isn't hard on the eyes is a bloody unicorn out there.


My 3 cents anyway.



Jayzuz that was a long one, even for me, as the actress said to the bishop.



*that didn't involve an underlying condition, say on the autistic scale.

** I've known three women who had a very similar overturning of their life just at that crossover point into adolescence(including an ex), but just going on my experience women seem to be able to navigate it better, if only on the surface. I think it's because they are generally less likely to withdraw socially. They keep that bit engaged. Plus because the male/female dynamic is more skewed to the female being a sellers market they would have men approaching and talking to them. Shy withdrawn girls are generally seen as much more attractive than shy withdrawn men. And IMHO women are better at bringing themselves up with less outside influence. However like I said it can be a surface thing. In each of the above cases they all had a major meltdown in their late teens(which they overcame) and they exhibited a need for constant reassurance and an overwhelming hunger to be liked well above the norm afterward. They couldn't be single for a start.

Adamantium

Wibbs wrote: »

+ eleventy bazillion OB. Over the years I've known a few chaps like yourself TF and in every single case* the guys in question had missed out on the very important period of adolescence in social engagement, usually through external circumstance. Your story would fit that pattern to a tee. Moving from one country to another at that pivotal moment would be incredibly hard to navigate for someone who is still essentially a child**. Especially if you'd already had the social pressure of bullying to contend with. Maybe if you hadn't have moved the bullying would have continued, but you may well have struck up social interaction with others of like background, or the bullying would have tapered off. Moving into a new environment would have put paid to that.

Clearly you're as bright as a lighthouse bulb on full power at 20 paces. Clearly you can express yourself very well and what it means to be you and you clearly understand what's going on. Never mind that you've decided your goal in your career and are going for it and it's hardly an easy one to choose. You're one clued in and clever man T. The problem(as I see it anyway) is that in intellect and in capability you're a brainy and driven 40 year old , but socially you're locked into being 14. Your intelligence is seeking out its potential(and finding it), but your social brain is stuck. If I think back and remember me at 14, I cannot begin to comprehend how I would cope if that social mind was dropped into my skull when I was 30. Frankly I think I would shíte myself like an overfed goose with cholera.

That IMH/I'm not a trained shrink Opinion is what drives your self esteem thing. Your brain knows you've missed out on this step and as self protection tells you "oh oh, you'll likely come across as weird cos you've not learned this shíte, best retreat so you don't look like a gobshíte".

The great thing about being a kid and an adolescent kid is that you can fúck up. You can try on different social masks and through a process of elimination can find the one that fits you and the peer group around you. Many is the bald boring beige or maybe very cool and with it 50 year old company manager of today who was a lipstick wearing New Romantic, or a goth or a metalhead, or a punk, or a Dungeons and Dragons nerd back in the day. Kids are allowed be gauche and silly and most of all are allowed to fail. That's how we learn.

So how do you make up this lost time? Maybe look at it like being a mature student? Where a mature student goes back to university because they missed out first time around, maybe you need to be a mature student majoring in social interaction? YOu've already relaised that engineering isn't for you and dentistry is. OK then, realise that feeling socially distant is a lot o me bollocks and change courses to hanging out with folks is cool.

How is the kicker. Just my humble, but I would say the best way to learn is to just jump the fúck in. Join in. Join anything, club, gym, society, volunteer service, that sort of thing. IMH at first try to engage with fellow men. That'll take the edge off and distraction of worrying about a different gender and dating and all that stuff. You will feel awkward, you will fúck up T. Just like you would have if your narrative had followed the "normal" trajectory in your teens(oh god did I fúck up and thank the same god/fate I was born before FaceTube). Yes it may be more embarrassing in your twenties, but on the other had you have your non kiddie brain in play now. You can learn faster, you can learn from each little stumble, until you start to get it right and get it right you will.

Oh and remember this too T, this is a lifelong learning experience or should be. Adolescence is just the start. Those peeps who reckon they're "adults" at 25 are doomed to be boring if not bad company at 35 and 45 and 55. Put it another way, you're only ten years behind everyone else and more you're in the happy position of realising it. That's pure gold right there Ted as so many don't.

The Ladies? If you drop yourself into learning this stuff and you will learn it and get better until it's second nature, women will notice this and you will notice them noticing and it will come more easily to you to engage. A genuinely nice guy with a big heart and mahooosive brains, loving his career and life who isn't hard on the eyes is a bloody unicorn out there.


My 3 cents anyway.



Jayzuz that was a long one, even for me, as the actress said to the bishop.



*that didn't involve an underlying condition, say on the autistic scale.

** I've known three women who had a very similar overturning of their life just at that crossover point into adolescence(including an ex), but just going on my experience women seem to be able to navigate it better, if only on the surface. I think it's because they are generally less likely to withdraw socially. They keep that bit engaged. Plus because the male/female dynamic is more skewed to the female being a sellers market they would have men approaching and talking to them. Shy withdrawn girls are generally seen as much more attractive than shy withdrawn men. And IMHO women are better at bringing themselves up with less outside influence. However like I said it can be a surface thing. In each of the above cases they all had a major meltdown in their late teens(which they overcame) and they exhibited a need for constant reassurance and an overwhelming hunger to be liked well above the norm afterward. They couldn't be single for a start.

Buy this man a drink. Real talk O.P. I might even print this for myself, those last 4 paragraphs are the cast iron truth.

Wibbs

Adamantium wrote: »

Buy this man a drink.

Right lads you all saw this. In black and fecking white. *takes screenshot and notes date*

IamtheWalrus

I've had similar self esteem issues myself Tom, caused my years of bullying. I decided enough was enough and I am in my third year of therapy. I also work out a lot so look much better too. So I've spent time working on myself mentally and physically. My life is currently on a steep upward curve. It took time. The bullies made me hate myself and try to change everything about myself, just to be liked. Therapy changed all this and now I'm very proud of myself. Keep working on your self esteem. When that improves, you'll be amazed how many doors start opening for you.

The old cliche 'you have to love yourself before you love someone else' is so true.

Remmy

Wibbs dropping some serious knowledge bombs. I'm gonna go back and read that again a few times.

Export

Some day I will use the phrase 'a lot o me bollocks' pmsl. Priceless.

endacl

Mike747 wrote: »

Seems like any half decent girl on a dating website is going to be inundated with messages so it's going to be hard to stand out. But if it works for you go for it.

'Half decent' isn't a helpful description of any person, regardless of gender. Skin deep, and all that.

Export

endacl wrote: »

'Half decent' isn't a helpful description of any person, regardless of gender. Skin deep, and all that.

Arah - to be half daycent, you're a good lookin' woman.

We do things by halves, down in the schticks.

Jeremiahh

So, why not just assess your anxieties? There's an audio book by Thomas Richardson which casually coaches people out of anxieties and depressions. I've listened to it to get over mild anxiety and it worked a treat. I'm sure you can give it a go.
There's also the 'tips and tricks' approach to getting over anxiety. I'm pretty much cured now, and one thing I absolutely adore doing is walking down the crowded streets, shoulders relaxed and arms swinging freely from the momentum of my confident walk, making as much amiable eye contact as possible with those who I pass. And this isn't just a FAUX manner of appearing socially confident. As you practice maintaining the oh so scary eye contact with women, and looking like an awesome and honest guy who couldn't give a damn, this will rub off on your basic every day approach to socialising with women and people. Being the confident, friendly and honest guy who controls social situation is the key to developing sexual relationships and confidence with women. It's so simple, and i urge you to look more into it.

Thargor

Why do people list the gym as a social experience? Cycling and jogging maybe if you join clubs but still the majority are loners there even in a group, the gym recommendation is completely baffling though, who socializes at the gym? Ive been a member of three or four and they're all quite as a church apart from the sounds of the machines and the odd grunt. I wouldnt want anyone coming up to me and interrupting me for a chat anyway.