Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

TheBeardedLady

Just because there isn't a huge amount of Irish women going out with Polish men specifically, doesn't mean Irish women aren't going out with foreign men. Speaking for myself, I haven't had an Irish boyfriend in 8 years (the one previous to that particular one was foreign as well) and my current one is foreign, my two sisters are married to foreign men and out of my close female mates from my hometown, 4 out of 7 of us are with foreign men. I know of many more examples.


I've lived with a few Polish couples in the past and the dynamics within the relationship was not something I'd ever want for myself as the man was very much the boss. Coming from a country where I always felt an equal, I was shocked by the control the man had over the woman even though the couples were in their 20s like I was. If I was single again I wouldn't write off a man simply for being Polish but let's just say, after what I've witnessed, it's not a nationality I'd go on the hunt for.

I've only ever gone out briefly with one man with money/status (funnily enough, his status was the reason I ended it) but have always gravitated towards men who've treated me as an equal and respect that I like to do my own thing and that I've looked after myself in every way for a long time and that won't change just because I'm in a relationship. It's important to me that house duties are shared, money is shared, decisions are made together, there's mutual respect and that there's no expectation from either that traditional roles will be established etc.


I have no interest in "having the control" but maintaining the balance within the relationship is very important to me.

TheBeardedLady

I don't think I can go back and edit posts until I've reached 50 posts. I meant to say, expenses are shared, not money. Having our own money is important as well.

Bafucin

Just a question.

I grew up in a house where my mother stayed at home and Dad worked and yes he was more the boss. I assumed when I was older I would live with a woman who either had a job and did most of the housework . And if she did work and keep house on her own and did most of the childcare I would be footing a little more of the bills.

I think this is right. I have a mate who dated a Polish girl at one point. She had a Degree, a Masters and a full time job and she did all the cleaning and cooking while they were together. He told me she was very impressed when he cooked for her once. Obviously, that's just an anecdote but I've heard similar tales from time to time.

I know of some Irish women who do this too or almost. It's bad I know but I kind of assumed she would be doing both jobs subconsciously.

I have a mate living with a Russian girl who works and keeps house on her own but he is expected to pay for everything despite the fact that she works because she keeps the house and cooks etc .

What do people consider to be equality in the relationship? I think some men need to re-evaluate. Even in relationships I have had women did more for me.

Pug160

beks101 wrote: »

For me it would have less to do with 'what he does for a living' etc and more to do with emotional compatibility.

Most of my relationships have been with either American or Canadian men for that reason. I've spent a good bit of time over there and found I got used to their directness and the simplicity and straight-forward way they express themselves emotionally. I'd tend to be the same most of the time, heart on my sleeve, quite emotionally-driven and open, and always found that a lot easier to come to grips with than a lot of Irish men, who I'd spend most of my time second guessing, 'is he/isn't he interested?' 'What's he thinking?' 'Why don't I feel comfortable saying certain things around him?'

I'm quite career driven so usually have ended up with guys who are quite passionate about what they do, but I'm not talking doctors and lawyers here. Just someone who gives a sh1t about the 9-5 part of his life, and that's come in various different packages over the years. Again, that would be a personality trait as opposed to a 'socio-economic' reason to get with someone, which sounds about as romantic as a bullet to the head.

Maybe some Irish guys have tried to be open like that and have found the women unreceptive to that kind of philosophy. Like I said in my earlier post, Americans have a much more evolved dating system, and it benefits everybody - both men and women. People there go on dates all the time and it's no big deal. I suspect you probably just like North American men anyway - the same as some women over there who like Irish guys

Is it always someone who is passionate about their job? What about other passions? IMO only a small minority of people are truly passionate about their job and enjoy their average week at work. Remember the lyrics to that Baz Luhrmann song? Don't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to do with your life. The most interesting people I know didn't know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives. Some of the most interesting 40-year-olds I know still don't.

We can't help who we're attracted to, so if some people always seem to end up going out with people who are in a decent job they certainly shouldn't feel guilty about it or feel the need to explain themselves. It's perfectly logical. There are other ways of making up for any shortcomings career-wise, like being well read and well travelled etc. As Wibbs and others on here quite rightly say, not all women are the same, and we should always remember that.

TheBeardedLady

Pug160 wrote: »

Maybe some Irish guys have tried to be open like that and have found the women unreceptive to that kind of philosophy. Like I said in my earlier post, Americans have a much more evolved dating system, and it benefits everybody - both men and women. People there go on dates all the time and it's no big deal. I suspect you probably just like North American men anyway - the same as some women over there who like Irish guys

It goes for both genders. That's not to say all Irish men and women are like that but I know I always had less confusion as to where I stood with foreign men. I think back now to the Irish guys I went out with and although they were almost all lovely, nothing "heavy" was discussed without a few pints on board and often the next day it was as if nothing was discussed at all. In hindsight, I'd some very strange experiences with mixed messages and I suppose game playing etc when I compare it to what I experienced elsewhere. That went for both of us, if I'm honest. I find I'm more open with foreign men about my feelings (without having to drunk) but it took me a while to get there and I know I left two foreign men in the I dated baffled by my lack of directness in my feelings in the past.

That could also have something to do with getting older and a bit more confident in myself to be more vulnerable when it comes to relationships. I'm not sure.

Daveysil15

Roquentin wrote: »

the gist of what im getting is that irish women turn down the foreign men because they want more control. Ok. But why do irish women want more control and the polish women lets say dont? What has happened in the last lets say twenty years in ireland to cause a radical shift?

What has happened is ireland has become more prosperous as a nation and sub consciously this does have an effect in what people demand with regards standard. The more one achieves in life, statistically the higher their standards become. So now more than ever women have become more independent in ireland. They have more control in their lives and are not as dependent on men as a pose to years ago.

You may say the reason is lack of traditional gender roles and ok i agree with you. But im saying the reason it is lack of gender roles is because the latest generation of irish women have grown up in the celtic tiger and are now more independent than ever. The reason they want to maintain control is because they have it and the reason they have control is not the personality or because they are "irish". The reason is socio-economic. They have grown up in a thriving economy (well was thriving before 2007) and this coupled with the fact that she is irish, has wealth, good job does play a part sub consciously in her decision making.

One must not doubt the power of the sub conscious in decision making. Adverts work through sub conscious manipulation. It can influence the conscious part of your mind. So when a person is deciding who to choose, they may only consciously think about age or education lets say, but sub consciously they are taking every single thing they know about that person and using it to influence the conscious decision.

The reason eastern european women exercise less control is because they have less dependence and live in poorer countries. And yes in agreement with the gaf, the reason the irish woman would choose an irish man over a polish man is maintain control. But i would also stress that the difference between socio-economic cultures does play a part sub consciously in her decision making, a tiny bit.

I know it doesnt sound romantic, but people do have a mental check list of what they look for in a partner. And you have two of them, a conscious one and a sub conscious one and both those check lists work in tandem to give you a decision.

Yeah I suppose when you put it that way it does make sense. The whole thing with the Celtic Tiger and women becoming more independent I would agree with. I've dated a few Eastern European women and whenever we went on dates I was always expected to pay. I find the Irish women are more likely to pay their own way.

Another thing I've noticed is if I'm trying to organise a night out with work mates a lot of the Irish lads will say, "Ohh I better run it by the missus first." Whereas the Polish lads would be like, "Yeah I'll be there." Obviously there would exceptions to this but its just something I've picked up on.

pwurple wrote: »

Communication in a relationship can be tricky enough without throwing in a language barrier as well.

My ex had feck all English. It was grand really. It can actually be advantageous. There were times when she'd be arguing or giving out to me but I couldn't understand what she was saying. I never ended up sleeping on the couch, mainly because I didn't understand the Polish word for couch.

Pug160 wrote: »

Maybe some Irish guys have tried to be open like that and have found the women unreceptive to that kind of philosophy.

I reckon that is a big part of it alright. As I said earlier, you have to be a lot more subtle with the Irish. When I lived in Canada a girl asked me out on a date in a clothes shop and I was very taken aback by that. They're so casual about dating over there its unreal.

Although I think things are slowly starting to change here with online dating and all that, but we're stil far behind our friends across the pond.

Roquentin

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Yeah I suppose when you put it that way it does make sense. The whole thing with the Celtic Tiger and women becoming more independent I would agree with. I've dated a few Eastern European women and whenever we went on dates I was always expected to pay. I find the Irish women are more likely to pay their own way.

Another thing I've noticed is if I'm trying to organise a night out with work mates a lot of the Irish lads will say, "Ohh I better run it by the missus first." Whereas the Polish lads would be like, "Yeah I'll be there." Obviously there would exceptions to this but its just something I've picked up on.



My ex had feck all English. It was grand really. It can actually be advantageous. There were times when she'd be arguing or giving out to me but I couldn't understand what she was saying. I never ended up sleeping on the couch, mainly because I didn't understand the Polish word for couch.



I reckon that is a big part of it alright. As I said earlier, you have to be a lot more subtle with the Irish. When I lived in Canada a girl asked me out on a date in a clothes shop and I was very taken aback by that. They're so casual about dating over there its unreal.

Although I think things are slowly starting to change here with online dating and all that, but we're stil far behind our friends across the pond.

im thinking off moving to canada. should be interesting

beks101

Pug160 wrote: »

I suspect you probably just like North American men anyway - the same as some women over there who like Irish guys

Or maybe I like them because they're more emotionally expressive, as I previously outlined? I've met American guys I wasn't into, just as I've met Irish men I've been attracted to and had relationships with. It's a general observation from my own experience.

Agree with beardedlady though about the heavy discussions only whilst drunk! That would be my experience too. I found I could date an Irish guy til the cows come home without there being any discussion about feelings or where we stand unless I initiated it after a few drinks or whatever. And the poor lad would be so ill-at-ease that nothing would be clear after it anyway. Now granted you might see that there would be feelings there in other ways, but I'm a pretty direct kind of person and just function better when these kind of conversations can be had.

In my relationships with foreign men I'd know where I stood after the first date, and maybe even before that as there was never any coyness or shyness about showing they were interested.

And yeah all of my long-term relationships have been with men who really love their work, strange as that may be. Current bf is a medical engineer who has devoted his life to his work, loves talking about it. Guy before was a baker, couldn't pull him away from the kitchen. Before that again a journalist, guy couldn't have been anything else as it was his personality to a tee.

Bafucin

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

It goes for both genders. That's not to say all Irish men and women are like that but I know I always had less confusion as to where I stood with foreign men. I think back now to the Irish guys I went out with and although they were almost all lovely, nothing "heavy" was discussed without a few pints on board and often the next day it was as if nothing was discussed at all. In hindsight, I'd some very strange experiences with mixed messages and I suppose game playing etc when I compare it to what I experienced elsewhere. That went for both of us, if I'm honest. I find I'm more open with foreign men about my feelings (without having to drunk) but it took me a while to get there and I know I left two foreign men in the I dated baffled by my lack of directness in my feelings in the past.

That could also have something to do with getting older and a bit more confident in myself to be more vulnerable when it comes to relationships. I'm not sure.

It's definitely an Irish trait.

TheBeardedLady

Bafucin wrote: »

It's definitely an Irish trait.

Perhaps an Irish couple trait. Foreigners bring out the best in us perhaps. It's not the case now with current fella. 3 and a half years together and I've seen him tipsy but never plastered and I'm usually the same when with him yet we're very affectionate and open about our feelings. It's a relief tbh. Not to say it wasn't fun getting hammered with Irish exes but nothing was ever straightforward.

Potatoeman

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Perhaps an Irish couple trait. Foreigners bring out the best in us perhaps. It's not the case now with current fella. 3 and a half years together and I've seen him tipsy but never plastered and I'm usually the same when with him yet we're very affectionate and open about our feelings. It's a relief tbh. Not to say it wasn't fun getting hammered with Irish exes but nothing was ever straightforward.

I dont think its just drink. I think we are more independent which has positives and negatives. The negative is doing less for each other so you are slower to bond and not as sure of the relationship in the early stages.

TheBeardedLady

Potatoeman wrote: »

I dont think its just drink. I think we are more independent which has positives and negatives. The negative is doing less for each other so you are slower to bond and not as sure of the relationship in the early stages.

Do you think were more independent than other nations?

Potatoeman

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Do you think were more independent than other nations?

Yes. We went from traditional gender roles in our parents generation to being more independant. That and being reactionary can mean each person is waiting for the other person to do more before they do.

cookiexx

My mam was pretty independent back in her day. Good career, own money, travelled a bit. Same as all of her sisters. Wouldn't say I'm any more independent today than she was back then.

My Dad was and is a product of his time, stoic, silent, not great at the aul emotions. Great, loyal man but my mother definitely wore the trousers.

Galwayguy35

It is true about Polish men expecting the woman to do all the housework, that's the way things are over in Poland, it's kinda like Ireland was 25 years ago.

Pug160

beks101 wrote: »

Or maybe I like them because they're more emotionally expressive, as I previously outlined? I've met American guys I wasn't into, just as I've met Irish men I've been attracted to and had relationships with. It's a general observation from my own experience.

Agree with beardedlady though about the heavy discussions only whilst drunk! That would be my experience too. I found I could date an Irish guy til the cows come home without there being any discussion about feelings or where we stand unless I initiated it after a few drinks or whatever. And the poor lad would be so ill-at-ease that nothing would be clear after it anyway. Now granted you might see that there would be feelings there in other ways, but I'm a pretty direct kind of person and just function better when these kind of conversations can be had.

In my relationships with foreign men I'd know where I stood after the first date, and maybe even before that as there was never any coyness or shyness about showing they were interested.

And yeah all of my long-term relationships have been with men who really love their work, strange as that may be. Current bf is a medical engineer who has devoted his life to his work, loves talking about it. Guy before was a baker, couldn't pull him away from the kitchen. Before that again a journalist, guy couldn't have been anything else as it was his personality to a tee.

Maybe the direct approach is more congruent with their personalities and that one particular quality sticks in your mind, even though it could be part of a bigger picture. Perhaps that's what I was getting at. Maybe it wouldn't work quite the same way with certain types of people. It's a catch 22 sometimes, as some women say they admire certain qualities but on the other hand they can become flustered if those virtues are expressed at the wrong time/the wrong way or by the wrong type of men.

TheBeardedLady

Pug160 wrote: »

Maybe the direct approach is more congruent with their personalities and that one particular quality sticks in your mind, even though it could be part of a bigger picture. Perhaps that's what I was getting at. Maybe it wouldn't work quite the same way with certain types of people. It's a catch 22 sometimes, as some women say they admire certain qualities but on the other hand they can become flustered if those virtues are expressed at the wrong time/the wrong way or by the wrong type of men.

Although you've inserted "some" there, many men don't think like that.

I think the problem is some (;-)) men take what a few women say as read. Hate to use this expression but they really do view us as having a hive mind and all thinking and acting alike (from having little real life experience with women). I've seen it on this thread a number of times. For example, Beks liked the American approach but I didn't. I don't like to be "cold approached" like that and I found it uncomfortable when I lived there for a short time. I find that kind of extreme confidence intimidating because I can't match it. I often find posters taking the opinion of one woman and running with it, "But you (all - women) said looks don't matter!" for example. Nope, one woman said that once on a thread, for example.

I think it's fair to say that generalisations are only useful to a certain degree when it comes to this stuff and you're better off dealing with women as they come and picking up on social cues on whether she feels comfortable or not by your advances.

ongarboy

I don't like generalising about any nationality but from my observations of living in and frequently visiting the States, I do notice the full on approach taken by strangers on first dates. I think it's due to less inhibition and if you have a dating equal who matches that, then it works really well.

A couple of times I've had people I met during our first encounter over there saying that they could see a future together with me. Even though we might have gotten on really well on that first date or encounter etc, that is just too much, too soon for me. My feelings for someone new could never adapt that quickly and it actually made me put my guard up as I felt slightly cornered by such statements or declarations.

But I do think a single guy would actually find it easier to meet a girl in the US then over here. There is less ambiguity, people are more direct and less inhibited. Situations and conversations that enable dates/phone number exchanges/follow up meets etc to be brought up in the States feel perfectly appropriate (fruit and veg section of supermarket, coffee queue, book store aisle etc) would seem bizarre or inappropriate in Ireland. My brother was single as long as he was in Ireland but met girls almost instantly once he was in the States - married to a fantastic girl for 10 years now!

Zubeneschamali

Hercules99 wrote: »

I would be so fearful that when a girl actually gets to know she'd think I'm a bit weird / different / unusual. How do you get rid of that fear?

The secret is that we are all weird/different/unusual. Girls too.

diveout

People need to get off the trip that there is any such thing as "typical" anymore.

Potatoeman

ongarboy wrote: »

I don't like generalising about any nationality but from my observations of living in and frequently visiting the States, I do notice the full on approach taken by strangers on first dates. I think it's due to less inhibition and if you have a dating equal who matches that, then it works really well.

A couple of times I've had people I met during our first encounter over there saying that they could see a future together with me. Even though we might have gotten on really well on that first date or encounter etc, that is just too much, too soon for me. My feelings for someone new could never adapt that quickly and it actually made me put my guard up as I felt slightly cornered by such statements or declarations.

But I do think a single guy would actually find it easier to meet a girl in the US then over here. There is less ambiguity, people are more direct and less inhibited. Situations and conversations that enable dates/phone number exchanges/follow up meets etc to be brought up in the States feel perfectly appropriate (fruit and veg section of supermarket, coffee queue, book store aisle etc) would seem bizarre or inappropriate in Ireland. My brother was single as long as he was in Ireland but met girls almost instantly once he was in the States - married to a fantastic girl for 10 years now!

Americans date more casually. Over here you need to really fancy someone and them you to go for a date. Its changed with internet dating for the better. Many Eastern Europeans are same, a few I dated thought we took it way too serious.

Americans date other people at the same time until they are exclusive which would be king of a no no over here too.

There was a thread in the ladies lounge or after hours about approaching women in a non pub enviroment and it seemed about 50/50 for and against. Which is odd considering how many people complain about the pub/club scene and meeting people. We seem very limited.

Daveysil15

Potatoeman wrote: »

Americans date more casually. Over here you need to really fancy someone and them you to go for a date. Its changed with internet dating for the better. Many Eastern Europeans are same, a few I dated thought we took it way too serious.

Americans date other people at the same time until they are exclusive which would be king of a no no over here too.

There was a thread in the ladies lounge or after hours about approaching women in a non pub enviroment and it seemed about 50/50 for and against. Which is odd considering how many people complain about the pub/club scene and meeting people. We seem very limited.

Well from what I've read on the online dating forum, there are serial daters who go on multiple dates. God I wish I had that many choices. But yeah a lot of people would see that as a no no I suppose.

I completely agree with your last sentence. I find the options are extremely limited here compared to Canada/U.S. Yeah people seem to be fairly divided on whether or not they like been approached outside of the pub environment. I actually started a thread about it a couple of years ago: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056632383

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never came across that attitude more than a few times. It's a poor way of covering up that she's just not interested in you IMO. It's always the same spiel; she's a bitch, lesbian, up herself or whatever nonsense. I've had plenty of women pass me over and, depressing as it is (to be left on the shelf) they're well within their right to be choosy.

It's like I said before, I get why girls generally aren't into me, it's the lies about the reasons that annoy me. :pac:
Also if people read a transcript of my friends and I when talking about women it reads an awful lot worse than it sounds in context. :P

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

It's like I said before, I get why girls generally aren't into me, it's the lies about the reasons that annoy me. :pac:
Also if people read a transcript of my friends and I when talking about women it reads an awful lot worse than it sounds in context. :P

Some guys can get nasty if she says "I'm not into you" whereas "I have a boyfriend" will circumvent this most of the time.

paddy1990

Deleted User wrote: »

It's like I said before, I get why girls generally aren't into me, it's the lies about the reasons that annoy me. :pac:

Just out of interest, why do you think they aren't into you?

paddy1990

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well from what I've read on the online dating forum, there are serial daters who go on multiple dates. God I wish I had that many choices. But yeah a lot of people would see that as a no no I suppose.

I completely agree with your last sentence. I find the options are extremely limited here compared to Canada/U.S. Yeah people seem to be fairly divided on whether or not they like been approached outside of the pub environment. I actually started a thread about it a couple of years ago: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056632383

The first reply practically explained it to you but years later you still haven't got it.

There is no problem with approaching a woman ANYWHERE, in Tesco, on the street, in a shop etc.

The prerequisite is that she has given you some kind of signal e.g eye contact/smile. If that isn't happening, then approaching them is a no no.

Classicporter

paddy1990 wrote: »

The first reply practically explained it to you but years later you still haven't got it.

There is no problem with approaching a woman ANYWHERE, in Tesco, on the street, in a shop etc.

The prerequisite is that she has given you some kind of signal e.g eye contact/smile. If that isn't happening, then approaching them is a no no.

I'very approached women during the day without any signals and ended up going out with or having see with these women. Why is it a "no no"?

paddy1990

paddy1990 wrote: »

Just out of interest, why do you think they aren't into you?

The morbid obesity and baldness. :P

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Some guys can get nasty if she says "I'm not into you" whereas "I have a boyfriend" will circumvent this most of the time.

Not exactly that, a quick lean-back on a night out is all I need. :P If it's someone I've been getting to know or when people say that my physical appearance doesn't matter that much, it's those lies that annoy me. :P

paddy1990

Classicporter wrote: »

I'very approached women during the day without any signals and ended up going out with or having see with these women. Why is it a "no no"?

Some of us value our time and don't particularly enjoy running around getting rejected over and over, which would lead to a bad reputation in relatively small town but each to their own. I don't doubt a huge numbers game would work. It's the time/effort involved, plus the constant rejection, that puts off a lot of guys I'd say. I do well from online dating so I would have absolutely no desire to run around getting rejected but I have met girls in shops/streets, all when they smiled at me first.