Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe

Morgans

Sea the Stars was good enough in May to win the Guineas. It is the best race at the time for the best horses (most valuable also) It would be wrong to say that connections went for all the best races at a range of distances. He went for the races that a top class middle distance 3yo would have gone for. Horses like Nashwan, Dancing Brave were good enough to win the guineas but connections never targeted them at mile races. Had they come back for the Sussex or the QEII there would be some point to the arguement. A top class 3yo that can win an all aged 10f race targets the guineas as their first race. Its not rocket science.

Complaining about Frankel not going for the Arc is the same as saying Kingman should have have been targetted at the Arc or Derby.

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

The Brave had a tremendous Arc but Manila ripped him apart. MANILA, still I wonder about that.

Manilla beat Dermot Weld's Theatrical a short neck in that race, Manila the 2nd greatest staying American Turf horse of all time being in such close proximity to Theatrical in that race shows how far below form Dancing Brave ran in that race.

They had some excuse about an eye injury in the race, but Dancing Brave's run in the race was lethargic and he was just gone at the end of an eight race season stretching from the Craven in April, 2,000 Guineas in May, Derby in June, Eclipse in early July and King George in late July, Select Stakes in September, Arc in early October and finally the Breeders Cup in November.

The horse was entitled to be tired at that stage, his only other defeat in the Epsom Derby just enhanced his greatness.

" the Derby was a very muddling-run race. They set off at a fast pace for the first two furlongs and unfortunately at that time Bold Arrangement, who was being ridden I think by (Chris) McCarron, came up underneath Dancing Brave's neck and knocked him right out of his stride.

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-10-31/sports/sp-8185_1_dancing-brave

Starkey employed exaggerated waiting tactics and Dancing Brave was close to last place entering the home straight. Switched to the outside to make his challenge, Dancing Brave accelerated in the last quarter mile, being clocked at 10.3 seconds for the penultimate furlong. He failed to catch the leader Shahrastani finishing second by half a length. His jockey,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Brave

To do what he did over such a range of distances in such a short time is simply outstanding. Judging him on his end of season defeat behind Manila, Theatrical and Estrapade is like Judging Frankel on his scramble home from Zoffany in the St James Palace Stakes.

There haven't been multi-season Champions who take on all comers in multiple countries over a wide range of distances champions since the days of Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef. Nijinsky was about as close as they've come to those types since.

And the fact is that Frankel lacked the constitution as 3yo to do what Nijinsky, Dancing Brave and Sea The Stars did.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

Manilla beat Dermot Weld's Theatrical a short neck in that race, Manila the 2nd greatest staying American Turf horse of all time being in such close proximity to Theatrical in that race shows how far below form Dancing Brave ran in that race.

They had some excuse about an eye injury in the race, but Dancing Brave's run in the race was lethargic and he was just gone at the end of an eight race season stretching from the Craven in April, 2,000 Guineas in May, Derby in June, Eclipse in early July and King George in late July, Select Stakes in September, Arc in early October and finally the Breeders Cup in November.

The horse was entitled to be tired at that stage, his only other defeat in the Epsom Derby just enhanced his greatness. http://articles.latimes.com/1986-10-31/sports/sp-8185_1_dancing-brave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_Brave

That's a bit of a stretch. with horses such as English Chanel,Cougar II,Secretariat,Round Table and a few others one would go a long way before saying Manila was Americas 2nd Greatest turf stayer of all time.

tryfix

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

That's a bit of a stretch. with horses such as English Chanel,Cougar II,Secretariat,Round Table and a few others one would go a long way before saying Manila was Americas 2nd Greatest turf stayer of all time.

Sorry that was some blurb from the time of the race putting him behind John Henry.

I can't fault Secretariat at all, he was genuinely awesome and probably the greatest of all time.


English Channel doesn't hit the spot for me, that 7l soft ground Breeders Cup Turf win looks mighty impressive with Dylan Thomas beaten 8 3/4l, but that was Dylan Thomas's 9th run of a year where he'd won the King George, Irish Champion Stakes and Arc, he wasn't himself in the BC Turf and to prove it the 7l 2nd in that Breeders Cup Turf Shamdinan in the 2 races before and the 2 races after that Breeders Cup Turf had been beaten 7l in the Man Of War, 5l in the Gp2 Jamaica handicap and 18l in the Gulfstream Park Turf Stakes and 22l in the San Juan Capistrano Invitational.

UrbanFret

The real Dancing brave didn't show up at Santa Anita back in 86. As tryfix rightly posted he was gone , his season finally caught up with him. His defeat at epsom only added to his legend. The memory of his ultimately futile charge down those famous cambers scorched his name into Derby history forever. Starkey carried the blame to the grave , Harwood never scaled those heights again whilst Eddery enjoyed an alliance with Abdulla that enjoyed worldwide success. The years since have done nothing to dull those memories. Sea the stars the only horse to have come close since. Again I'll concede that sea bird looked an awesome performer, but sadly before my time. Back to treve she possess what all the greats have. The ability to quicken more than once in a race , that's what separates the good from the great!

FIVE2_THREE

UrbanFret wrote: »

The real Dancing brave didn't show up at Santa Anita back in 86. As tryfix rightly posted he was gone , his season finally caught up with him. His defeat at epsom only added to his legend. The memory of his ultimately futile charge down those famous cambers scorched his name into Derby history forever. Starkey carried the blame to the grave , Harwood never scaled those heights again whilst Eddery enjoyed an alliance with Abdulla that enjoyed worldwide success. The years since have done nothing to dull those memories. Sea the stars the only horse to have come close since. Again I'll concede that sea bird looked an awesome performer, but sadly before my time. Back to treve she possess what all the greats have. The ability to quicken more than once in a race , that's what separates the good from the great!

In regards to Treve I Personally believe that she is just a Long champ specialist Yes some may say her defeats should be excused and laid at the feet of her having a bad back or not liking the ground but I'm not as gullible.

Peintre Celebre

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

In regards to Treve I Personally believe that she is just a Long champ specialist Yes some may say her defeats should be excused and laid at the feet of her having a bad back or not liking the ground but I'm not as gullible.

Your argument could be stronger if 2 of her 3 defeats didn't come at Longchamp, she did break the track record at Chantiy too. Timeform do actually have her defeat to Cirrus as a pound better performance than her arc thanks to Flintshire

sdoc13

I see timeform have given a very favourable mention to Harp Stars arc run. Sectional of 33.55 for the last 600m seriously good. They have promoted to horse to second on that basis.

Now if only the Japanese would hire a decent jockey they might have a chance.

dave3004

Lack of pace in that arc caught out jap jocks. They only know one way over there. It's meyhem out in front. I had a monkey on kizuna at 16/1. Would have given it a real shake I reckon