Vladamir Putin a clear and present danger to peace in Europe.

mulbot

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Russian troops had an agreement with Ukraine to have support troops in their bases in Crimea, which included their families, they lived in harmony with their neighbors, as did most of the different other nationality's did. Nato decided to stir things up and fúcked another country up, like Libya,Iraq, Afghanistan, there are a few in Africa they are trying to fúck up. Look At the US policy in Iraq, the US support the isis with arms and finance in Syria, then bomb the fúck out of them in the area they have claimed as an Islamic Caliph.

exactly,paid Ukraine over half a billion a year,aswell as discounts on gas etc to be allowed keep troops there,and this "invasion" we saw on our news,papers etc were simply just the normal day to day russian troops that have been there all thye time as part of the Moscow/Kiev deal

XVII

lol, some of you are seriously brainwashed by the media. "Invasion", hahaha

K-9

I don't know if it was before the declaration of independence but I take it we all recognise there were unofficial troops and equipment provided? The Russian denials reached near Comical Ali levels of disinfo so I presume nobody actually believes the Russians on that?

sin_city

K-9 wrote: »

I don't know if it was before the declaration of independence but I take it we all recognise there were unofficial troops and equipment provided? The Russian denials reached near Comical Ali levels of disinfo so I presume nobody actually believes the Russians on that?

No, I don't accept this....it was clear the many people were not privy to the troops based in Crimea. I think this and much of the boogie man propaganda being transmitted in much of the western media is leading some to actually think it's all Russia's fault, specifically Putin when in fact it was western powers that instigated the coup that took down a democratically elected government.

Russia had to respond regarding the sanctions and I think they've done the right thing.

Europe needs to say no to all of this US backed stuff. Russia is interested in doing business with Europe.

The sanctions will hurt sectors in some European countries...and for what? Russia taking back Ukraine through a democratic vote?

Up until now all western media has been following the line from Washington...good to see German paper Handelsblatt taking a different line recently....hopefully a start of things to come.....At the very least Europe should have its own voice in these affairs rather than being a lapdog for Obama.

CptMackey

sin_city wrote: »

Please retract your above statement as incorrect:

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/03/russia-allowed-to-have-25000-troops-in.html

Happy to educate you on this but I guess you're AWOL now because your previous post is lacking in factual content. :rolleyes:

Not awol asleep. :rolleyes:

You seem to be pro Putin . So I don't expect you to agree.
Putting troops in the parliament and only allowing in pro Russian politicians to push through an illegal declaration of independence while Russian troops were taking over outside is an invasion. Russian troops were on the ground in the end of February and they declared independence around the 15the of March.

mulbot

CptMackey wrote: »

Not awol asleep. :rolleyes:

You seem to be pro Putin . So I don't expect you to agree.
Putting troops in the parliament and only allowing in pro Russian politicians to push through an illegal declaration of independence while Russian troops were taking over outside is an invasion. Russian troops were on the ground in the end of February and they declared independence around the 15the of March.

Why was it illegal? The vote of the Crimean parliament was official, just because the US and some other countries say otherwise? Russian troops were on the ground for years there, was never a prob, they only flexed their muscle AFTER the vote for independence

CptMackey

mulbot wrote: »

Why was it illegal? The vote of the Crimean parliament was official, just because the US and some other countries say otherwise?

The parliament was under the control of pro Putin troops who only allowed in pro Russian members for the vote. That's illegal in any country.

Just because Putin approved you thinks it's ok.

mulbot

CptMackey wrote: »

The parliament was under the control of pro Putin troops who only allowed in pro Russian members for the vote. That's illegal in any country.

Just because Putin approved you thinks it's ok.

The Majority were pro Russian,tatars, and Ukraine representatives were allowed vote, hence there wasn't 100% in favour( and in a territory where the majority of people are Russian anyway, the vote was always gonna be to Re-join)

sin_city

CptMackey wrote: »

Not awol asleep. :rolleyes:

You seem to be pro Putin . So I don't expect you to agree.
Putting troops in the parliament and only allowing in pro Russian politicians to push through an illegal declaration of independence while Russian troops were taking over outside is an invasion. Russian troops were on the ground in the end of February and they declared independence around the 15the of March.

I'm pro truth....and you not informed about the agreement between Ukraine and Russian troops in Crimea.

Please spread your propaganda somewhere else...It's like someone spreading slurry all over this thread to people that want the truth.

sin_city

CptMackey wrote: »

The parliament was under the control of pro Putin troops who only allowed in pro Russian members for the vote. That's illegal in any country.

Just because Putin approved you thinks it's ok.

Is this an opinion or do you have like for example a recording of Putin saying who he wants in the new parliament once he takes over?

Would you say it would be worse for another country to pay protesters to incite violence and overthrow an elected government and then produce a video showing a pretty girl which would go viral online, mask the true neo nazi face of the coup behind this video and then fool western citizens into the true nature of the coup in Ukraine.....All hypothetical of course

comongethappy

sin_city wrote: »

I'm pro truth....and you not informed about the agreement between Ukraine and Russian troops in Crimea.

Do you mean this agreement of the base lease?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Kharkiv_Pact

I can't find the text of the treaty authorising the seizure of 40+ Ukrainian naval vessels & scores of military aircraft?

I had assumed the framework authorising the Russian naval & marine presence precluded the use of weapons outside authorised areas, attacking Ukrainian state facilities & seizure of state military assets?

(Though if the treaty did say it was fine I'm happy to be corrected).

CptMackey

sin_city wrote: »

I'm pro truth....and you not informed about the agreement between Ukraine and Russian troops in Crimea.

Please spread your propaganda somewhere else...It's like someone spreading slurry all over this thread to people that want the truth.

There was an agreement to station troops there not take over which is what they did. The numbers increased and increased which went against the agreement. But you don't want to hear that.

You don't want truth all you want is to spread your love for Putin over the thread. That is the slurry to which you refer.


As for propaganda you are one to talk.
You are obviously and unashamedly pro Putin so arguing with you is like arguing in circles. You believe what you want to believe but Putin annexed Crimea in a fashion befitting a dictator and now he is stirring unrest in the east of Ukraine.

I suggest you read " the man without a face the unlikely rise of Vladimir Putin " by massa gessen

K-9

sin_city wrote: »

No, I don't accept this....it was clear the many people were not privy to the troops based in Crimea. I think this and much of the boogie man propaganda being transmitted in much of the western media is leading some to actually think it's all Russia's fault, specifically Putin when in fact it was western powers that instigated the coup that took down a democratically elected government.

Russia had to respond regarding the sanctions and I think they've done the right thing.

Europe needs to say no to all of this US backed stuff. Russia is interested in doing business with Europe.

The sanctions will hurt sectors in some European countries...and for what? Russia taking back Ukraine through a democratic vote?

Up until now all western media has been following the line from Washington...good to see German paper Handelsblatt taking a different line recently....hopefully a start of things to come.....At the very least Europe should have its own voice in these affairs rather than being a lapdog for Obama.

Well you went off in a bit of a tangent there. I became aware of the bases pretty quickly into the whole thing.

Anyway, it was done to death at the time, became a bit of a running joke. If you don't believe the Russians didn't provide expertise and equipment that is up to you. I thought we'd have at least agreement on that but it takes all kinds!

K-9

sin_city wrote: »

I'm pro truth....and you not informed about the agreement between Ukraine and Russian troops in Crimea.

Please spread your propaganda somewhere else...It's like someone spreading slurry all over this thread to people that want the truth.

CptMackey wrote: »

There was an agreement to station troops there not take over which is what they did. The numbers increased and increased which went against the agreement. But you don't want to hear that.

You don't want truth all you want is to spread your love for Putin over the thread. That is the slurry to which you refer.


As for propaganda you are one to talk.
You are obviously and unashamedly pro Putin so arguing with you is like arguing in circles. You believe what you want to believe but Putin annexed Crimea in a fashion befitting a dictator and now he is stirring unrest in the east of Ukraine.

I suggest you read " the man without a face the unlikely rise of Vladimir Putin " by massa gessen

Mod:

Slurry indeed! Come on, both of ye should know spreading that crap doesn't end well. Keep it civil.

InTheTrees

mulbot wrote: »

Why was it illegal? The vote of the Crimean parliament was official, just because the US and some other countries say otherwise?

Oh god give me strength.

What about the Ukrainian Constitution????

A majority of a district, or a town, or a village, or a street, in any country doesnt just get to vote itself independence.

What if Tralee decided to just vote for independance? Or County Galway? Or Sea View Crescent in Wexford?

Of course I wouldnt expect russians to understand seeing as putin has pretty much sh*t on the russian constitution.

mulbot

InTheTrees wrote: »

Oh god give me strength.

What about the Ukrainian Constitution????

A majority of a district, or a town, or a village, or a street, in any country doesnt just get to vote itself independence.

What if Tralee decided to just vote for independance? Or County Galway? Or Sea View Crescent in Wexford?

Of course I wouldnt expect russians to understand seeing as putin has pretty much sh*t on the russian constitution.

do tralee,galway etc have their own parliaments?

InTheTrees

mulbot wrote: »

do tralee,galway etc have their own parliaments?

Oh boy. really?

You dont understand the analogy do you?

Anyway many countries have regional parliaments, it doesn't mean they can just vote themselves independent.

mulbot

InTheTrees wrote: »

Oh boy. really?

You dont understand the analogy do you?

Anyway many countries have regional parliaments, it doesn't mean they can just vote themselves independent.

The Autonomous Crimean Republic has its own constitution and parliament, the Supreme Council of Crimea, which dates back to when Crimea was a soviet satellite state!

Republic="a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives"

how let me ask you,does any republic/state etc gain independence? does it sit around and wait to be given away at the behest of it's "owners"? hardly,if that was the case we'd be still under british rule

paulmcshane

CptMackey wrote: »

Not awol asleep. :rolleyes:

You seem to be pro Putin . So I don't expect you to agree.
Putting troops in the parliament and only allowing in pro Russian politicians to push through an illegal declaration of independence while Russian troops were taking over outside is an invasion. Russian troops were on the ground in the end of February and they declared independence around the 15the of March.

Don't think anyone's pro Putin. It's the embarassing amount of western media drivel that people seem to lap up without a thought to what western powers have perpetrated in the last 15 years alone.

CptMackey

paulmcshane wrote: »

Don't think anyone's pro Putin. It's the embarassing amount of western media drivel that people seem to lap up without a thought to what western powers have perpetrated in the last 15 years alone.

Yes they are or else they wouldn't be all for Russia annexing Crimea.

Why such hatred for the west anyway? Is this the new cool thing to be into. I prefer to live in the west than in a Russia were there is no free press , and you have a president who will never be out of office due to his complete control of every aspect of Russian society. Anti gay laws and requirements to register as a media outlet if you have 3000 or more readers of a blog etc .

Give me the western powers any day

Hidalgo

CptMackey wrote: »

Yes they are or else they wouldn't be all for Russia annexing Crimea.

Why such hatred for the west anyway? Is this the new cool thing to be into. I prefer to live in the west than in a Russia were there is no free press , and you have a president who will never be out of office due to his complete control of every aspect of Russian society. Anti gay laws and requirements to register as a media outlet if you have 3000 or more readers of a blog etc .

Give me the western powers any day

I can only speak for myself.
I don't have any hate per say if the West. But I do feel people are ready to fully believe the west's argument as 100% truth and honesty whilst the other side, in this case Russia are the only ones dealing in propaganda.
Personally I'd take most of what Putin says with a fair old dollop of scepticism. However I'd also be wary of what Obama, Cameron, EU etc say. The west is well versed in dirty politics, and they ain't afraid to use it.

mulbot

CptMackey wrote: »

Yes they are or else they wouldn't be all for Russia annexing Crimea.

Why such hatred for the west anyway? Is this the new cool thing to be into. I prefer to live in the west than in a Russia were there is no free press , and you have a president who will never be out of office due to his complete control of every aspect of Russian society. Anti gay laws and requirements to register as a media outlet if you have 3000 or more readers of a blog etc .

Give me the western powers any day

Russia isn't so bad,have you been there? I have,don't see the hugely negative issues as obvious as what is represented in our media-fair enough,putin rules quite strictly,but you can't say our western media is any better,appearing as free press and yet very governed in how any reports appear to the public-think,fox news,cnn etc-

the Western powers; are they not the powers that have bankrupt their own countries,puting the burden of debt on the people of those countries,who have no choice but to pay for those mistakes/decisions,taxes upon taxes upon taxes- Russia has built itself back up under Putin,as he has been sorting out the messes of previous leaders,

CptMackey

mulbot wrote: »

Russia isn't so bad,have you been there? I have,don't see the hugely negative issues as obvious as what is represented in our media-fair enough,putin rules quite strictly,but you can't say our western media is any better,appearing as free press and yet very governed in how any reports appear to the public-think,fox news,cnn etc-

the Western powers; are they not the powers that have bankrupt their own countries,puting the burden of debt on the people of those countries,who have no choice but to pay for those mistakes/decisions,taxes upon taxes upon taxes- Russia has built itself back up under Putin,as he has been sorting out the messes of previous leaders,

I'm sure Russia is a lovely place but in my opinion it would be better if Putin didn't control every aspect. Granted Russia should never go back to what it was like under Boris yeltsin.

However the press is under fierce control and can't report negatively about Putin which is a flaw. I think Putin in the long run is bad for Russia.

mulbot

CptMackey wrote: »

I'm sure Russia is a lovely place but in my opinion it would be better if Putin didn't control every aspect. Granted Russia should never go back to what it was like under Boris yeltsin.

However the press is under fierce control and can't report negatively about Putin which is a flaw. I think Putin in the long run is bad for Russia.

fair enough-in relation to the OP though,he is not a threat to europe(as we are being led to believe),europe and russia have a complex connection that frightens a (very) bankrupt US,they are the threat to european peace

Corkfeen

mulbot wrote: »

Russia isn't so bad,have you been there? I have,don't see the hugely negative issues as obvious as what is represented in our media-fair enough,putin rules quite strictly,but you can't say our western media is any better,appearing as free press and yet very governed in how any reports appear to the public-think,fox news,cnn etc-

The media is always going to have biases, it's pretty much impossible to eliminate bias entirely. However critical thinking has always been something one is expected to do. In Russia, the press have a legitimate reason to fear for their lives if they don't report positively on the Kremlin. So while western journalism has it's flaws, it's leagues ahead of that of Russia.

InTheTrees

Comparing right wing corporate ownership of fox news and CNN and MSNBC in "the west" to restricting free speech in Russia is totally inaccurate to be honest.

Short of child porn, you can publish pretty much anything you want in the west. You can print a newspaper in london calling for the overthrow of the british government and the public execution of the royal family.

You can publish pictures of you pissing on the US constitution in front of the white house if you want.

So its a bit of a false equivalence isnt it?

I'd like to see someone start a LGBT news site in russia for instance.

Dont even think of criticising putin either.

InTheTrees

mulbot wrote: »

Russia isn't so bad,have you been there? I have,don't see the hugely negative issues as obvious as what is represented in our media-fair enough,putin rules quite strictly,but you can't say our western media is any better,appearing as free press and yet very governed in how any reports appear to the public-think,fox news,cnn etc-

"-fair enough,putin rules quite strictly,but you can't say our western media is any better,"

To me this makes very little sense. Our "western media" doesnt enact laws. Our western media isnt the president (or prime minister or emperor or whatever post putin has adopted).

What has our western media done to restrict free speech?

InTheTrees

mulbot wrote: »

Russia has built itself back up under Putin,as he has been sorting out the messes of previous leaders,

Russia has more oil than saudi and a life expectancy less than Egypt. They have horrendous social problems.

Its teetering on the edge of third world status.

Putin is robbing the people blind to pacify his oligarch friends.

Busted Flat.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Russia has more oil than saudi and a life expectancy less than Egypt. They have horrendous social problems.

Its teetering on the edge of third world status.

Putin is robbing the people blind to pacify his oligarch friends.

What about the oligarch's with own private armys that have taken over Ukraine.

sin_city

CptMackey wrote: »

I'm sure Russia is a lovely place but in my opinion it would be better if Putin didn't control every aspect. Granted Russia should never go back to what it was like under Boris yeltsin.

However the press is under fierce control and can't report negatively about Putin which is a flaw. I think Putin in the long run is bad for Russia.

Who do you think is a bigger threat to world peace...Obama or Putin?