Vladamir Putin a clear and present danger to peace in Europe.

Lemming

mulbot wrote: »

recent events in ukraine show otherwise

Where were the attacks on Russians living in the Ukraine before the east of the country declared itself autonomous?

Corkfeen

Similar to many discussions on Israel,many people seem to redirect criticism of Russia under the bizarre term Russophobic. There is reason to be concerned when countries seem to be going down old routes expanding their territory. Pointing out a state's issues or potential long term agenda is logic, reducing discussion on foreign policy to a supposed irrational fear when there's rational grounds to discuss it is ignorance.

And using Russia Today as your main source when their journalists have resigned because of how they are used as propaganda pawns is bizarre. You have use a critical faculties when questionable sources crop up. But apparently that only applies to Western Media with many posters.

Busted Flat. wrote: »

He could talk to some of the Loolaghs that control the GOP in the US, there he would get a mind blowing awakening.:cool:

You really do believe that people don't highlight and object to counter progressive laws in the US? Shall I point you to the striking down of DOMA? People are perfectly capable of holding absurd views even in Ireland. However once it gets enshrined in law and shows no possibility of being repealed, what exactly is wrong with highlighting this?

CptMackey

mulbot wrote: »

recent events in ukraine show otherwise

So the Ukraine army tries to repel an invasion from Russia and that's how you justify Putin wanting to help Russians in other states?

There wouldn't be an issue if Putin wasn't intent on warmongering. He seems intent on carving out a new Soviet union

mulbot

Lemming wrote: »

Where were the attacks on Russians living in the Ukraine before the east of the country declared itself autonomous?

i have the word RECENT in my post

mulbot

CptMackey wrote: »

So the Ukraine army tries to repel an invasion from Russia and that's how you justify Putin wanting to help Russians in other states?

There wouldn't be an issue if Putin wasn't intent on warmongering. He seems intent on carving out a new Soviet union

so you think the whole thing is Ukraine/Russia- Putin got involved because of the huge US interest and financing of Ukraine

InTheTrees

mulbot wrote: »

Putin got involved because of the huge US interest and financing of Ukraine

Ukraine is an independent country you know.

Putin, however much you love him, doesn't get to invade countries because the US invests in them.

Do you know how many US factories are in Ireland? Does that mean any random European leader with a grudge would be justified in invading? Maybe the UK can take Donegal, just because they don't like the US being involved in Ireland. ha ha ha.

Why shouldn't the US invest in Ukraine? Why cant ukraine join NATO? Or the EU if it wants to? Is Russian investment any comparison to western investment? Does russia make anything that anyone really wants?

I dont get why you want to give Putin control over them? What did they do to you?

CptMackey

mulbot wrote: »

so you think the whole thing is Ukraine/Russia- Putin got involved because of the huge US interest and financing of Ukraine

Ukraine is independent so anybody can invest . It is no reason for Putin to invade Crimea and cause an uprising in the East.

He is like a child who gets upset when his friends play with some one else. Except for the fact that he has an army and runs a police state

Boskowski

You can't really believe anything what s been said in the media anyway.

Tbh the whole thing is just as likely to be stirred by the US via their EU vehicle right from the start - the Ukraine thing is what I'm talking about. Obvious reason being that Mr Putin is refusing to let western corporates take over Russian resources and economy and Mr Putins refusal to have Russia been driven into our western debt spiral dependency.
Might be just a personal political believes thing, but for me thats much more likely than the drivel we're being fed by our lads.

Even on the surface its very much the West that is on a confrontational course here. After the wall came down Russia was promised that NATO would not be expanded beyond the former iron curtain. Now there are NATO installations in the NATO member Poland and the latest is we're showing to have designs on the Ukraine. But sure its Russia who's being aggressive and imperialistic and needs to be shown.

People need to get away from that notion that we're all goody two shoes and its all for freedom and democracy. We're just as ruthless as everyone else we claim to be is.

InTheTrees

sin_city wrote: »

How many people has Russia been responsible for killing in the past 20 years? I know it was 0 in Crimea....

Russia has a pretty bad record of relations with its neighbours. With no serious global reach anymore they like to Fcuk with their old soviet allies.

Post 1994. At least 100,000 dead in the first Chechen War. And at least 50,000 dead in the second.

A brutal savage ethnic cleansing against Muslims. (for which I hear absolutely no mention in these threads about how awful the west is treating muslims).

In Chechnya they used to blow up the prisoners so the relatives couldnt give their loved ones a real burial. The stories out of Chechnya are as brutal as any isis atrocities.

And then there was their invasion of Georgia in 2008. Another old soviet neighbour.

But hey, maybe you didnt know about these events huh?

It goes some way towards showing how putin is just a tad unpredictable when dealing with his neighbours and why the counties next door want very little to do with russia.

mulbot

InTheTrees wrote: »

Ukraine is an independent country you know.

Putin, however much you love him, doesn't get to invade countries because the US invests in them.

Do you know how many US factories are in Ireland? Does that mean any random European leader with a grudge would be justified in invading? Maybe the UK can take Donegal, just because they don't like the US being involved in Ireland. ha ha ha.

Why shouldn't the US invest in Ukraine? Why cant ukraine join NATO? Or the EU if it wants to? Is Russian investment any comparison to western investment? Does russia make anything that anyone really wants?

I dont get why you want to give Putin control over them? What did they do to you?

Did Russia not provide the bailout for Ukraine,pissing off the EU and especially the US,. So economically putin has a major interest in any outside interference

InTheTrees

Boskowski wrote: »

Tbh the whole thing is just as likely to be stirred by the US via their EU vehicle right from the start - the Ukraine thing is what I'm talking about. Obvious reason being that Mr Putin is refusing to let western corporates take over Russian resources and economy and Mr Putins refusal to have Russia been driven into our western debt spiral dependency.

Why would Western investment in Ukraine mean the west taking russian resources??

Ukraine is an independent country. You know that right? Its not part of russia.

Why shouldnt Ukraine have US and Western investment? Can you try and explain that? Why do you think putin should have anything to say about it?

And What russian investment is there?

InTheTrees

mulbot wrote: »

So economically putin has a major interest in any outside interference

How does investment become interference?

If Intel want to build a plan in Kiev how is that Interference? And isnt there just as much room for a russian chip maker (are there any?) to do the same? It doesnt have to be one or the other does it?

If Intel builds a plant in Cork does that mean the US is "interfering" with Ireland?

To be honest I cant really think of any russian industries that make anything that we really need anyway.

mulbot

InTheTrees wrote: »

Why would Western investment in Ukraine mean the west taking russian resources??

Ukraine is an independent country. You know that right? Its not part of russia.

Why shouldnt Ukraine have US and Western investment? Can you try and explain that? Why do you think putin should have anything to say about it?

And What russian investment is there?

because of the 15 or 16 billion Russia has loaned Ukraine as part of the bailout,

srsly78

InTheTrees wrote: »

Russia has a pretty bad record of relations with its neighbours. With no serious global reach anymore they like to Fcuk with their old soviet allies.

Post 1994. At least 100,000 dead in the first Chechen War. And at least 50,000 dead in the second.

A brutal savage ethnic cleansing against Muslims. (for which I hear absolutely no mention in these threads about how awful the west is treating muslims).

In Chechnya they used to blow up the prisoners so the relatives couldnt give their loved ones a real burial. The stories out of Chechnya are as brutal as any isis atrocities.

And then there was their invasion of Georgia in 2008. Another old soviet neighbour.

But hey, maybe you didnt know about these events huh?

It goes some way towards showing how putin is just a tad unpredictable when dealing with his neighbours and why the counties next door want very little to do with russia.

Chechyna is not a neighbour of Russia. Similarly Cork is not a neighbour of Ireland.

InTheTrees

Boskowski wrote: »

After the wall came down Russia was promised that NATO would not be expanded beyond the former iron curtain. Now there are NATO installations in the NATO member Poland and the latest is we're showing to have designs on the Ukraine. .

You dont think that perhaps russia invading two of its neighbours maybe had something to do with the other neighbours wanting protection do you?

Lemming

mulbot wrote: »

i have the word RECENT in my post

And? My question still stands.

But given your incredibly concise and deeply illuminating reply, I've got a second question to add to that first question, which you still haven't answered by the way. What sort of timeframe does the word "recent" have attached to it? How far back is one allowed to go? Three months? Six months? One year? Five years?

Boskowski

InTheTrees wrote: »

You dont think that perhaps russia invading two of its neighbours maybe had something to do with the other neighbours wanting protection do you?

I understand why Poland wanted in. Historically they've always been swept away in the wars between Russia and someone or the other pretty much going back to Napoleon.

However, I can also understand how expanding western influence right up the Russian borders (Ukraine) is just a step too far which Russia simply cannot accept. How anyone else here cannot see that is something I don't understand. What would the USA do if Mexico or Canada turned Russian ally with all its (military) implications?

Of course the west knows that, but yet pushes the buttons - sure its all for freedom and democracy.

Edit: For me its clear as day that the West is trying to isolate Russia. They're playing this 'great game' right now starting with stirring the Maidan troubles. Its a dirty game with a clear objective and how people dismiss at least the possibility that we actually are the aggressive force in this I cannot understand. Ask yourself - like in a whodunnit - who gains?

mulbot

Lemming wrote: »

And? My question still stands.

But given your incredibly concise and deeply illuminating reply, I've got a second question to add to that first question, which you still haven't answered by the way. What sort of timeframe does the word "recent" have attached to it? How far back is one allowed to go? Three months? Six months? One year? Five years?

well i suppose you might call recent as the time in around all the conflict started

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

InTheTrees

Boskowski wrote: »

However, I can also understand how expanding western influence right up the Russian borders (Ukraine) is just a step too far which Russia simply cannot accept. How anyone else here cannot see that is something I don't understand. What would the USA do if Mexico or Canada turned Russian ally with all its (military) implications?

Well maybe we thought the cold war was over and we could all get along?

You seem to be saying that because russia is very sensitive, they cant tolerate western investment (or influence) in any of its neighbours?

SO what are we to do? Where dose that end? If Intel wants to build a factory in Ukraine then russia might invade because it doesnt like western influence so close to its border? Thats just weird.

And what kinds of investment does russia make in its former allies? What does russia make that it needs foreign manufacturing? ANd because they can get teir sh*t together does it mean we all have to pay for it?

I dont get why we have to be sympathetic to a basically dysfunctional regime in russia that is paranoid about investment?

It would be like the UK objecting to US factories in ireland.

mulbot

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well maybe we thought the cold war was over and we could all get along?

You seem to be saying that because russia is very sensitive, they cant tolerate western investment (or influence) in any of its neighbours?

SO what are we to do? Where dose that end? If Intel wants to build a factory in Ukraine then russia might invade because it doesnt like western influence so close to its border? Thats just weird.

And what kinds of investment does russia make in its former allies? What does russia make that it needs foreign manufacturing? ANd because they can get teir sh*t together does it mean we all have to pay for it?

I dont get why we have to be sympathetic to a basically dysfunctional regime in russia that is paranoid about investment?

It would be like the UK objecting to US factories in ireland.

If you think it's about some investment factories then you need to educate yourself further in the matter,-maybe try looking at military influences

InTheTrees

mulbot wrote: »

If you think it's about some investment factories then you need to educate yourself further in the matter,-maybe try looking at military influences

And what are these Military Influences in Ukraine that Putin objects to?

What are they?

And you still havent said why russia gets to dictate who Ukraine does business with?

Up until this current fiasco we havent been enemies of russia since the cold war.

Boskowski

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well maybe we thought the cold war was over and we could all get along?

Well here is exactly my point. If we could all get along why are we then trying push push push all the time? Will the West not rest until the last place on earth is owned by corporates and gutted for some Wall Street shareholders profits? And if someone doesn't play along and wants it their own way we keep pushing?

Don't kid yourself there is no all get along and all happy developed free democratic family. There are very dirty games being played and we play them as dirty as anyone and its all about resources and influence and power and money. That freedom and democracy stuff you see on Sky News is just a load of smokescreen bull.

Russia is simply not going to have it and I can't blame them.

InTheTrees

Boskowski wrote: »

Well here is exactly my point. If we could all get along why are we then trying push push push all the time? Will the West not rest until the last place on earth is owned by corporates and gutted for some Wall Street shareholders profits? And if someone doesn't play along and wants it their own way we keep pushing?.

Well I agree that the unrelenting expansion of capitalism is the cause of a lot of problems.

But the russians arent communists anymore. You think the russians arent capitalists too?

They just dont make anything that anybody wants.

And anyway, why do they get to interfere in Ukraine? Why is that okay for you just because you dont like the US?

Russia can invade its neighbours because you dont like western investment?

Poor f'ing Ukrainians.

InTheTrees

Boskowski wrote: »

Russia is simply not going to have it and I can't blame them.

So you want some kind anti-capitalist war?

In Ukraine?

mulbot

InTheTrees wrote: »

And what are these Military Influences in Ukraine that Putin objects to?

What are they?

And you still havent said why russia gets to dictate who Ukraine does business with?

Up until this current fiasco we havent been enemies of russia since the cold war.

russia gave Ukraine a multi billion dollar bailout-this massively pissed above all,the US-so with american help all this fiasco started- so as a leader of a country do you not see why Putin would want to protect his interests,

comongethappy

Boskowski wrote: »

Well here is exactly my point. If we could all get along why are we then trying push push push all the time? Will the West not rest until the last place on earth is owned by corporates and gutted for some Wall Street shareholders profits? And if someone doesn't play along and wants it their own way we keep pushing?

Don't kid yourself there is no all get along and all happy developed free democratic family. There are very dirty games being played and we play them as dirty as anyone and its all about resources and influence and power and money.

Strange?

Russia is one if the most capitalist nations on earth, with far less social supports than the wicked west?

Not to mention one of the most authoritarian.

Hidalgo

InTheTrees wrote: »

How does investment become interference?

There hasn't been investment in Ukraine, more a case of loans and bail outs. Whoever provides this finance is going to to play a role in the reciepient's affairs whether the bail out comes from Russia, USA or the IMF

comongethappy

mulbot wrote: »

russia gave Ukraine a multi billion dollar bailout-this massively pissed above all,the US-so with american help all this fiasco started- so as a leader of a country do you not see why Putin would want to protect his interests,

Almost.

The Ukrainian president wanted to open trade links with the EU..... (which both the EU & Ukrainian parliament ended up rejecting anyway).

Vladi countered with a very large cash offer to keep Ukraine from trading with other countries.

Hidalgo

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well maybe we thought the cold war was over and we could all get along?

You seem to be saying that because russia is very sensitive, they cant tolerate western investment (or influence) in any of its neighbours?

SO what are we to do? Where dose that end? If Intel wants to build a factory in Ukraine then russia might invade because it doesnt like western influence so close to its border? Thats just weird.

And what kinds of investment does russia make in its former allies? What does russia make that it needs foreign manufacturing? ANd because they can get teir sh*t together does it mean we all have to pay for it?

I dont get why we have to be sympathetic to a basically dysfunctional regime in russia that is paranoid about investment?

It would be like the UK objecting to US factories in ireland.

Russia is as you say sensitive to western investment to a nation on its doorstep as the west would be to Russia providing finance to a nation within the west's sphere of influence.

I think the likes of the IMF and World Bank and the US itself see Russia as a massive economic thteat to its global grip as Russia is part of BRICS. They along with China are massive economic players and along with a potential economic power in Brazil (who America have been 'interested' in since the 1960s) provide another option of much needed finance to struggling and developing nations, raw material rich nations.