Vladamir Putin a clear and present danger to peace in Europe.

mulbot

Phoenix wrote: »

Excellent contribution,so tell me what makes the man "great"the illegal annexation of Crimea?the proxy war he has instigated in the eastern part of Ukraine which threatens to destabilise Europe,The archaic and brutal oppressive regime in place which relegates LGBT people and dissenters of his political will to below second class citizens?

He is showing that he has balls-something the leaders of alot of countries(ireland included) seem to be lacking. It's about time someone stood up to the US and it's european puppet countries.

the_syco

sin_city wrote: »

Again, why did NATO expand and place missiles in Poland and the like…Why was Victoria Nuland involved in placing Nazis into the Ukrainian government which overthrew the democratically elected one?

Poland fears ones of Putins missile "accidentally" hitting it, so they asked the Americans for free missile defence. THey probably know how the Soviets think. America jumped at the chance.

PopePalpatine

mulbot wrote: »

He is showing that he has balls-something the leaders of alot of countries(ireland included) seem to be lacking. It's about time someone stood up to the US and it's european puppet countries.

No, he's just a bully. He bullies journalists, he bullies the dissenters and he bullies LGBT people. Being a bully doesn't give you balls.

Manach

Off course if the West wished to do something about civil rights violations they could perhaps focus on those that crack down on religious groups (such as China's recent moves in its western provences against Muslims), but that would hardly be a cause to rally the liberals around would it.

carpejugulum

Manach wrote: »

Off course if the West wished to do something about civil rights violations they could perhaps focus on those that crack down on religious groups (such as China's recent moves in its western provences against Muslims), but that would hardly be a cause to rally the liberals around would it.

whataboutery as always

mulbot

PopePalpatine wrote: »

No, he's just a bully. He bullies journalists, he bullies the dissenters and he bullies LGBT people. Being a bully doesn't give you balls.

no,he tells it as it is,why should he let western influenced media dictate? He as a leader is playing the US and EU at their own games and thats why he has balls-If you really want to see a controlledmedia,people etc,look no further than the US

Hidalgo

Putin didn't get to where he is today through stupidity and overreaching.
For me he's a calculated political opportunist.

He knows he can push to an extent and the West will do little apart from bluster.
Putin isn't leader of some two bit broke state. He can offer altertanitives to nations that may have been reliant on US World Bank loans and the terms that went with it.

A belief that he wants to recreate the heady days of a Soviet Union Mk2 are wide of the mark imo. My gut feeling is he wants to create an EU type organisation for trade etc. Unsurprisingly he'd want to keep it on a tight reign.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

Brazils 2nd largest export Market is the US (2012), they also do significant business with 3 other EU members in its top ten export markets ahead of Russia. I think you can be guaranteed if they start to "fill the gap" that you would find them coming under pressure and endangering displeasing bigger customers than Russia.

I think I know what you mean and you're probably right.
A US sponsored coup d'etat could be organized and maybe a few thousand might die but what the heck business is business!

FRoZeNxPyRo

I'm bored so I think I'll delve into a little political ****-slinging.

To the people who resent Putin, its unfortunate that you should be so incorrect about current affairs in the east of the world, but I don't blame you.

Generally we here in out lovely little emerald isle are not exposed to much else than UK propaganda and russophobic rhetoric. The Cold War is over ,guys, but people like you have started another.

'Putin's Missile', 'Putin's Victims', and other flippant headlines stormed British tabloids and media when the Malaysian flight went down. Despite the absurdity of such remarks, the finger was immediately pointed at 'Putin and his cronies'. Yes, because the forces of Donetsk independent republic would want to invoke world hate.

I mean really, have you seen the US State Department's conferences? Let me sum it up:

'We have evidence of Russian involvement'
'May we see this evidence please?'
'WE have sources confirming this. We cant show them to you but we have them'
'Cheers Psaki, good woman'

Heard of the Odessa Massacre? I shouldn't expect you would have, since no Western media covered it, because it wouldn't look good for the new Kiev Junta. Not to mention slitting police chiefs throats, beatings, and shelling civilians.

Putin is a strong leader, which is why he poses such a threat to US hegemony.
Yes, Russia wants war. Have you seen how close they put their country's landmass to NATO missiles? Yes, Russia has started all the wars in the past decade. Yes, Russia has occupied many foreign countries since WW2.

And yet Obama struts around with his Nobel Peace Prize. Hah. The US would be in Syria if it wasn't for Putin.

If you actually open your mind a little, you can see how the world is fooled into hating Russia.

Israel committing genocide against Palestine. Please stop, Isreal, if you would be so kind.
As for you, Russia, well, how dare you have people in a neighboring country sacrifice there lives to be part of your federation. Here, have some sanctions.

You want evidence of what I said, I'll give it to you, in lovely photographic and video gore.

The truth is, I have so much of it I have no idea where to put it all or how to make this post sensical.

/rant semi-over.

comongethappy

FRoZeNxPyRo wrote: »

Heard of the Odessa Massacre? I shouldn't expect you would have, since no Western media covered it,

Except that it was extensively covered by western media, in tragic real-time & extensive aftermath.

All that angsty hyperbole must have dulled your memory!

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

Except that it was extensively covered by western media, in tragic real-time & extensive aftermath.

All that angsty hyperbole must have dulled your memory!

Anything else to say about that long post other than one of your trademark sarcastic quips?

FRoZeNxPyRo

Oh no, I do remember its coverage. The conclusion made by Western media was that the building spontaneously combusted and that people who managed to escape the building were shot or beaten to death by people with no affiliation to the Kiev government.

Not to mention, despite its uncanny resemblance to the methods used by the Ukrainian SS (one of the fastest SS units to be established after the Germans arrived), Russia's annexation of the Crimea (0 deaths) is quoted tenfold compared to Odessa (over 40 deaths, and a few more missing).

Yes, coverage you could say, and a little mindful oblivion to the perpetrators.

Nodin

FRoZeNxPyRo wrote: »

Oh no, I do remember its coverage. The conclusion made by Western media was that the building spontaneously combusted and that people who managed to escape the building were shot or beaten to death by people with no affiliation to the Kiev government.

Not to mention, despite its uncanny resemblance to the methods used by the Ukrainian SS (one of the fastest SS units to be established after the Germans arrived), Russia's annexation of the Crimea (0 deaths) is quoted tenfold compared to Odessa (over 40 deaths, and a few more missing).

Yes, coverage you could say, and a little mindful oblivion to the perpetrators.

Do please expand, if you would.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I think I know what you mean and you're probably right.
A US sponsored coup d'etat could be organized and maybe a few thousand might die but what the heck business is business!

LOL Coup D'etat what alternative planet are you living on. They will just stop buying Brazilian goods. No Coup D'etat needed. Christ the CT crap some people spout is unbelievable.

FRoZeNxPyRo

Nodin wrote: »

Do please expand, if you would.

It is a rather messy part of history, but there is the Huta Pieniacka massacre for one.

Nodin

FRoZeNxPyRo wrote: »

It is a rather messy part of history, but there is the Huta Pieniacka massacre for one.

Yes, way back in 1944. I'm more wondering what the 'Ukranian SS' have to do with whats happening now and this 'Odessa massacre'.

comongethappy

FRoZeNxPyRo wrote: »

Oh no, I do remember its coverage. The conclusion made by Western media was that the building spontaneously combusted and that people who managed to escape the building were shot or beaten to death by people with no affiliation to the Kiev government.

At some point, some how, you will make a post that is factually accurate.

At the time, the guardian reported:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire

Guardian wrote:

"At first we broke through the side, and then we came through the main entrance," said one pro-Ukrainian fighter, 20, who said he was a member of the extreme nationalist group Right Sector.
..........
Riot police arrived on the scene as hand-to-hand fighting was already under way inside, but did not enter the building and stood formed up in ranks outside.

They go one to mention the harsh treatment meated put to survivors of the disaster aswell as further Ukrainian-fascist involvement...

Guardian wrote:

Bloody and dazed pro-Russia protesters were eventually escorted from the building. Many were handed over to police, and loaded on to police vans. Some were assaulted by the crowd.

"The aim is to completely clear Odessa [of pro-Russians]," said Dmitry Rogovsky, another activist from Right Sector

We also know the Ukrainian seemed ambivalent regarding helping those in need....

Guardian wrote:

For two and a half hours the police were absent, said Olga Gold, a teacher watching the unrest. "The authorities have been absolutely indifferent," she said.

But all this is just straw-manning.

Its OK for you boys to have a grá for our KGB friend in Moscow.

But when you build a straw-man to deflect from & defend the Russian perma-president, at least get your facts right before making sweeping statements...... it just makes your adoration seem all the more desperate.

gandalf

FRoZeNxPyRo wrote: »

I'm bored so I think I'll delve into a little political ****-slinging.

To the people who resent Putin, its unfortunate that you should be so incorrect about current affairs in the east of the world, but I don't blame you.

Generally we here in out lovely little emerald isle are not exposed to much else than UK propaganda and russophobic rhetoric. The Cold War is over ,guys, but people like you have started another.

'Putin's Missile', 'Putin's Victims', and other flippant headlines stormed British tabloids and media when the Malaysian flight went down. Despite the absurdity of such remarks, the finger was immediately pointed at 'Putin and his cronies'. Yes, because the forces of Donetsk independent republic would want to invoke world hate.

I mean really, have you seen the US State Department's conferences? Let me sum it up:

'We have evidence of Russian involvement'
'May we see this evidence please?'
'WE have sources confirming this. We cant show them to you but we have them'
'Cheers Psaki, good woman'

Heard of the Odessa Massacre? I shouldn't expect you would have, since no Western media covered it, because it wouldn't look good for the new Kiev Junta. Not to mention slitting police chiefs throats, beatings, and shelling civilians.

Putin is a strong leader, which is why he poses such a threat to US hegemony.
Yes, Russia wants war. Have you seen how close they put their country's landmass to NATO missiles? Yes, Russia has started all the wars in the past decade. Yes, Russia has occupied many foreign countries since WW2.

And yet Obama struts around with his Nobel Peace Prize. Hah. The US would be in Syria if it wasn't for Putin.

If you actually open your mind a little, you can see how the world is fooled into hating Russia.

Israel committing genocide against Palestine. Please stop, Isreal, if you would be so kind.
As for you, Russia, well, how dare you have people in a neighboring country sacrifice there lives to be part of your federation. Here, have some sanctions.

You want evidence of what I said, I'll give it to you, in lovely photographic and video gore.

The truth is, I have so much of it I have no idea where to put it all or how to make this post sensical.

/rant semi-over.

Thanks for your long post. Of course you are deflecting from the actual topic and you are posting absolutely nothing to back up your opinions.

Videos of an aftermath are just that evidence that something has happened. It shows nothing of the actual context or in reality who carried out the crime. On this thread I have posted numerous articles from numerous and varied sources demonstrating a dangerous and oppressive regime that is threatening peace in Europe. Your response is as you have said yourself a rant.

This thread isn't about the US. It isn't about Israel or Palestine. It isn't directly about the Ukraine or its government it is about the actions of the Russia of Vladimir Putin. If you believe that the Putin regime is not a threat to European peace then please demonstrate that via discussion backed up with sources. If you are incapable of debating without trying to deflect it to another topic or country then you already know you can't show that they are not a threat to European security.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

LOL Coup d'etat what alternative planet are you living on. They will just stop buying Brazilian goods. No Coup d'etat needed. Christ the CT crap some people spout is unbelievable.

The usual jaded and predictable CT accusations, why didn't you just do
conspiracy theory forum

---

>
Apparently Henry Kissinger is still alive, he might come in useful!

sin_city

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

Look, if you are going to dismiss BBC links like that, well, we've got a problem here! The BBC is considered reputable, as is the Guardian and Times, whether you agree with that is irrelevant. There's a reason for that, they've built up that trust over decades and decades (that doesn't mean they haven't got things wrong, people make mistakes!).

I've no problem with you regarding them as biased, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you are going to constantly dismiss commonly regarded reputable sources on the politics forum, well we are starting to, not for the first time, go down sin_city's Conspiracy Theory route. That isn't what this forum is for, there's a CT forum dedicated to that on this very site, so it isn't that it isn't welcome on Boards, it's just that the politics forum is for people interested in discussing well, politics, not Conspiracy Theories that the BBC is out to get Putin and paint Russia in a bad light!

Any queries, pm me rather than derailing the thread and discussing it on here.

I am merely applying the same standard that people apply to me with RT.

I don't know if RT lies or just backs up what the Kremlin says but the BBC have recently been caught out as in the situation with the voiceover incident in Syria…I could go on but you could then dismiss as CT so not going there.

If people are going to dismiss my posts by mentioning RT then I hope you do the same for all news sources.

If you can going to base your confidence merely in how long a news entity has been broadcasting and not the content then you are truly lost.

gandalf

sin_city wrote: »

I am merely applying the same standard that people apply to me with RT.

But RT are discredited. How many "journalists" have resigned very publicly from them in the last couple of months conceding that the station is a clearing house for Kremlin propaganda.

I don't know if RT lies or just backs up what the Kremlin says but the BBC have recently been caught out as in the situation with the voiceover incident in Syria…I could go on but you could then dismiss as CT so not going there.

Source please?

If people are going to dismiss my posts by mentioning RT then I hope you do the same for all news sources.

RT is like Fox News on steriods. If someone quotes Fox News as a source I immediately dismiss them.

The BBC have a long history of good reporting and are fairly impartial.

If you can going to base your confidence merely in how long a news entity has been broadcasting and not the content then you are truly lost.

No I think you base it on the quality that they are producing and the quality and impartiality from RT is very very suspect. Again I cite the so called Journalists and Presenters who left the station recently as examples of this.

I suggest that if you have RT as your primary source you maybe get backup from another source and it would add a lot of weight to your argument if it was a non Russian source.

Of course we could continue the CT that the WHOLE of the western media world is incorrectly reporting things because of an "agenda" against the next "Nobel Peace Prize" winner Vladimir Putin :rolleyes:

sin_city

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The usual jaded and predictable CT accusations, why didn't you just do
conspiracy theory forum

---

>
Apparently Henry Kissinger is still alive, he might come in useful!

Why don't you use it to talk about how the democratically elected government was toppled in Ukraine by Western back Neo Nazis.

Was that a conspiracy you agree happened or do you want to forget about that respond with the tired CT responses.

Just because you have not fully investigated something…please have the class not to denigrate the responses of those who question things.

The frustration people that investigate and question things have is that we used to dismiss stuff as CT like you and we are trying to drag people to start questioning the motives for events that occur.

Putin was reported to have an 87% approval rating in Russia…From here we can see some people thing he is scum…Surely things aren’t as black and white as he’s good or he’s bad?

Busted Flat.

On Twitter
US intell. sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian gov forces were to blame.

Chickens come home to roost.


What will the families have to say about their kids being used as pawns in a sick situation like this. Their governments lied to the famlies.

Elmer Blooker

sin_city wrote: »

Why don't you use it to talk about how the democratically elected government was toppled in Ukraine by Western back Neo Nazis.

Was that a conspiracy you agree happened or do you want to forget about that respond with the tired CT responses.

Just because you have not fully investigated something…please have the class not to denigrate the responses of those who question things.

The frustration people that investigate and question things have is that we used to dismiss stuff as CT like you and we are trying to drag people to start questioning the motives for events that occur.

Putin was reported to have an 87% approval rating in Russia…From here we can see some people thing he is scum…Surely things aren’t as black and white as he’s good or he’s bad?

you obviously aren't familiar with my track record around here.

US intell. sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian gov forces were to blame.

if true then its interesting the way this comes out AFTER sanctions are enforced.

gandalf

sin_city wrote: »

Why don't you use it to talk about how the democratically elected government was toppled in Ukraine by Western back Neo Nazis.

Sources please.

Was that a conspiracy you agree happened or do you want to forget about that respond with the tired CT responses.

The CT comment was aimed at the "thousands of deaths in Brazil because of a Coup D'etat" by Elmer. Do you think that scenario is valid then?

Just because you have not fully investigated something…please have the class not to denigrate the responses of those who question things.

The frustration people that investigate and question things have is that we used to dismiss stuff as CT like you and we are trying to drag people to start questioning the motives for events that occur.

When people are clearly starting to post nonsense then don't be surprised if they are called out about it.

Putin was reported to have an 87% approval rating in Russia…From here we can see some people thing he is scum…Surely things aren’t as black and white as he’s good or he’s bad?

When the state controls all the major media outlets they can report what they want. I suppose we should be thankful they aren't using the North Korean model and they aren't reporting him with 100% rating yet.

I would also counter that it is very easy to get a high approval rating if there is no real opposition in a country and no counter balance to the official line.

If media control like that started to happen in this country then a lot of the Irish putinistas would be up in arms. Yet in Russia they seem to be ok with it?

Oh I don't think the man is scum I think he, his inner circle and the Extreme Nationalism that he is stirring up is a very clear danger to peace in Europe. So far I have seen nothing from you or others to counter this. I have seen attempts to deflect to other topics but no real attempt to counter the topic in hand here.

K-9

RT is basically the American version of Fox News. It will be treated with a healthy dose of skepticism. Look, links have been posted over and over, on different threads, about the restrictions and risks to their own safety that objective and critical journalists in Russia have to put up with. Thankfully journalists getting murdered like Veronica Guerin is a once in a generation occurrence in Ireland. The BBC aren't perfect, no media source is, but comparing it to RT is frankly laughable. BBC journalists are often critical of British Governments, the same cannot be said for RT, that is a very basic requirement of a media outlet and RT fails that test.

sin_city

gandalf wrote: »

But RT are discredited. How many "journalists" have resigned very publicly from them in the last couple of months conceding that the station is a clearing house for Kremlin propaganda.

2…Have you also investigated further…For example, Liz Wahl’s connections? Pre-planned and advertised the move on twitter before the resignation

Abby Martin disagreed with the RT coverage on air…She’s still working there…Ever watch The Young Turks? Cenk Ungar? He disagreed with NBC….what happened then?

Anyway, backs up what I thought…You are a read the headline know the story type of person

gandalf wrote: »

Source please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8FsDje-Luk



Please explain the reason for this? Mistake? ha

gandalf wrote: »

RT is like Fox News on steriods. If someone quotes Fox News as a source I immediately dismiss them.

The BBC have a long history of good reporting and are fairly impartial.

As I said I appreciate opinions but I am more interested in facts

gandalf wrote: »

No I think you base it on the quality that they are producing and the quality and impartiality from RT is very very suspect. Again I cite the so called Journalists and Presenters who left the station recently as examples of this.

I suggest that if you have RT as your primary source you maybe get backup from another source and it would add a lot of weight to your argument if it was a non Russian source.

Of course we could continue the CT that the WHOLE of the western media world is incorrectly reporting things because of an "agenda" against the next "Nobel Peace Prize" winner Vladimir Putin :rolleyes:

I have responded to you and you have responded prior by giving your opinion….I think that as soon as you mention CT you are in trouble….It’s a quick way to end a discussion on the real issue…A sort of character assassination.

I view all news sources I can get my hands on and try to search documentaries on the historical basis for the current conflict …then I try to make my own mind up….In my opinion anyone that believe 100% the news on RT is correct or 100% the news on the BBC is correct….those people are lemmings.

FRoZeNxPyRo

Busted Flat. wrote: »

On Twitter
US intell. sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian gov forces were to blame.

Chickens come home to roost.

But that's hush hush, right? We don't need the wider public acknowledging our mistake?

Its clear that us 'Putinbots' aren't going to win this, everything we cite will be dismissed.

I could start posting links to a few English sites, but those are probably too pro Kremlin, and then anything in Russian doesn't count either apparently, so my hands are tied?

I have to agree with sin city. The BBC has been around a long time, but that doesn't mean it isn't going for British interests.

How many journalist left RT did you say? You make it sound like it was some sort of mass exodus.

And yes, Putin's approval rates are rather high, but that's probably because Russians are all brainwashed zombies. Let's sanction them and leave them stuck in airports for being so evil.

And I'm afraid I don't count Der Spiegel and the Independent as unbiased sources, but then again that's the same as you would Itar Tass or Novosti.

Also, apart from the unwilling secession of Crimea from Ukraine, I haven't seen Putin acting on his so called bid for world domination. Source?

However, its a fact that US ships have been hanging about the black sea, NATO has been conducting more and more military muscle flex in countries such as Poland, and sorry, remind me, who's Patriot missiles are across the road from whom?
I don't know about you, but in order to judge something, there has to be something to compare with, so don't tell me my posts are irrelevant to the jovial thread of ' Vladamir Putin a clear and present danger to peace in Europe.' because I'm in the habit of using perspective.

gandalf

sin_city wrote: »

2…Have you also investigated further…For example, Liz Wahl’s connections? Pre-planned and advertised the move on twitter before the resignation

Abby Martin disagreed with the RT coverage on air…She’s still working there…Ever watch The Young Turks? Cenk Ungar? He disagreed with NBC….what happened then?

Anyway, backs up what I thought…You are a read the headline know the story type of person

I admit it I don't watch RT, I do discount what they report because they have shown to be tainted.

I do use a lot of other sources.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8FsDje-Luk



Please explain the reason for this? Mistake? ha

Any chance you can post up an article for this because I don't do the whole youtube gig. Also TV stations make mistakes on occasion. If you can demonstrate that the BBC are continually and deliberately reporting erroneous information as facts then you have a case. If you are posting up the odd anomaly then you need to go back to the drawing board.

As I said I appreciate opinions but I am more interested in facts

So is everyone else hence the stance that RT is a very tainted source and can not be relied upon to report facts.

I have responded to you and you have responded prior by giving your opinion….I think that as soon as you mention CT you are in trouble….It’s a quick way to end a discussion on the real issue…A sort of character assassination.

I view all news sources I can get my hands on and try to search documentaries on the historical basis for the current conflict …then I try to make my own mind up….In my opinion anyone that believe 100% the news on RT is correct or 100% the news on the BBC is correct….those people are lemmings.

As I have said earlier I use a lot of varied sources and use them normally to back each other up. I will go on the record and say that I do believe that the BBC do make a geniue effort to report the news as they find it and succeed and I do believe that RT are a tainted organisation and a mouthpiece for the Putin regime.

Now can we get back to the topic at hand and can you counter the core of this discussion that Putin is a danger to European Peace.

Manach

carpejugulum wrote: »

whataboutery as always

Placing things in context for the wiki-experts for those with their heads stuck in the sand, as always.