Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Wild_Dogger

Judgement Day wrote: »

Apart from the scarcity of Israeli goods in our shops anyway, I don't favour this type of action - too reminiscent of what went on in Nazi Germany. What's needed, not just in this situation but in the Russia/Ukraine, North Korea etc. is for the leading figures (Benjamin Netanyahu, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, Putin, Kim Jong-un etc.) to be informed that they will be held personally responsible for all actions undertaken by their forces.

Ah but your forgetting that any action by EU will be countered by the US - who apply a veto over any action put into motion

Israel will not be accountable to anyone Im afraid !

Johro

user2011 wrote: »

The Israeli op has taken 44% of the Gaza strip by way of "a buffer zone" :rolleyes:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-takes-away-44-of-gaza-land-herds-gazans-into-remaining-area/5393825

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/28/as-israel-enforces-its-buffer-zone-gaza-shrinks-by-40-per-cent.html



More people being squeezed into an even smaller bit of land while it continues to get destroyed.

Not only that, they are doing what they did in their last war on Gaza, which is to systematically destroy its infrastructure. They destroyed its water supplies, drove tanks through crop fields, now they've destroyed the power plant. This has f#ck all to do with tunnels and rockets and Hamas 'terrorists', it's about making life in the Gaza Strip unsustainable. The Palestinians will spend the next five or six years or so rebuilding, they'll have to smuggle materials in through their tunnels, it will be a long and arduous process, then get ready for another round of devastation from Israeli missiles.

My name is URL

Israeli Official To Obama: ‘Leave Us Alone’

A top Israeli official wants President Barack Obama to stop meddling with the Jewish state during its conflict with Hamas in Gaza.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/07/29/israeli-official-to-obama-leave-us-alone/

You couldn't make it up really

If only the US would leave Israel alone and stop meddling in its affairs... it'd be a far more even conflict then

Sonics2k

Geomy wrote: »

What are they then ?

The result of 40 years of invasion by another state.

Any group of people which comes under constant attack resulting in a massive loss of life, land and seeing innocent people die will always result in them turning to extremes to see an enemy defeated.

I do not support Hamas at all, but I also cannot blame many of their now followers for joining them in a fight against Israel.

In all honesty, if the same were happening here in Ireland, you can damn well bet I'd fight back too. I think most people would.

Kylo Ren

Photo of Gaza from today.

The Th!ng

In the past The IDF have purposely targeted children in Gaza. Listen to what Miko Peled, author of 'The General's Son' has to say at about the 15-16 minute mark in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ZfnpN4Dfc

P_1

WellThen? wrote: »

I can't believe this is what the media in the States is delivering to the public. Even the banner "Sympathy for the terrorists"

It's difficult to watch, the sheer stupidity/ignorance and lack of respect from Hannity is unbelievable. Fox news is a piece of sh*t.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

That's a ridiculous piece of 'journalism'. Basically it's "answer the question the way I want you to answer it or I'll yell over you and cut you off".

My name is URL

Manic Moran wrote: »

Try watching a video which hasn't been edited. Look at both the smoke from the first impact, and the waving cables/rags on the antenna at the bottom left at about 20/21 seconds. You can see where the video splice was

I'm willing to believe it may have been edited or have spin attached to it.. like I am for every single video that emerges from either 'side'. Both are known for it so it'd be foolish not to have some degree of skepticism.

It has however been widely reported already that the 3-5 minute warning period hasn't been observed.

Although I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of roof-knocking (How do you know it's your roof that got knocked?), the munition does cost a few thousands of dollars. There is no percentage in the Israelis dropping it, and then not waiting before dropping the live bomb.

That's where the argument for using it should begin and end really. It's literally a smokescreen for the indiscriminate murder and displacement of civilians.

Karl Stein

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

I don't like that video.

I don't like it either - it's from a fairly right-wing Zionist organisation and so will reflect its stance/values.

It is however an insight into how Israeli strategists and planners consider the West Bank/Palestinians.

DyldeBrill

Anyone see Jon Snow's interview today with Michael Oren? Just couldn't give a clear concrete answer to why so many civilians were being killed. He had nothing but roundabout explanations. Would have liked to have seen Jon Snow press him a bit more.

Interview is below for anyone who wants to see

http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-gaza-genocidal-human-shields-israel-oren-ambassador

deco nate

Killing kids, on any side is wrong. But hey, we know its
Only one side that is aiming to
Do this.
Why else would they hit a hospital? To kill the already wounded?? Why?

P_1

LadyMayBelle wrote: »

I work in the same building as a synagogue and I gotta say I'm struggling hugely: being the only non jewish person in the village as such, and working with Israelis. I've avoided looking at the Pray for Israel posters that have shot up, and today read the Jewish News which advises to "turn on Fox, Sky and CNN" as the BBC is "bias".

I hate to use the crude comparison but there really is something quite Goebels-esque about how it seems to be being covered in Israel. We have people being discouraged from consuming certain not 'on message' media and Israelis who are opposed to what is being done in their name being accused of not being 'true Israelis' and sometimes even attacked.

Yes Israel has the right to defend itself from attack but (and this is liable to be a contender for understatement of the year) they are completely going about it the wrong way.

Tuisceanch

In my opinion there is no real confusion about the objectives of Israel regarding the valuable territory which the seek in the west bank and that is how they perceive they will guarantee their future. This is not a conflict. It is colonialism and always has being. I am heartened by much of what I have read here condemning the unforgivable waste of life and I include the lifes of the young Israeli conscripts as well. Israel is not however the only country which is poorly led by what can only be described as vicious,monstrous psychopaths and there is no point believing that any positive action will come from those in power in any neck of the wood. Remaining an empathic and compassionate human being is the best most of us can do and although it does not seem much it is better than being an unpaid propaganda tool for the authors of this slaughter.

The Th!ng

One little girl even died of a heart attack brought on by the bombing in her neighbourhood. May she rest in peace.

http://humanizepalestine.com/2014/07/27/in-memory-hind-shadi-abu-harbied/

What is happening to the population of Gaza is a crime aginst hunmanity.

Tail Docker

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm willing to believe it may have been edited or have spin attached to it.. like I am for every single video that emerges from either 'side'. Both are known for it so it'd be foolish not to have some degree of skepticism.

It has however been widely reported already that the 3-5 minute warning period hasn't been observed.



That's where the argument for using it should begin and end really. It's literally a smokescreen for the indiscriminate murder and displacement of civilians.

"Hi. We're going to blow up your home! But chill dude, you have 3 to 5 minutes to get out! This starts from when we drop a small bomb onto your roof. Which makes it a good thing. Good, like cool water. Mmm, water..."


If a bomb lands on my roof, it'll take me a good ten minutes just to clean the crap off my legs, let alone be aware enough to get out.

Geomy

Nodin wrote: »

A Palestinian sunni muslim religious group set up in the 1980's, primarily nationalistic.

I am confused with the different muslim groups in the middle east, are the shia Muslims different ?

Vandango

Tail Docker wrote: »

"Hi. We're going to blow up your home! But chill dude, you have 3 to 5 minutes to get out!

Not even that, there's footage on LiveLeak of a roof tap on a 5 story building. 25 seconds later the building is reduced to dust. 25 bloody seconds, how in f***s name can you get out of a 5 story building in 25 seconds.

h2005

Vandango wrote: »

Not even that, there's footage on LiveLeak of a roof tap on a 5 story building. 25 seconds later the building is reduced to dust. 25 bloody seconds, how in f***s name can you get out of a 5 story building in 25 seconds.

That video was most likely edited.

A Greedy Algorithm

h2005 wrote: »

That video was most likely edited.

I remember seeing said video on the news - maybe Sky or the BBC news service i cannot remember exactly, it didn't look edited.

YouTube has video showing this 'Roof Knocking' technique with the duration of the knock and the actual missile be less than one minute.



Edit: i could have also seen it online i cannot remember.

h2005

A Greedy Algorithm wrote: »

I remember seeing said video on the news - maybe Sky or the BBC news service i cannot remember exactly, it didn't look edited.

YouTube has video showing this 'Roof Knocking' technique with the duration of the knock and the actual missile be less than one minute.



Edit: i could have also seen it online i cannot remember.

Take another look at the vid and watch for the smoke at the top of the building at about the 20 second mark

Son Of A Vidic

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Anyone see Jon Snow's interview today with Michael Oren? Just couldn't give a clear concrete answer to why so many civilians were being killed. He had nothing but roundabout explanations. Would have liked to have seen Jon Snow press him a bit more.

Interview is below for anyone who wants to see

http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-gaza-genocidal-human-shields-israel-oren-ambassador

I admire Jon Snow's restraint, he witnessed the horrors on the ground in Gaza and then he had to entertain that Oren clown. They'll spin, twist, wriggle and spew their pathetic nonsense. But you just can't rationalise with blind hatred.

Davarus Walrus

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Again, I'm pleading relative ignorance with all this stuff, despite having a 'back of the head' sympathy for the Israeli side. Why are Israel so against having Hamas talk and discuss things with the leadership in the West Bank? Is there oil in Gaza, or access to a deep water port? Why bomb the fúck out of Gaza while knowing world pr is against them? :(

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Thanks. But again, I'm wondering why Israel just didn't invade Gaza before that. And why they invested in this Iron Dome system if they just wanted to take over the region? I've tried to make sense of complex geopolitics from the Soviet Union through Yugoslavia. But this Israel invading Gaza thing has me mightily confused.

They don't really care about "world PR" because most of their exports are for things that aren't too easy to boycott and they'll always have America on their side. Israel is seeking to expand into the Palestinian territories and as I said in the other thread there's been some movement in the territories to say "Hey, why not just take us over and give us a vote?". Israel can't do that because it wouldn't be long until Jews were a minority of voters in a country that size.
Instead they're doing it bit-by-bit, doing it in a way that is as bad as they can get away with with America. Look at Al-Jazeera, then European news coverage then American news coverage if you want a laugh at the difference in how things are being reported. While Obama and Netanyahu don't like each other to say the least, Hamas have been called terrorists and Israel has always been America's friend so Obama is unlikely to publicly say anything.

The timing of what's happening now is not by chance, Hamas and Fatah recently agreed on some new co-operation, can't be having that.

Capt'n Midnight

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Even more important, will the hospitals run out of generator electricity?

At various times generators were on list of prohibited imports into Gaza.

Israel controls most of the imports into the Gaza Strip

Economics 101 , when your imports cost more than you make on your very limited exports you'll run out of money very soon. Foreign cash is the only thing that keeps the Gaza strip alive.

Given the way things are going by 2020 it won't be able to support everyone living there and that's the optimistic view. The a more pessimistic view is 2017 when fresh water runs out.

Hamas was dependent on funds from abroad. They dried up. Since there was 18 months of no rocket attacks Israel could simply have waited them out, it would have been hard for Hamas to maintain public support when no one's getting paid. Perhaps Fatah could have regained influence ?


Given the difficulty of travel between Gaza and the West Bank and the disparity in GDP it's no wonder they don't always follow the same political path.

DyldeBrill

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Anyone see Jon Snow's interview today with Michael Oren? Just couldn't give a clear concrete answer to why so many civilians were being killed. He had nothing but roundabout explanations. Would have liked to have seen Jon Snow press him a bit more.

Interview is below for anyone who wants to see

http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-gaza-genocidal-human-shields-israel-oren-ambassador

"We're pained also by the civilian life on the Palestinian side."

Hmmmmm.

P_1

Geomy wrote: »

I am confused with the different muslim groups in the middle east, are the shia Muslims different ?

To give a comparative example, you have Catholic and Protestant branches of Christianity in a similar manner to having Shia and Sunni branches of Islam.

Capt'n Midnight

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

What should the Israeli's do? How do they defend their country? What's objective defense and what is war?

Why are the Israeli's doing this? If they wanted to wipe Gaza out they could have carried it out in a couple of days.

Oh boy

Until yesterday Iron Dome meant that there was only one Jewish civilian killed in Israel and he was taking food to soldiers at one of the four boarder crossings. So pretty effective defence.

For about 18 months before that there were no missile attacks so didn't even need that effective defence.

Two very different questions
Should an Israel exist and have a right to self defence ?

and

Should "Israel" include all the land taken from the Palestinians illegally or by duress and should that right to self defence include war crimes as defined by the (Fourth) Geneva Convention to which Israel is a signatory and ratified on 06.07.1951

I think the vast majority on this thread would answer Yes and No respectively.


The Fourth Convention is very clear about things like collective punishment, proportionate response , targeting of hospitals, allowing civilians leave dangerous areas, ethnic cleansing


As for "Wiping out "

The IRA has launched assassination attempts on the UK Government , they killed a government minister in the Brighton Bombing and could have killed most of the cabinet if it hadn't been such a strong building. They exploded a mortar in the garden of No. 10 Downing Street. Way more provocation than Israel has had.


The population of Gaza is almost the same as Northern Ireland except they are squashed into something smaller than the borough of Ards




Are somehow suggesting that Israel deserves some credit for not wiping out 1.8 million people when it's defences had protected it's Jewish civilians in the context where the UK did not attack civilians in response to repeated credible assassination attempts of their government ?

Do you value the lives of others so little ?

Karl Stein

'Knock on the roof' makes it sound rather polite.. as if there was a friendly man calling to say: 'excuse me, but you'll have to get out of the way for a minute - it's for your own safety'.

No doubt it was thought up by some PR slime to sell terrorism.

'Death knock' would be more descriptive.

Few weeks ago one of the knocks killed 3 kids. But hey, what can be done to prevent it?

Karl Stein

Deleted User wrote: »

But hey, what can be done to prevent it?

Surely if the Palestinians sat on their roofs when the 'death knock' came the people guiding the bombs would know that blowing them to pieces would be seen as mass murder of people engaged in a noble act of resistance?

I wouldn't be surprised if it has already happened.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

But gaza barely functions as is. Every few years theres some excuse and they go in and wreck the place - the zoos been taken out a few times, chicken hatcheries etc. It's to get the croppys to lie down.

2,600 rockets is 'some excuse' now? Nevermind the tunnels into Israel and Hamas's Charter that calls on Muslims to kill Jews and end the state of Israel.
The people who run Gaza are hardly Mrs Daisy now in fairness.