Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

user2011

35cent wrote: »

Like I said in the other thread, I don't see the point of these offensives personally. I know they are responding to rocket attacks but they don't seem effective despite all the damage and death caused.

Why would they show their true colours to the world when they can do it bit by bit and have their friends on UNSC block anything that can actually stop this from happening..

If Israel was to decide to go down the road of just flattening Gaza with a bomb would the US still be able to go UNSC and block a resolution and think they would still have standing in the world?

Spring Onion

AnonoBoy wrote: »

*Deep Breath*


I think it's bad what's happening.




Ok. I'm out.

How dare you!!!?

Judgement Day

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

True , True !

But I'm sure the management heard about it and don't want a repeat of it.

If enough of this happened then maybe the staff wouldn't have to stock their shelves with Israeli produce.

Saying that, I would prefer to write to managment requesting a list of Israeli goods, noting that you wish to continue shopping with the firm but would not wish to buy Israeli produce.

Apart from the scarcity of Israeli goods in our shops anyway, I don't favour this type of action - too reminiscent of what went on in Nazi Germany. What's needed, not just in this situation but in the Russia/Ukraine, North Korea etc. is for the leading figures (Benjamin Netanyahu, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, Putin, Kim Jong-un etc.) to be informed that they will be held personally responsible for all actions undertaken by their forces.

Spring Onion

Energy and Money

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12971-the-truth-about-israels-new-war-on-gaza--the-energy-rush

Lets go back to 2000 when British Gas (BG) discovered that Gaza sat on an estimated $4 billion worth of natural gas. Needless to say that this discovery came as a shock to Israel, as suddenly Gaza, this little slither of land which Palestinians have been discarded upon, this purgatory which Zionists imagined to crush Palestinians' hopes and dreams, became a key geo-strategic priority. Come hail and high waters, Israel would have to gain access to those resources.

Since BG made its first estimation, it was established that Gaza's gas reserves are far greater than first anticipated. According to Michel Chossudovsky, a Canadian economist and prominent analyst, Gaza is basking in as much wealth as the State of Kuwait. Rather than live in abject poverty, Gaza should be a vibrant business hub, a brilliant economic success. Instead, it has been withering away under Israel's blockade, forced to scrap and beg for its daily bread, its people reduced to servitude.

hju6

S.O wrote: »

Was doing a small bit of shopping in a local tesco store this past saturday when a crowd of protesters entered the store shouting at the staff regarding Israeli goods, having a peaceful protest march about an issue is one thing, but I dont agree with shouting at staff in work over something the staff have nothing to do with, at the end of the day the staff only stack the shelves and sell the products they don't decide where the the products are imported from, the protesters didn,t do themselves any favours whatsoever with the way they carried on, from talking to people in private conversations peoples opinions are down on them. if you want to try persuade people not to buy and boycott Israeli products or not handle Israeli goods in their place of work shouting and roaring at people in a supermarket store isn,t the way to persuade anyone.

TESCO’S Irish stores no longer sell fruits grown in illegal Israeli settlements — and they plan to end the practice in the UK too.

http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/news/5784923/Tesco-Weve-axed-fruit-from-Israel.html?teaser=true

Son Of A Vidic

Last Saturday night a young Palestinian woman was killed in an air strike on her Gaza home. As her family frantically pulled her from the rubble, they knew she was dead and they also assumed her unborn baby was dead. By the time she arrived at the ER and judging by the length of time that had passed. Conventional medical wisdom suggested her baby was indeed dead and could not have survived. For whatever reason, the medics performed a caesarean section and delivered a healthy baby girl. The surviving family members called her after her dead mother and a wee girl entered this world who will never know her mother. Born into a hell on this earth.

As a medical person myself, the report and the footage brought a tear to the eye. In the past my colleagues and I have tried desperately to resuscitate people. Even when we've known deep down we've lost them. So I can really understand the desperate hope those Nurses & Doctors had, when they performed that C-section. Especially knowing full well it was very likely the baby had died. So for me that kid is a miracle, a symbol of hope for the future. Don't ask my why I think that but I do.

Right now, this crazy Zionist government and their fanaticism might be inflicting terrible death and destruction on the Palestinians, but they are losing their own 'war'. Yes in two or three years the Israeli's will likely create another pretext for a 'war'. But eventually, it will only be a matter of time before this state grows up, matures and finally realises that negotiation and not military oppression resolves conflicts. And when they come to that realisation and take those steps, they'll have guaranteed their own future and security like never before.

Davarus Walrus

Karl Stein wrote: »

Israel already rules Gaza. Gaza is an enormous internment camp - only for tunnels supplying it with its needs it would be immeasurably more impoverished.

The endgame is uncontested control of 'greater Israel' i.e. the territory north of Egypt, west of the Jordan and south of Lebanon/Syria. It just so happens that there are a several million Palestinians within those borders that need to be 'managed'.

Thanks. So why don't the Israeli's just take over these territories? They have the military prowess to do so if they wanted. If they wanted all this land then why don't they get it?

hju6

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Thanks. So why don't the Israeli's just take over these territories? They have the military prowess to do so if they wanted. If they wanted all this land then why don't they get it?

They are

comongethappy

hju6 wrote: »

They are

Are there settlements planned for Gaza?

Spring Onion

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Thanks. So why don't the Israeli's just take over these territories? They have the military prowess to do so if they wanted. If they wanted all this land then why don't they get it?

http://images.alarabiya.net/israel-palestine_map_19225_2469.jpg.

hju6

comongethappy wrote: »

Are there settlements planned for Gaza?

Probally lots of illegal ones

Karl Stein

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

So why don't the Israeli's just take over these territories?

They have. The West Bank is being systematically colonised and carved up. The problem is what to do with the Palestinians - particularly those left in the West Bank. The West Bank is strategically important to the Israelis because it's the 'high ground'. The problem with this strategically important territory is that there are a few million Palestinians living there.

Check this video out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0

Davarus Walrus

hju6 wrote: »

They are

Thanks. But again, I'm wondering why Israel just didn't invade Gaza before that. And why they invested in this Iron Dome system if they just wanted to take over the region? I've tried to make sense of complex geopolitics from the Soviet Union through Yugoslavia. But this Israel invading Gaza thing has me mightily confused.

DeadHand

Of all the conflicts going on in the world I find this the saddest for the simple reason that I see no obvious end in sight. Neither nation is going to jump into the sea and co-existence appears impossible, at least while the present authorities are at the helm on both sides.

Just as desperation and anger pushed the Palestinians into the hands of the openly exterminationistic Hamas, fear and insecurity pushed the Israeli people into electing a hawkish, militaristic government. The result is carnage.

So much is admirable about Israel. But she does herself no favours by behaving like a mad cow. I don't agree with her ultra aggression nor would I attempt to justify it but I think I understand some of the reasons for it.

Israel suffers a very real existential threat on several fronts in an increasingly unstable, violent region where a fundamentalist, murderous, jihadist version of Islam is making gains at a terrifying speed. There is a believe among the current ruling elite in Israel that if they do not retaliate ferociously to any and all provocation and defend themselves viciously that will be the first nail in the coffin of their nation. The Jews of Europe, for the most part, walked quietly and submissively to their deaths during the Holocaust. This instills a pitiless determination in what are for a large part their descendants not to be seen as weak.

Again, these are not excuses or attempts to justify what is a clear and tragic over reaction but just some points to consider.

Ironically, by responding with such unnecessarily brutal force they are playing into their enemies hands by forcing the Gazan people to rally around Hamas, for lack of an alternative, as well as isolating themselves globally in a diplomatic sense.

Judgement Day

comongethappy wrote: »

Are there settlements planned for Gaza?

They been down that road before so no. This is an ill thought out, punitive attack to try and break Hamas in the Gaza Strip. No matter what the Israeli leadership say now about a long war, they will pull back sooner rather than later as the increasing death toll in their armed forces causes political unrest at home.

comongethappy

hju6 wrote: »

Probally lots of illegal ones

Every settlement is illegal if someone else owns the land.

comongethappy

Judgement Day wrote: »

They been down that road before so no. This is an ill thought out, punitive attack to try and break Hamas in the Gaza Strip. No matter what the Israeli leadership say now about a long war, they will pull back sooner rather than later as the increasing death toll in their armed forces causes political unrest at home.

Indeed, they won't colonize.
Occupation will rack up their casualties.
Hamas have inflicted significant casualties on the IDF when they counter attack.

Their only choice is withdrawal..... Wait 4 years, blow it all up again.

Davarus Walrus

Karl Stein wrote: »

They have. The West Bank is being systematically colonised and carved up. The problem is what to do with the Palestinians - particularly those left in the West Bank. The West Bank is strategically important to the Israelis because it's the 'high ground'. The problem with this strategically important territory is that there are a few million Palestinians living there.

Check this video out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0

I don't like that video. It's a very lazy argument. It's the type of thing produced by a spotty Israeli teenager after drinking too much beer. Ireland - of all places - should know the dangers of allowing nationalism to muddy the waters of thinking.

WellThen?

I can't believe this is what the media in the States is delivering to the public. Even the banner "Sympathy for the terrorists"

It's difficult to watch, the sheer stupidity/ignorance and lack of respect from Hannity is unbelievable. Fox news is a piece of sh*t.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1m5xrlBHRs

Nodin

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Do the leadership in Gaza and the West Bank not communicate? Again, I'm fairly uneducated when it comes to all this stuff, but I'd presume they both developed a mutual disliked of the Israeli's??

Of course, but they have differing policies than Fatah, who are secular and far more corrupt. Think of the way the Apartheid Government played "coloured" against black African, Zulu vs the rest of the population.

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

And again, I'm genuinely not trying to be antagonistic; but what 'win' do Israel get from attacking Gaza at the moment? It's not PR; sympathy for the Jewish cause, or a desire to invest in Israeli companies. Why do Israel send their young lads to fight?

I've explained this earlier.

Nodin

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

I don't like that video. It's a very lazy argument. It's the type of thing produced by a spotty Israeli teenager after drinking too much beer. Ireland - of all places - should know the dangers of allowing nationalism to muddy the waters of thinking.

They can do more or less what they want until theres a sea change in US policy, that's the grim truth. The bright side is that such things have happened before (with Apartheid South Africa).

Geomy

I don't agree with the Israel response.
I think it's too shock and awe and too many children and civilians are killed and maimed, but I think if any of these jihadist's moments get out of control Israel have the power to push them back.

These jihadist's are no friends of the West....

CYHSN

My name is URL wrote: »

Israel claim that they give 3-5 minutes 'warning' (knock-on-the-roof) for people to vacate their homes before shelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs5jNoCeOBA

3-5 minutes? :rolleyes:

Murderous scumbags

Saw this on liveleak yesterday and on there too the video was edited to make it seem that way, go to the 23 second mark and look at the moving wire at the bottom of the screen People on liveleak pointed that out.

Nodin

Geomy wrote: »

I don't agree with the Israel response.
I think it's too shock and awe and too many children and civilians are killed and maimed, but I think if any of these jihadist's moments get out of control Israel have the power to push them back.

These jihadist's are no friends of the West....

Hamas are not some al-Qaeda offshoot.

Manic Moran

My name is URL wrote: »

Israel claim that they give 3-5 minutes 'warning' (knock-on-the-roof) for people to vacate their homes before shelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs5jNoCeOBA

3-5 minutes? :rolleyes:

Murderous scumbags

Try watching a video which hasn't been edited. Look at both the smoke from the first impact, and the waving cables/rags on the antenna at the bottom left at about 20/21 seconds. You can see where the video splice was.

Although I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of roof-knocking (How do you know it's your roof that got knocked?), the munition does cost a few thousands of dollars. There is no percentage in the Israelis dropping it, and then not waiting before dropping the live bomb.

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Occupation 101 explains the history or the conflict very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr9CIGeePXU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I am a little reluctant to hope for an unbiased assessment from a video entitled "Occupation 101"

Nodin

Manic Moran wrote: »

I am a little reluctant to hope for an unbiased assessment from a video entitled "Occupation 101"

Don't tell me you're denying there's an occupation now.....

LadyMayBelle

I work in the same building as a synagogue and I gotta say I'm struggling hugely: being the only non jewish person in the village as such, and working with Israelis. I've avoided looking at the Pray for Israel posters that have shot up, and today read the Jewish News which advises to "turn on Fox, Sky and CNN" as the BBC is "bias".

Geomy

Nodin wrote: »

Hamas are not some al-Qaeda offshoot.

What are they then ?

Nodin

Geomy wrote: »

What are they then ?

A Palestinian sunni muslim religious group set up in the 1980's, primarily nationalistic.

comongethappy

The Daily Show tried to get into it.... Gave up.

Jordan Klepper... fantastic correspondent.

http://youtu.be/zmCKZYKsiGM