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How should Israel defend itself?

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    #32
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nodin wrote: »
    Why? That's fantasy.

    That's the OPs question though..... Like it or not.

    If the pro-Hamas side decry the effectiveness & competency of the IDF vs the relative weakness of Hamas, what do you deem appropriate for Israel to execute militarily in its nations defence?


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    #33
    The_Captain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    Remove settlers from Gaza and the West Bank, end the illegal blockade, allow displaced Palestinians the right to return to their own country, pull the IDF out.

    Engage with Fatah and the PLO to stop cross-border terrorism

    If dealing with Hamas terrorists, attack and kill them to your hearts content, just don't kill civilians or raze hospitals to try to get to them


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    #34
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    That's the OPs question though..... Like it or not.

    He never mentioned "Imagine a hypothesis where Israel never left its 1967 borders" or anything like it.


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    #35
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nodin wrote: »
    He never mentioned "Imagine a hypothesis where Israel never left its 1967 borders" or anything like it.

    Either way..... You must have some ideas as to how Israel can defend itself militarily?

    There are different ways to go about defence.... The question remains unanswered by the pro-Hamas posters....


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    #36
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Either way..... You must have some ideas as to how Israel can defend itself militarily?

    There are different ways to go about defence.... The question remains unanswered by the pro-Hamas posters....
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91360451&postcount=4

    What "pro-hamas" posters?


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    #37
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    comongethappy wrote: »
    That's not the question though.

    Imagine a hypothesis where Israel never left its 1967 borders.

    Palestinian terrorists attack with a 500+ rocket barrage.

    What level of defence do those supporting Hamas deem acceptable?

    Hamas doesn't exist in that scenario, seeing as they came into existence due to the Israeli occupation in the 1980's.........

    Sorry, trying to remove the occupation, even in a hypothetical, to justify the premise that Israel is somehow engaged in defense is just silly. Hamas doesn't exist without the occupation. The PLO doesn't exist either without the occupation btw. The Palestinians groups that currently exist, exist due to the current occupation.

    Also, again the premise that Israel is engaged in self defense is a faulty one. Israel is the aggressor, and not the people there occupying.


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    #38
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nodin wrote: »
    What "pro-hamas" posters?

    Those who support Hamas's attacks on Israel.
    (You have posted in support of that in the past).

    Its fine to take that position...
    But its no harm discussing what Israel can do militarily to the satisfaction of the supporters of Hamas.


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    #39
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Those who support Hamas's attacks on Israel.
    (You have posted in support of that in the past).

    ...........

    I have? Where?


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    #40
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    wes wrote: »
    Hamas doesn't exist in that scenario, seeing as they came into existence due to the Israeli occupation in the 1980's.........

    Sorry, trying to remove the occupation, even in a hypothetical, to justify the premise that Israel is somehow engaged in defense is just silly. Hamas doesn't exist without the occupation. The PLO doesn't exist either without the occupation btw. The Palestinians groups that currently exist, exist due to the current occupation.

    Also, again the premise that Israel is engaged in self defense is a faulty one. Israel is the aggressor, and not the people there occupying.


    So there is no level of military engagement you deem satisfactory?


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    #41
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    The_Captain wrote: »

    If dealing with Hamas terrorists, attack and kill them to your hearts content, just don't kill civilians or raze hospitals to try to get to them

    It's not really as simple as that, if Israel never bomb a school or a hospital, then where do you think Hamas will put the rocket launchers?


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    #42
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    comongethappy wrote: »
    So there is no level of military engagement you deem satisfactory?

    Netanyahu, shouldn't have kicked off the most recent violence, that would have been the best defense for Israel. As it stands its Israel who is the aggressor, and not Hamas, as deplorable as Hamas maybe, there not at fault in this instance.


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    #43
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    The way I see it Israel can opt for either a long term or a short term defence strategy.

    The long term strategy involves a bit of a loss of face for Israel to put it mildly but ultimately it will end up with a better standard of life for both the 'normal' Israeli and the 'normal' Palestinian. The Israelis won't have to fear suicide bomber or rocket attacks and the Palestinians can have a regular life without fearing the IDF or Hamas.

    The short term strategy makes arms manufacturers and the people at the top of the Israeli and Hamas pyramids happy but not many others.


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    #44
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nodin wrote: »
    I have? Where?
    Nodin wrote: »
    Any resistance to such is entirely justified
    (Quoting this post as it was in the context of Palestinian military action).


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    #45
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    comongethappy wrote: »
    (Quoting this post as it was in the context of Palestinian military action).

    An occupied people are legally allowed to resist an occupation, that goes for any occupied people. Resistance however, doesn't cover indiscriminate attacks on civilians, and I find it strange that you automatically conflate the 2.


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    #46
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    wes wrote: »
    Netanyahu, shouldn't have kicked off the most recent violence, that would have been the best defense for Israel. As it stands its Israel who is the aggressor, and not Hamas, as deplorable as Hamas maybe, there not at fault in this instance.

    I actually agree with you..... But you are still missing the point....

    What military engagement is acceptable?

    I'll get the ball rolling with an opinion (limited as it is)....

    - Naval strikes:..... No way.
    Naval guns are pretty good, but the ammo is unguided & lobbed rather crudely at its target.
    They need line of sight.
    Naval guided missiles are too big & cause too much damage.

    Air.....
    Fast jets are essential, anything slower is shot down

    The munitions are critical.

    Israel should never ever use incendiary or cluster munitions.
    As well as that, never ever use claymore like munitions.

    Standard missiles seem too powerful for the job & cause too much damage.

    Better they use smaller warheads or kinetic energy missiles to destroy targets.

    .... Discuss.


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    #47
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    (Quoting this post as it was in the context of Palestinian military action).


    Resistance to occupation is entirely justified. Rather a different thing to 'supporting hamas'.


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    #48
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nodin wrote: »
    Resistance to occupation is entirely justified. Rather a different thing to 'supporting hamas'.

    I'm unsure what parts of Gaza are under occupation?
    Is there Israeli settlements there?


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    #49
    The_Captain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    It's not really as simple as that, if Israel never bomb a school or a hospital, then where do you think Hamas will put the rocket launchers?

    They'll put them in hospitals and schools as they are already.

    The fact that there's rocket launchers in a hospital doesn't make it okay to bomb a hospital and kill everyone inside it


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    #50
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    The_Captain wrote: »
    They'll put them in hospitals and schools as they are already.

    The fact that there's rocket launchers in a hospital doesn't make it okay to bomb a hospital and kill everyone inside it

    Which is exactly the point.

    Can a truck with rocket launchers on the back just park at a school & operate with impunity?
    No.... of course not.

    The question is, how does the IDF engage it without excessive destruction?


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    #51
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    The_Captain wrote: »
    They'll put them in hospitals and schools as they are already.

    The fact that there's rocket launchers in a hospital doesn't make it okay to bomb a hospital and kill everyone inside it

    I disagree. I think if a building is used as a launch pad to attack another country, it should be expected that the building will be flattened in retaliation. if a building has rocket launcher on the roof it is a military target.
    Obviously nobody wants to see a hospital bombed, but war is war, it's naive to expect that anything should be off limits.


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    #52
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    comongethappy wrote: »
    I'm unsure what parts of Gaza are under occupation?
    Is there Israeli settlements there?

    It illegally occupies the west bank and east jerusalem.


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    #53
    mrsweebri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭mrsweebri


    comongethappy wrote: »
    I'm unsure what parts of Gaza are under occupation?
    Is there Israeli settlements there?
    there are no settlements in Gaza. But Israel retain control over most borders and all sea/port. That is why people refer to Gaza as an 'open prison'.

    The best hope for peace comes from moderates on all sides. Unfortunately I think they're all dead.


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    #54
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    I'm unsure what parts of Gaza are under occupation?
    Is there Israeli settlements there?


    Israel controls Gaza, and occupies Arab East Jerusalem, the West Bank etc.


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    #55
    mrsweebri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭mrsweebri


    Actually that wasn't very constructive. I would also say that both sides must realise that any deal will not take place all at once. Palestinian government do not have control over their whole population, so there will be rogue elements that continue violence. Israel will have to accept this.

    Israel are not able to suddenly move all settlers off occupied land, release all prisoners and end the Gaza siege in one week. So Palestinians will have to accept that their concessions will take time too. In the meantime the leaders on both sides AND THEIR BACKERS should openly call for peace among their own people.

    I don't see it happening, but that would be my dream.


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    #56
    donaghb
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭donaghb


    so Israel defends by bombing hospitals???


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    #57
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    donaghb wrote: »
    so Israel defends by bombing hospitals???

    If rockets are being launched from the rooftop of one, what do you expect.

    The point of the thread is how can it be done in a way that isn't excessive & more acceptable to the Intl community.


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    #58
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    comongethappy wrote: »
    If rockets are being launched from the rooftop of one, what do you expect.

    The point of the thread is how can it be done in a way that isn't excessive & more acceptable to the Intl community.

    I was actually impressed with the "knocking on the roof" idea, that gives people a chance at least.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69icTMgIjlw


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    #59
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    I was actually impressed with the "knocking on the roof" idea, that gives people a chance at least.

    So was I..... If only in the weapon.

    A truck with a launcher on the back, would be disabled if struck by a heavier version of the "knock".... No explosives used.

    The "knock" could disable a Hamas missile team operating from a rooftop.

    No explosives & no excess damage, but the job would be done.


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    #60
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    comongethappy wrote: »
    If rockets are being launched from the rooftop of one, what do you expect.

    The operative word there is "if". There seems to be scant evidence of Hamas making attacks from hospital roof tops etc. We have seen to high profile examples of Israel attacking children on a beach, with no Hamas rocket fire in site, and this was confirmed by members of media who were there, and also an attack on a cafe showing the world cup as another example. It seems that Israel isn't exactly any better than Hamas, with there own attacks.

    Also, the knock on the roof, is also a war crime, unless Israel can prove that attacks are being launched from that house. Giving civilians are warning that you are going to blow up there home, is still a war crime, unless Israel can show evidence that Hamas militants are operating there, and they have yet to provide any such evidence.


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    #61
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    comongethappy wrote: »
    If rockets are being launched from the rooftop of one, what do you expect.

    The point of the thread is how can it be done in a way that isn't excessive & more acceptable to the Intl community.

    But wouldn't the launcher be long gone by the time that Israel responds in kind? Yes by destroying the roof from which the rocket was launched you have the very short term gain of ensuring that no more rockets will be launched from it but you also have the (very real potential) long term loss of radicalising the people who lived in the now destroyed house and their relatives and ensuring that yet more rockets get fired at them.

    It just doesn't strike me as a sound military option to take. Israel are taking far too much of a reactive response when they should be taking a more proactive one.


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