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Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

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24567…26

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    #32
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nodin wrote: »
    The only reason Gaza isn't still being colonised is violence and the threat of it. The West Bank has operated under a Fatah maintained peace for nearly a decade and the only result is a massive expansion of settlements. The non-violent route is blocked, because there is no peaceful method of acting against Israel - sanctions are blocked at the UN and the US uses its weight to block any moves by the EU.

    I can understand that your argument for the use of violence & when your back is to the wall & you have little to live for, talk of peace looks useless.

    I just think it odd supporting the violence of one while condemning the other side for doing same.

    If both sides use violence, are both not wrong?


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    #33
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    I can understand that your argument for the use of violence & when your back is to the wall & you have little to live for, talk of peace looks useless.

    I just think it odd supporting the violence of one while condemning the other side for doing same.

    If both sides use violence, are both not wrong?

    It would be odd if I was a pacifist.

    No, because the Israelis - by colonising the West Bank etc - are the aggressors. Any resistance to such is entirely justified, given that all peaceful routes have been blocked.


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    #34
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Nodin wrote: »
    It would be odd if I was a pacifist.

    No, because the Israelis - by colonising the West Bank etc - are the aggressors. Any resistance to such is entirely justified, given that all peaceful routes have been blocked.

    On a long enough timeline, the Israelis can feel aggrieved, what with its neighbours repeated attempts to declare war on & destroy Israel.

    Not to condone the current status-quo, but in this conflict, all sides can feel aggrieved.

    It looks odd to support Palestinian violence & condone Israels, because Israel is simply better & more effective at dishing it out.

    I can appreciate principled resistance, but both sides can feel legitimately righteous in that regard.


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    #35
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Good post.

    However, Hamas are neither defeated, nor armed with bottle-rockets.

    I think its unfair to expect Israel do nothing when attacked by hundreds of rockets..... That scale of attack isn't a 'gesture'.

    Retaliation is inevitable, though questions can be asked about proportionality.

    Hamas will never be defeated while Israel continue to murder Palestinians.
    You can be sure that every time the Israelis kill 20/30 civilians then Hamas can welcome 50/60 new recruits from the effected families into their ranks.

    Israel accused Hamas of these 3 murders without a shred of evidence BUT it was a welcome excuse to target their ire at Hamas thus stirring up the hornets nest. Israel seemingly has no interest in peace. They do the same thing all the time.


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    #36
    Da Shins Kelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    Nodin wrote: »
    Found this. It's a bit "off" to say the least. Vile stuff.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/australia-fm-dont-call-settlements-illegal-under-international-law/

    That's what I'd expect on a message board or from the right wing element in the US, tbh. Very suprising.

    I didn't read it off that article, but certainly I was thinking it didnt sound right. I assume it's an argument the Israelis make themselves.


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    #37
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Hamas by their actions are murdering Palestinens.
    There will never be peace while such terrorists are active.

    'Hamas Spokesman Urges Gazans to Act as Human Shields for Hamas Leaders'


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    #38
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    The Israeli defenders in here really do baffle me:confused::rolleyes: I wonder can they defend the near beaten to death of a young teenage boy that happened this past week.



    The state of Israel is rotten to the core.


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    #39
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Hamas by their actions are murdering Palestinens.
    There will never be peace while such terrorists are active.

    'Hamas Spokesman Urges Gazans to Act as Human Shields for Hamas Leaders'

    That situation is created by being down-trodden
    Israel are the aggressors.


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    #40
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Hamas by their actions are murdering Palestinens.
    There will never be peace while such terrorists are active.

    'Hamas Spokesman Urges Gazans to Act as Human Shields for Hamas Leaders'

    But do the Israelis really desire peace. a peace that is based on mutual agreeable terms and not just Israeli demands and requirements . They certainly do not act in a way conducive to a possible shared peace. Why do they keep stealing Palestinian land. How do you figure peace is possible, Hamas aside , when medieval sh1t like that continues to happen. You can not encircle your neighbours in an open air prison , continually steal their stuff and kill them , and expect them to be either happy or accepting of it. Common sense would say so. There is more to it than Hamas are bad and such.seriously what part of you can't steal your neighbours stuff and oppress then and them to be cool about it do Israelis not get. I don't get that myself.


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    #41
    Da Shins Kelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    Didn't Palestine get a chance to put a lot of this to bed in Camp David and refused to agree. Wasn't the breakdown if those talks largely blamed on Arafat?


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    #42
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Da Shins Kelly wrote: »
    Didn't Palestine get a chance to put a lot of this to bed in Camp David and refused to agree. Wasn't the breakdown if those talks largely blamed on Arafat?

    He wouldn't budge on demanding the return of refugees (I think).


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    #43
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    WakeUp wrote: »
    But do the Israelis really desire peace. a peace that is based on mutual agreeable terms and not just Israeli demands and requirements . They certainly do not act in a way conducive to a possible shared peace. Why do they keep stealing Palestinian land. How do you figure peace is possible, Hamas aside , when medieval sh1t like that continues to happen. You can not encircle your neighbours in an open air prison , continually steal their stuff and kill them , and expect them to be either happy or accepting of it. Common sense would say so. There is more to it than Hamas are bad and such.seriously what part of you can't steal your neighbours stuff and oppress then and them to be cool about it do Israelis not get. I don't get that myself.

    Hamas is just a smoke screen for these attacks, there trying to break the will of the Palestinians so they agree to give up there right of return.


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    #44
    seanaway
    Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    It's reasonably simple.

    Accept that Israel has a right to exist.
    Sit down and talk.
    Agree
    Peace.

    Alas, as long as loopy fundamentalists such as Hamas refuse to do this there can be no peace.

    And yes there are fundamentalists on the other side too.

    The difference?

    Hamas et al want the destruction of Israel and are answerable to no one - excpet the wrong end of the Israeli Defence Forces. And answerable they will be.

    Anyone remember the PLO? They were supposed to be unbeatable too.


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    #45
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    seanaway wrote: »
    It's reasonably simple.

    Accept that Israel has a right to exist.
    Sit down and talk.
    Agree
    Peace.

    Alas, as long as loopy fundamentalists such as Hamas refuse to do this there can be no peace.

    And yes there are fundamentalists on the other side too.

    The difference?

    Hamas et al want the destruction of Israel and are answerable to no one - excpet the wrong end of the Israeli Defence Forces. And answerable they will be.

    Anyone remember the PLO? They were supposed to be unbeatable too.

    Why don't Israel go back to pre 1967 borders as is recognised by international law and then maybe Hamas will recognise them as a state.


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    #46
    seanaway
    Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    Why don't Israel go back to pre 1967 borders as is recognised by international law and then maybe Hamas will recognise them as a state.

    If you believe that you really don't understand Hamas and their type. remember, the 1967 borders came about because the Israelis were again attacked by vastly greater forces wishing to wipe the state off the map.

    Israel would most likely consider your idea providing they could deal with a democratically accountable government and not a bunch of loose cannons with suicidal religious beliefs.

    Look at the Sinai to confirm this.


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    #47
    OneEightSeven
    Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭OneEightSeven


    tayto lover wrote: »
    That situation is created by being down-trodden
    Israel are the aggressors.

    Does that justify the use of human shields?


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    #48
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    OneEightSeven wrote: »
    Does that justify the use of human shields?

    They are putting it up to the Israelis by doing this.
    Israel does not want to look bad in the eyes of the world and Hamas will make hay by using the deaths of any innocent civilians. The Israelis got loads of bad press in the video published earlier when their soldiers were caught on video beating a helpless American teenager.
    Sometimes you have to use whatever weapons you have.
    Doesn't justify it but its understandable.


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    #49
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    seanaway wrote: »
    If you believe that you really don't understand Hamas and their type. remember, the 1967 borders came about because the Israelis were again attacked by vastly greater forces wishing to wipe the state off the map.

    Israel would most likely consider your idea providing they could deal with a democratically accountable government and not a bunch of loose cannons with suicidal religious beliefs.

    Look at the Sinai to confirm this.

    Do you think Hamas would be democratically voted in by the Palestinians if they went back to pre 1967 borders? Not a chance would they, there only in power because the people have no other option to fight against Israeli oppression and occupation. Israel currently to this day plays into the hands of Hamas in that there bombing of Gaza is recruiting more and more of these fundamentalists.


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    #50
    QuantumP
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭QuantumP


    Its an illegal occupation whereby the occupiers are imposing a systematic genocide on an indigenous population in order to expand. Of course the indigenous will resist with whatever force they have, wouldn't you? In reality, its essentially F16's vs almost entirely defenseless people. Hamas's rockets rarely even explode they're that useless (as much as I'm sure Hamas wish they would).

    The disparity between the inhumanities imposed by either side is immense. Israel, being the nuclear force that they are, have to make the first move towards a peaceful resolution. But I can't see their blood thirsty leaders doing so without external intervention. The Israeli Economy Minister, Naftali Bennett recently said "I've killed many Arabs in my life and there's no problem with that". I mean, where do you even start with these people?


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    #51
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    seanaway wrote: »
    It's reasonably simple.

    Sure and if it was, this thread wouldn't exist.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Accept that Israel has a right to exist.

    Firstly people have rights not countries.

    Secondly, if we are to take the notion of countries having rights, then all those settlements is clearly Israels way of saying Palestine has no right to exist.

    Thirdly the PLO recognized Israel back in the 80's, and there are now well over half a million settlers on Palestinian land.

    So what your saying demonstrably wrong.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Sit down and talk.

    Which is exactly what was happening for the last year, before Israel torpedoed the talks by going back on agreements they made with Fatah.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Agree
    Peace.

    Kind of hard to do that, when one side refuses to stop settlement expansion during talks to divide the land. A reasonable person would surely come to the conclusion, that talks about resolving a conflict about land are hardly in good faith, when one party is taking that land during said talks.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Alas, as long as loopy fundamentalists such as Hamas refuse to do this there can be no peace.

    Oh please, long before Hamas, when Israel was dealing with a secular PLO, they made the same excuses there making now.
    seanaway wrote: »
    And yes there are fundamentalists on the other side too.

    Over half a million in the West Bank, put there by Israel to ensure there will never be a Palestinian state.
    seanaway wrote: »
    The difference?

    Hamas et al want the destruction of Israel and are answerable to no one - excpet the wrong end of the Israeli Defence Forces. And answerable they will be.

    And Israel clearly want there to never be a Palestinian state. So I fail to see how there any better, and the IDF have habit of murdering civilians on a regular basis and are answerable to no one, but as per usual Israel murders are excused by typical apologist nonsense.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Anyone remember the PLO? They were supposed to be unbeatable too.

    There still around......... They tried to make peace with Israel and got over half a million settlers in return......


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    #52
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Hamas by (..........)Shields for Hamas Leaders'

    Nonsense. They were at this before Hamas was founded.

    And define what you mean by "peace".

    Seanaway wrote:
    Accept that Israel (..........)difference?

    As above.

    And agree to what, exactly?


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    #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    comongethappy wrote: »
    On a long enough timeline, the Israelis can feel aggrieved, what with its neighbours repeated attempts to declare war on & destroy Israel.

    Not to condone the current status-quo, but in this conflict, all sides can feel aggrieved.

    It looks odd to support Palestinian violence & condone Israels, because Israel is simply better & more effective at dishing it out.

    I can appreciate principled resistance, but both sides can feel legitimately righteous in that regard.

    You're referring to the past. Israel is colonising Palestinian land now. That's an aggressive expansionist act.


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    #54
    seanaway
    Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    Nodin wrote: »
    You're referring to the past. Israel is colonising Palestinian land now. That's an aggressive expansionist act.
    God some of these comments are like reading a loopy left rag.

    Stop with the brainwashing and use your noggins.

    Any of you been to Israel?


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    #55
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    seanaway wrote: »
    God some of these comments are like reading a loopy left rag.

    Stop with the brainwashing and use your noggins.

    Any of you been to Israel?


    I'm sorry but that doesn't seem to relate to any points raised thus far. You might be a bit clearer. You might also be as good as to answer the question posed to you above.


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    #56
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    seanaway wrote: »
    God some of these comments are like reading a loopy left rag.

    So your defacto denying the existence of Israeli settlements, whose existence is a well established fact, that you can confirm by a quick search on Bing, Google or Yahoo.

    Personally, I think such defacto denial is like reading a loopy right wing rag. I do believe you would have a great career at the Daily Mail, you should make up a story involving George Cloony and send it in.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Stop with the brainwashing and use your noggins.

    Trying to skirt around the existence of the settlements (a well established fact) is the closest thing to an attempt at "brainwashing" on this thread, and I am of course engaging hyperbole there.
    seanaway wrote: »
    Any of you been to Israel?

    Have you been to the West Bank? Both question are entirely irrelevant.


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    #57
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    wes wrote: »
    So your defacto denying the existence of Israeli settlements, whose existence is a well established fact, that you can confirm by a quick search on Bing, Google or Yahoo.

    Personally, I think such defacto denial is like reading a loopy right wing rag. I do believe you would have a great career at the Daily Mail, you should make up a story involving George Cloony and send it in.



    Trying to skirt around the existence of the settlements (a well established fact) is the closest thing to an attempt at "brainwashing" on this thread, and I am of course engaging hyperbole there.



    Have you been to the West Bank? Both question are entirely irrelevant.

    Dont expect a reply, they don't like to hear or discuss facts:rolleyes:


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    #58
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    seanaway wrote: »
    God some of these comments are like reading a loopy left rag.

    Stop with the brainwashing and use your noggins.

    Any of you been to Israel?

    Yep I've been all over the West Bank, have you? I also saw with my own eyes the construction of dozens of illegal settlements. Have you seen them?


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    #59
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,073 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    comongethappy wrote: »

    Though when a truck with a rack of katyushas on the back parks on a street to unleash its salvo, it can't be surprising that the IDF will hit the location.
    You seem to be an expert on Hamas military operations, would you like to share your sources?
    A justification for the killing of innocent civilians by the IDF if ever I heard one.


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    #60
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    You seem to be an expert on Hamas military operations, would you like to share your sources?
    A justification for the killing of innocent civilians by the IDF if ever I heard one.

    There was a report on the BBC news last night with what the Libyan's would have called a "technical", a toyota pick-up truck with a multiple rocket launcher on the back and it was in plain sight on a street surrounded by houses.

    Hamas LOVES civilian casualties, because it can hype up impressionable arab youth into hating Israel and fool gullible western sympathisers into opposing Israel's right to defend itself.

    The IDF warns civilians to clear out of areas before making attacks, it isn't the IDF's fault if idiots decide to suicide themselves by being human shields for Hamas http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/07/gaza_civilian_casualties_while_hamas_targets_innocent_people_israel_tries.html

    Hamas and Islamic Jihad are the ones making indiscriminate attacks on civilians, but you'll hear the usual suspects on here say stuff like "oh they've only got unsophisticated rockets not like Israel" conveniently ignoring the fact that the 40lb of explosives on a grad rocket is plenty good a killing if it hits the right target, not to mention the more sophisticated missles that Hamas seems to have now.


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    #61
    nocoverart
    Registered Users Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭nocoverart


    OK, this is like 90% off topic but does anybody on here know the approximate population of Golan Heights? can't get a decent answer on my quick rummage through the tinternet.


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