How should Israel defend itself?

BlaasForRafa

comongethappy wrote: »

I think they make them?

And from Iran.

seanaway

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The root cause of the rocket fire is Israel's continued expansion into lands that never belonged to it. While the rocket fire and any other attacks against civilians are deplorable, all Israel has to do in order to gain the international community's sympathy is withdraw to its legitimate borders.
Until it does that, in my view, no military action is justified. When the reason you're being attacked is because you're committing a vile crime, you should cease to commit said crime before retaliating.

I think you need to remember that Israel has these lands because they captured them from an enemy greatly superior in number. An enemy which had the destruction of Israel as its goal.
That the enemy couldn't actually put their fight where their mouth was is as responsible for Israeli 'occupation' as anything else.

A slight aside but has anyone ever wondered why the UN doesn't ask the Russians to give Finland back the territory it invaded and stole from the Finnsish people?

Oh! Maybe it's because Russia is too big and Israel so small?

GaelMise

comongethappy wrote: »

So... How does Israel defend itself?

Apparently by killing Palestinian Men, Women and Children by the hundreds.

Nodin

seanaway wrote: »

I think you need to remember that Israel has these lands because they captured them from an enemy greatly superior in number. An enemy which had the destruction of Israel as its goal.
That the enemy couldn't actually put their fight where their mouth was is as responsible for Israeli 'occupation' as anything else.

.............

It doesn't matter how they captured them, they've no right to colonise them.

seanaway

Nodin wrote: »

It doesn't matter how they captured them, they've no right to colonise them.

Of course it matters.

They wouldn't be there if it hadn't been for Arab aggression. Now the Arabs want them to hand it back without so much as a 'sorry for trying to exterminate you' so they can shell and target from a vantage point?

Get real.

Gringo180

seanaway wrote: »

I think you need to remember that Israel has these lands because they captured them from an enemy greatly superior in number. An enemy which had the destruction of Israel as its goal.
That the enemy couldn't actually put their fight where their mouth was is as responsible for Israeli 'occupation' as anything else.

So if I went to some random house with say 6 blokes living in it and I managed to fight them and beat them would that give me the right to own there house?

Pull the other one.

seanaway

Gringo180 wrote: »

So if I went to some random house with say 6 blokes living in it and I managed to fight them and beat them would that give me the right to own there house?

Pull the other one.

No. That's a poor analogy and you know it.

If your neighbours started shooting at you form their upper window and then ran and stayed away for years because you kicked tehir ass - then yes.

Gringo180

seanaway wrote: »

No. That's a poor analogy and you know it.

If your neighbours started shooting at you form their upper window and then ran and stayed away for years because you kicked tehir ass - then yes.

I wouldn't flatten the street and kill innocent people to get them. Israels policy will eventually lead to its downfall, only a fool cant see it.

seanaway

Gringo180 wrote: »

I wouldn't flatten the street and kill innocent people to get them. Israels policy will eventually lead to its downfall, only a fool cant see it.

Now you're crossing yourself into a knot.

We were talking about the lands 'occupied' by Israel.

Back to the OP question.

It's a good one especially when you read this:

The report added that IDF soldiers being treated in Israeli hospitals for injuries sustained when fighting in Gaza said they encountered 13- and 14-year-old Palestinian children running at them wearing explosives-laden suicide-bomber belts.

Gringo180

seanaway wrote: »

It's a good one especially when you read this:

The report added that IDF soldiers being treated in Israeli hospitals for injuries sustained when fighting in Gaza said they encountered 13- and 14-year-old Palestinian children running at them wearing explosives-laden suicide-bomber belts.

Put your feet in there shoes, they are under blockade, have no hope in there lives and there is a high probability that at least one family member has been killed by, who in there eyes are evil oppressors. What would you do if your family was wiped out, wife, kids, grand kids? I in no way condone suicide bombers but I can see there justification for it in these cases.

Macha

seanaway wrote: »

No. That's a poor analogy and you know it.

If your neighbours started shooting at you form their upper window and then ran and stayed away for years because you kicked tehir ass - then yes.

Let's not forgot how aware the founders of Israel were of exactly what the creation of Israel meant. David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel, was a leading Zionist campaigner said, referring to the Palestinians,

a people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily.

In the book The Jewish Paradox, he is quoted as saying:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there.

However much I think the creation of Israel was the wrong thing to do, at least Ben-Gurion showed some appreciation of why the Palestinians were angry, and would stay angry for a long time.

In contrast, today we have seen the Israeli ambassador to the US say that Israel deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for its "unimaginable restraint" regarding Hamas: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0722/632450-israel-deserves-nobel-prize-for-restraint-dermer/


Oh and when you kill 26 members of one family to assasinate one Hamas militant, don't tell me that you're making "remarkable" efforts to avoid civilian casualties.

Nodin

seanaway wrote: »

Of course it matters.

They wouldn't be there if it hadn't been for Arab aggression. Now the Arabs want them to hand it back without so much as a 'sorry for trying to exterminate you' so they can shell and target from a vantage point?

Get real.

Who are these "Arabs" you refer to?

wes

seanaway wrote: »

It's a good one especially when you read this:

The report added that IDF soldiers being treated in Israeli hospitals for injuries sustained when fighting in Gaza said they encountered 13- and 14-year-old Palestinian children running at them wearing explosives-laden suicide-bomber belts.

Yes, because the IDF never ever make stuff up.......

partyguinness

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Much has been written in the past few weeks on the deaths of Palestinians by Israeli forces. I find it extremely distressing to see the footage of children being treated after Israeli strikes.

Nevertheless, I consider myself pro-Israel in that I am pro the continued existence of Israel as a democratic state in the Middle East, with much better treatment of LGBT people and woman than they would have in the Palestinian territories.

I do think the response of Israel has been excessive and calamitous for their international reputation.

However, how best is Israel to defend itself against huge numbers of rockets that have been fired at it from Gaza (13,000 since 2001, which amounts to about $10.4 million US)?

I ask this sincerely. How best is Israel to deal with the rockets that are fired at it, for the sake of peace?

...by buying and launching even bigger rockets to fire back but as long as the LBGT crowd are protected that's the main thing..LMAO

What are you thoughts on the origins of Israel and its emergence as a democratic state in 1947?

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

...by buying and launching even bigger rockets to fire back but as long as the LBGT crowd are protected that's the main thing..LMAO

What are you thoughts on the origins of Israel and its emergence as a democratic state in 1947?

I have written this here before, I do not see Israel reaching 100 years.

For Reals

It's not defence it's a slow annexation/genocide. How should Israel best wipe out an indigenous people?

stuar

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Much has been written in the past few weeks on the deaths of Palestinians by Israeli forces. I find it extremely distressing to see the footage of children being treated after Israeli strikes.

Nevertheless, I consider myself pro-Israel in that I am pro the continued existence of Israel as a democratic state in the Middle East, with much better treatment of LGBT people and woman than they would have in the Palestinian territories.

I do think the response of Israel has been excessive and calamitous for their international reputation.

However, how best is Israel to defend itself against huge numbers of rockets that have been fired at it from Gaza (13,000 since 2001, which amounts to about $10.4 million US)?

I ask this sincerely. How best is Israel to deal with the rockets that are fired at it, for the sake of peace?

Maybe follow the blessing of Dov Lior, "religious" leader and chief municipal rabbi of Kiryat Arba and Hebron and destroy and kill everybody in Gaza?

How about that?, that's the thinking of these filthy zionist pigs, shouldn't the question be how should the inmates of Gaza defend themselves against ongoing zionist aggression.

An Israeli Rabbi by the name of Dov Lior has recently issued an outrageous ruling which allows the indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinian civilians including children by the Israeli forces.
http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2014/07/23/israeli-rabbi-approves-killing-palestinian-civilians

Extremist Israeli Rabbi Dov Lior's Controversial Calls for Destruction of Gaza
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/extremist-israeli-rabbi-dov-lior-calls-destruction-gaza-1457942

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2014/07/idf-can-indiscriminately-carpet-bomb-gaza-to-exterminate-the-enemy-senior-zionist-orthodox-rabbi-rules-456.html

[MOD]We don't really need the debate dragged down to "filthy ... pigs" this and "filthy ... pigs" that, thanks.[/MOD]

steddyeddy

Prevention is the best cure. Respect the rights of the Palestinians to live on the land and respect legal boundaries. Stop treating the Palestinians as 2nd class citizens and you will stop giving people a reason to support Hamas.

hatrickpatrick

seanaway wrote: »

I think you need to remember that Israel has these lands because they captured them from an enemy greatly superior in number. An enemy which had the destruction of Israel as its goal.
That the enemy couldn't actually put their fight where their mouth was is as responsible for Israeli 'occupation' as anything else.

A slight aside but has anyone ever wondered why the UN doesn't ask the Russians to give Finland back the territory it invaded and stole from the Finnsish people?

Oh! Maybe it's because Russia is too big and Israel so small?

That's the central issue for me to be honest, and that's why this conflict matters to me a huge amount - I don't believe in punishing civilians for the actions of politicians, so to make civilians homeless because their politicians started a war and lost is, in my opinion, evil of the worst kind imaginable.

sleepyheadh

To most simply answer the ops original question.. Iron dome!

seanaway

steddyeddy wrote: »

Prevention is the best cure. Respect the rights of the Palestinians to live on the land and respect legal boundaries. Stop treating the Palestinians as 2nd class citizens and you will stop giving people a reason to support Hamas.

Simples

Nodin

seanaway wrote: »

Simples

You might get back to me on this.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91392889&postcount=103

Son Of A Vidic

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

How should Israel defend itself?

Joining the civilised world would certainly be a good start. Respecting Human Rights and adhering to the Geneva Convention would also be a huge plus. Meaningful negotiation and dialogue is their best form of long term defense. Their actions do nothing but create more death, destruction, fear and hate. And Another generation of Hamas recruits wait in the wings. Yes Israel will say they're fighting terrorists, yet ironically they behave worse than terrorists themselves. In Gaza, Hamas are seen as more than a resistance movement. Surely Israeli war hawks realise they will never defeat them? Hasn't history shown all of us that meaningful negotiations is the only path to long term peace and security?

Israel is the little school yard bully, that throws his weight around because his much bigger and stronger brother is standing in the corner. And as long as America tacitly backs Israels inhuman treatment of the Palestinian people. Then the cycle will continue. America needs to stop supporting the bully. Maybe then Israel will realise it needs to grow up, sit down and engage in serious negotiations to achieve long term security. But sadly right now, Israel doesn't seem to have a politician with the courage or political will to resolve an age old conflict. The only way it can be resolved is through serious and meaningful dialogue.

walshb

stuar wrote: »

How about that?, that's the thinking of these filthy zionist pigs, .

How is this type of language/hate allowed stay posted?

seanaway

walshb wrote: »

How is this type of language/hate allowed stay posted?

A just and good question. That is nothing more than a racist statement. I've had warnings for far less than that.

Disgraceful.

seanaway

Anyway, back to the op's question.


Here's an interesting view of the problem. What would you do?

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07/09/what-if-terrorists-could-shoot-this-rocket-at-your-country/

seanaway

Nodin wrote: »

You might get back to me on this.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91392889&postcount=103

Maybe you could get back to me as to your point?

What a strange habit you have of asking people to get back to you. Do you have a problem understanding the original point made or what is it?

sheesh

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Much has been written in the past few weeks on the deaths of Palestinians by Israeli forces. I find it extremely distressing to see the footage of children being treated after Israeli strikes.

Nevertheless, I consider myself pro-Israel in that I am pro the continued existence of Israel as a democratic state in the Middle East, with much better treatment of LGBT people and woman than they would have in the Palestinian territories.

I do think the response of Israel has been excessive and calamitous for their international reputation.

However, how best is Israel to defend itself against huge numbers of rockets that have been fired at it from Gaza (13,000 since 2001, which amounts to about $10.4 million US)?

I ask this sincerely. How best is Israel to deal with the rockets that are fired at it, for the sake of peace?

they could start by helping to create a second state. removing settlers from the occupied territories and returning lands to their original owners Israels best defense would be a prosperous Muslim neighbour that they have peaceful relations with they have Jordan a second one would be even better.

We in ireland are familiar with a similar conflict even after total domination by the british (by which I mean a british led government running the country with police and public servants running other services) for hundreds of years people were still meeting and planning military actions against them. so the injustice of the taking of peoples lands and properties will not be forgotten.

at some stage an israeli government will have to issue some sort of reparations. It is strange but neither side seems want to deal with the inconvenient truth that they are stuck with each other.

sheesh

seanaway wrote: »

I think you need to remember that Israel has these lands because they captured them from an enemy greatly superior in number. An enemy which had the destruction of Israel as its goal.
That the enemy couldn't actually put their fight where their mouth was is as responsible for Israeli 'occupation' as anything else.

A slight aside but has anyone ever wondered why the UN doesn't ask the Russians to give Finland back the territory it invaded and stole from the Finnsish people?

Oh! Maybe it's because Russia is too big and Israel so small?

Russia is required under international law to treat the original people living on the land thye have taken in a fair manner, something that the israeli government does not seem to be doing.

you are right that the size of a country determines which laws have to be obeyed. Israel is doing quiet well in that regard. South Africa was boycotted for apartheid. Zimbabwe is under boycott. Israel not so.

Nodin

seanaway wrote: »

Maybe you could get back to me as to your point?

Who are these "Arabs" you refer to?