Malaysian Airline shot down

mulbot

weisses wrote: »

Isn't all that is used over there Russian made ?

Over where?

weisses

mulbot wrote: »

Over where?

Ukraine ... What being possibly involved is not Russian made ?

mulbot

weisses wrote: »

Ukraine ... What being possibly involved is not Russian made ?

Have the US not armed or at least funded for the arming of "Rebels". Just out of interest,are you pro-US ,or pro Russian, or neutral,. my own view is that the US/NATO etc will do anything to paint a negative impression of Russia

weisses

mulbot wrote: »

Have the US not armed or at least funded for the arming of "Rebels". Just out of interest,are you pro-US ,or pro Russian, or neutral,. my own view is that the US/NATO etc will do anything to paint a negative impression of Russia

I consider myself neutral .. US invasion in Iraq was reprihensible .. It opened my eyes as to what you can get away with ... Now I suspect some Russian involvement ..... Geo politics are a nasty buiseness..

But to come back to the discussion .. I have seen no evidence of "western hardware" being used in Ukraine directly linked to mh17 ...

mulbot

weisses wrote: »

I consider myself neutral .. US invasion in Iraq was reprihensible .. It opened my eyes as to what you can get away with ... Now I suspect some Russian involvement ..... Geo politics are a nasty buiseness..

But to come back to the discussion .. I have seen no evidence of "western hardware" being used in Ukraine directly linked to mh17 ...

Russian involvement in what? The MH17? And from what evidence do you suspect it?

weisses

mulbot wrote: »

Russian involvement in what? The MH17? And from what evidence do you suspect it?

Just a hunch regarding MH17 ..

Only verifiable fact that will come out of it would be it was Russian made ... But that of course does not say the Russians did it

SNAKEDOC

I personally think it was one big **** up by rebels trained by russian army regulars who supplied anti aircraft batteries to them to be used against soviet built aircraft that the ukrianian air force were using against the rebels. Russia wanted ukraine back so funded and supplied rebels no big secret there when russian soldiers families were being given fantasy stories about how they died when they were " on leave" rebels get anxious let fly with a missile during a period where there are several aircraft over head maybe they were targeting a fighter who knows but it wnded up bringing down a passenger liner. Thats story one.
Ukraine pissed at the rebels decide to bring down a plane and blame the rebels so wait for a liner close to the no fly heigjt limit mh17 was 1000 feet above limit of 32,000 and bring it down over an area where a buk has being spotted. Problem is any investigation will be able to destinguish between an air to air shot and a land based missile by the damage. So story two is less likely.
i believe these are the only two possible explainations and the first will more than likely be the official findings of any report. Land based buk fired by total amateurs ending in diseaster.

DamagedTrax

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Land based buk fired by total amateurs ending in diseaster.

i'd agree with this. but which side fired it is a mystery to me.

LordSutch

Well its all happening tonight!

Breaking news: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2015/10/11/Philippines-Malaysian-flag/

Overheal

That's just saying nothing showed up in the Phillipines, the wreckage found last month was from Reunion Island. They're an ocean apart from each other.

degrassinoel

yeah just seen on the RTE website

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1013/734410-mh17-russian-made-missile/

Not specifically "The Russians", just Russian-made missile

Overheal

heard that on the news also

weisses

Now Bellincat stating Russians did bring down MH17

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/10/08/mh17-the-open-source-evidence/

Ren2k7

weisses wrote: »

Now Bellincat stating Russians did bring down MH17

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/10/08/mh17-the-open-source-evidence/

It was never in any doubt. The question now though is whether regular Russian forces brought down MH17 or rather irregular pro Russian separatists manning the BUK launcher. The latter is quite likely as well given that many Russian "rebels" came from Russia and were formerly in the Soviet/Russian army. Many are also veterans of the Afghan War.

weisses

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It was never in any doubt. The question now though is whether regular Russian forces brought down MH17 or rather irregular pro Russian separatists manning the BUK launcher. The latter is quite likely as well given that many Russian "rebels" came from Russia and were formerly in the Soviet/Russian army. Many are also veterans of the Afghan War.

My view is that it was shot down by a Russian crew

This system was only in Ukraine for a short while ....

Ren2k7

weisses wrote: »

My view is that it was shot down by a Russian crew

This system was only in Ukraine for a short while ....

Or a mix of both, with Russian military "advisers" overseeing Russian rebels operating the BUK. The launcher in question vanished back into Russia fairly quickly afterwards.

weisses

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Or a mix of both, with Russian military "advisers" overseeing Russian rebels operating the BUK. The launcher in question vanished back into Russia fairly quickly afterwards.

I think it takes months to train up a crew ... Add, that according to bellingcat this system only entered Ukraine a day or so prior to the shooting down I believe it was a well trained Russian crew

Ren2k7

weisses wrote: »

I think it takes months to train up a crew ... Add, that according to bellingcat this system only entered Ukraine a day or so prior to the shooting down I believe it was a well trained Russian crew

It should be remembered that many of these so-called "rebels" are Soviet Army veterans that fought in Afghanistan who'd have experience with such anti-air platforms. It's equally likely that a Russian regular crew manned the BUK that shot down MH17 as a "rebel" crew. Not that it matters, both the "rebel" army and Russian forces are under the control of the Kremlin. Ultimately it is the Kremlin that is to blame for the deaths of those 298 civilians on flight MH17.

SNAKEDOC

For those saying rebels could have shot it down you have to remember those missile systems are very complex weapons systems and a former soldier from afgan twenty years ago isnt goin to be able to jump into it and loose off a missile it takes a team of guys working in sincrony to accuire a target lovk on and arm the missile track the target and fire. It takes a massive amount of training and even then it is complicated. I dont believe it was anything leas than a rebel unit commanded by very highly knowledgable russian forces or a russian unit itself who fired the missile. The plane was taken down from 32,000 feet by one missile so by all accounts an experienced crew.

HensVassal

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It was never in any doubt. The question now though is whether regular Russian forces brought down MH17 or rather irregular pro Russian separatists manning the BUK launcher. The latter is quite likely as well given that many Russian "rebels" came from Russia and were formerly in the Soviet/Russian army. Many are also veterans of the Afghan War.

Saying it was never in any doubt doesn't mean a thing. You don't know who did it and you have no proof who did it. The people who have the proof who did it are not making that proof available because it somehow undercuts who they are claiming did.

If you say you've got proof of something and refuse to reveal it then chances are only 2 possibilities, 1. You don't have proof OR 2. what you have proves something different.

For the record, the investigation found that the only BUK systems in Eastern Ukraine, the area where they claim the missile was launched were in Ukrainian hands. Nobody else. Unless you are now going to state that your intelligence is better than theirs and that the rebels possess some kind of sophisticated cloaking technology, haha.

This is like the Chilcot inquiry. It will be swept under the rug and no evidence will be forthcoming...only allusion for gullible people like you. The truth might partly come out in 15 years when all the parties have left the stage, kinda like bloody Sunday and then the perps will claim an accident or something and that I'm quite confident will be the Ukrainians.

HensVassal

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

For those saying rebels could have shot it down you have to remember those missile systems are very complex weapons systems and a former soldier from afgan twenty years ago isnt goin to be able to jump into it and loose off a missile it takes a team of guys working in sincrony to accuire a target lovk on and arm the missile track the target and fire. It takes a massive amount of training and even then it is complicated. I dont believe it was anything leas than a rebel unit commanded by very highly knowledgable russian forces or a russian unit itself who fired the missile. The plane was taken down from 32,000 feet by one missile so by all accounts an experienced crew.

Not only that but the investigation determined that the only BUK systems in the area of the launch were in Ukrainian hands. Also the "Russia did it gang" explain that the Ukrainians couldn't have done it because the rebels don't have an airforce ergo they couldn't have done it. How's that for mentally retarded logic? :pac:

HensVassal

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It should be remembered that many of these so-called "rebels" are Soviet Army veterans that fought in Afghanistan who'd have experience with such anti-air platforms. It's equally likely that a Russian regular crew manned the BUK that shot down MH17 as a "rebel" crew. Not that it matters, both the "rebel" army and Russian forces are under the control of the Kremlin. Ultimately it is the Kremlin that is to blame for the deaths of those 298 civilians on flight MH17.

Really? That would make the youngest of them probably over 50 years old. And the ones who were in afghanistan at the start and were experienced soldiers and officers pushing sixty to seventy.
Any more made up bullsh1t theories? Pensioners waging a guerilla war against an army with tanks and gunships and bombers and attack aircraft and knocking airliners out of the sky :pac:

weisses

HensVassal wrote: »

Not only that but the investigation determined that the only BUK systems in the area of the launch were in Ukrainian hands. Also the "Russia did it gang" explain that the Ukrainians couldn't have done it because the rebels don't have an airforce ergo they couldn't have done it. How's that for mentally retarded logic? :pac:

Can you post some material of that investigation ?

Meanwhile something to chew on

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/53rd-report-public.pdf

And this

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2016/05/12/9248/

HensVassal

weisses wrote: »

My view is that it was shot down by a Russian crew

This system was only in Ukraine for a short while ....

Are you aware that the missile that allegedly struck the MH-17 was last produced in 1986 and completely decommissioned from the Russian Army in 2011. Are you maintaining that they brought a system that they no longer used into Ukraine?

HensVassal

weisses wrote: »

Can you post some material of that investigation ?

Meanwhile something to chew on

https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/53rd-report-public.pdf

And this

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2016/05/12/9248/

weisses, bellingcat gets paid to disseminate lies. Look at the Australian 60 minutes program that actually used 2 different locations in Ukraine and tried to lie to the public that they were the same. They were caught in a deliberate deception and bellingcat was in on this fraud.

weisses

HensVassal wrote: »

weisses, bellingcat gets paid to disseminate lies. Look at the Australian 60 minutes program that actually used 2 different locations in Ukraine and tried to lie to the public that they were the same. They were caught in a deliberate deception and bellingcat was in on this fraud.

Can you point to a reputable source stating this

All i hear and see are your opinions countering actual evidence ...

Are you aware that the missile that allegedly struck the MH-17 was last produced in 1986 and completely decommissioned from the Russian Army in 2011. Are you maintaining that they brought a system that they no longer used into Ukraine?

Again a source other then your opinion would be nice..At least we can have a discussion then

weisses

HensVassal wrote: »

Are you aware that the missile that allegedly struck the MH-17 was last produced in 1986 and completely decommissioned from the Russian Army in 2011. Are you maintaining that they brought a system that they no longer used into Ukraine?

Just to add

The crash of flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 was caused by the detonation of a 9N314M-type warhead launched from the eastern part of Ukraine using a Buk missile system

Evidence presented here

https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf

skip to page 132

HensVassal

Just want you to read this farcical Guardian article which baldly states a plethora of "facts" that it clearly never researched. Whoever wrote this article ought to be canned from a broadsheet and maybe given an op-ed at The Sun, or The Beano.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/13/flight-mh17-two-years-on-putin-killed-my-son-richard-mayne-ukraine

HensVassal

weisses wrote: »

Just to add



Evidence presented here

https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/debcd724fe7breport-mh17-crash.pdf

skip to page 132

Well the manufacturers of the missile system conducted their own investigation and even sent their findings to the Dutch who promptly ignored it. They also ignored the Russian provision of radar imagery and they ignored multiple eyewitness testimony. Wouldn't a true investigation weigh up ALL evidence? Why ignore anything? In a murder investigation everyone with the slightest bit of information is questioned and brought into court to testify, unless of course it's a stitch up like the Guildford Four and evidence is suppressed.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/mh17-russian-missilemaker-almaz-antey-contradicts-dutch-report-says-plane-downed-by-outdated-buk-missile-fired-from-ukrainian-military-controlled-village-of-zaroshchenskoye-31607028.html

weisses

HensVassal wrote: »

Well the manufacturers of the missile system conducted their own investigation and even sent their findings to the Dutch who promptly ignored it. They also ignored the Russian provision of radar imagery and they ignored multiple eyewitness testimony. Wouldn't a true investigation weigh up ALL evidence? Why ignore anything? In a murder investigation everyone with the slightest bit of information is questioned and brought into court to testify, unless of course it's a stitch up like the Guildford Four and evidence is suppressed.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/mh17-russian-missilemaker-almaz-antey-contradicts-dutch-report-says-plane-downed-by-outdated-buk-missile-fired-from-ukrainian-military-controlled-village-of-zaroshchenskoye-31607028.html

How does almaz aty explain the bow-tie and cubes fragments that were found in the wreckage and bodies of the crew ? These shape of fragments are only used on 9N314M-type warheads

And the commision did not Ignore the Almazaty findings evident on page 144 of the report

But hey if its in the Belfast telegraph you must be right

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with both the bellincat and the dutch report ... They are full of actual evidence and facts.