***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Barely There

Smidge wrote: »

Lol.
Point missed completely.
The scheme is in place whether you or I like it or not.
So you think it's perfectly fine for a government department to threaten householders who by the state are already considered vulnerable, hence the payment, with eviction from their homes if they do not comply with a private company (and no point in denying that it is anything else, that won't wash)?

Yeah, I'm totally comfortable with it.

Next.

Smidge

Barely There wrote: »

Yeah, I'm totally comfortable with it.

Next.

And that's why you are in the minority.

VinLieger

Smidge wrote: »

And that's why you are in the minority.

And if they don't pay who ends up being liable for it? The government which is their landlord.

People need to pay for water and you cannot use the excuse we already pay through taxes anymore cus the reduction in taxes and relief on water removes that argument

Smidge

VinLieger wrote: »

And if they don't pay who ends up being liable for it? The government which is their landlord.

People need to pay for water and you cannot use the excuse we already pay through taxes anymore cus the reduction in taxes and relief on water removes that argument

Tbh Vin, I don't bother posting much on this thread as it goes around in circles.
The bottom line is that the majority of people in this country will not be paying the water charges.
The pro IW side can rage against that all they like. It won't change a thing.
IW will fall and it may very well bring the coalition with it.

VinLieger

Smidge wrote: »

Tbh Vin, I don't bother posting much on this thread as it goes around in circles.
The bottom line is that the majority of people in this country will not be paying the water charges.
The pro IW side can rage against that all they like. It won't change a thing.
IW will fall and it may very well bring the coalition with it.

Yes and i'm saying what then? IW fails where do we get our water from, the colaition fails who's next? Independents and SF? Im gonna use an analogy someone else used for what this would be like, have you ever tried to herd cats?

We may not want to pay for our water but guess what sometimes life is not fair and children don't get to have ice cream for dinner.

tigger123

Smidge wrote: »

Tbh Vin, I don't bother posting much on this thread as it goes around in circles.
The bottom line is that the majority of people in this country will not be paying the water charges.
The pro IW side can rage against that all they like. It won't change a thing.
IW will fall and it may very well bring the coalition with it.

Like people are refusing to pay the property tax?

_Kaiser_

tigger123 wrote: »

Like people are refusing to pay the property tax?

The property tax has Revenue to fall-back on and can be deducted at source if people refuse to cough up.

IW doesn't have that fall-back.. (not yet anyway)

irishfeen

I think every help possible should be given to those who genuinely cannot pay the water tax - taxpayers have a moral responsibility to bring everyone in society along so I would have absolutely no issue with these being helped out but what I do have a problem with is useless cúnts using their dole/children's allowance or other welfare allowance on drink, paddy power, drugs and refusing point blank to pay this tax ... They should be up in court and maybe even have their rent allowance or social house removed ... They can fcuk right off if they think people up at 5 and 6 in the morning for work should be paying for them via General taxation.

Smidge

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes and i'm saying what then? IW fails where do we get our water from, the colaition fails who's next? Independents and SF? Im gonna use an analogy someone else used for what this would be like, have you ever tried to herd cats?

We may not want to pay for our water but guess what sometimes life is not fair and children don't get to have ice cream for dinner.

Look, you and I both know how much money that has already been paid into IW. It will cost €650 MILLION to get IW up and running and if every single household in the state pays, it will bring in €150 MILLION.
Shortfall of €500 MILLION which is going to be funded by the state.

We both well know that the LA could upgrade the current system and run it perfectly well with €650 MILLION.
But that wouldn't profit private individuals though.

irishfeen

Smidge wrote: »

Look, you and I both know how much money that has already been paid into IW. It will cost €650 MILLION to get IW up and running and if every single household in the state pays, it will bring in €150 MILLION.
Shortfall of €500 MILLION which is going to be funded by the state.

We both well know that the LA could upgrade the current system and run it perfectly well with €650 MILLION.
But that wouldn't profit private individuals though.

You think €650 million will fix all the issues in the country in the water/wastewater networks?

Smidge

tigger123 wrote: »

Like people are refusing to pay the property tax?

Apples and oranges.
Not much of a strawman either.

Smidge

irishfeen wrote: »

You think €650 million will fix all the issues in the country in the water/wastewater networks?

Not if we give it to IW.
All it will do then is go into the never ending pit of bonuses and perks and underhanded payments in the never ending circle of backslapping and corruption.

BoJack Horseman

irishfeen wrote: »

You think €650 million will fix all the issues in the country in the water/wastewater networks?

The gov spent €240m on infrastructure out of €1.2 billion spent on water last year.

I think folk fail to grasp the vastness of scale that paying for a first class water/sewage system would cost

The IW startup money would not have gone far at all

VinLieger

Smidge wrote: »

Look, you and I both know how much money that has already been paid into IW. It will cost €650 MILLION to get IW up and running and if every single household in the state pays, it will bring in €150 MILLION.
Shortfall of €500 MILLION which is going to be funded by the state.

We both well know that the LA could upgrade the current system and run it perfectly well with €650 MILLION.
But that wouldn't profit private individuals though.

The LA being the Left Alliance I assume? Hah good luck getting them to agree on anything beyond Tax the Rich and Fine Gael/Labour out of government, beyond that they are just as bad as the current shower and possibly even worse as they are divided even further as regards keeping their constituents happy being their main focus and actually running the country efficiently being a distant 2nd

Smidge

VinLieger wrote: »

The LA being the Left Alliance I assume? Hah good luck getting them to agree on anything beyond Tax the Rich and Fine Gael/Labour out of government, beyond that they are just as bad as the current shower and possibly even worse as they are divided even further as regards keeping their constituents happy being their main focus and actually running the country efficiently being a distant 2nd

Eh no.
The LA would be Local Authorities.

Barely There

VinLieger wrote: »

The LA being the Left Alliance I assume? Hah good luck getting them to agree on anything beyond Tax the Rich and Fine Gael/Labour out of government, beyond that they are just as bad as the current shower and possibly even worse as they are divided even further as regards keeping their constituents happy being their main focus and actually running the country efficiently being a distant 2nd

Local Authority.

VinLieger

Barely There wrote: »

Local Authority.

Gotcha, brain fart on my part however see the post above regards how much water actually cost's to run, 650 is a bit shy of the actual number

irishfeen

Smidge wrote: »

Not if we give it to IW.
All it will do then is go into the never ending pit of bonuses and perks and underhanded payments in the never ending circle of backslapping and corruption.

You don't seem to realise - while the bonuses and perks annoy all of us that the money you talk about is penny's compared with the job IW have to fix the network ... The LAs have been patching up the network for decades - about 80% of the pipelines will probably have to be changed and upgrades along with the building of new treatment plants and reservoirs in most towns and cities in the country ... You talk in millions this is billions upon billions of work needed - you obviously have absolutely no idea of what state the country is in... Just look at the IW website breaks and works site - burst mains, burst pipes, low pressure, no water, boil notice ... And that's in every single county in the state.

VinLieger

irishfeen wrote: »

You don't seem to realise - while the bonuses and perks annoy all of us that the money you talk about is penny's compared with the job IW have to fix the network ... The LAs have been patching up the network for decades - about 80% of the pipelines will probably have to be changed and upgrades along with the building of new treatment plants and reservoirs in most towns and cities in the country ... You talk in millions this is billions upon billions of work needed - you obviously have absolutely no idea of what state the country is in... Just look at the IW website breaks and works site - burst mains, burst pipes, low pressure, no water, boil notice etc.

Exactly and this is why we need 1 single entity to manage and prioritise the fixing of our water infrastructure.

The fractured and haphazard nature of the LA's doing it has not worked for the last however many years so something need's to change hence IW.

Smidge

irishfeen wrote: »

You don't seem to realise - while the bonuses and perks annoy all of us that the money you talk about is penny's compared with the job IW have to fix the network ... The LAs have been patching up the network for decades - about 80% of the pipelines will probably have to be changed and upgrades along with the building of new treatment plants and reservoirs in most towns and cities in the country ... You talk in millions this is billions upon billions of work needed - you obviously have absolutely no idea of what state the country is in... Just look at the IW website breaks and works site - burst mains, burst pipes, low pressure, no water, boil notice ... And that's in every single county in the state.

I don't think you are in any position to speculate about what I know about the "state that the country is in".
It's no mystery to me.
It's also no mystery that IW will not stand for very much longer.

Leroy42

VinLieger wrote: »

Exactly and this is why we need 1 single entity to manage and prioritise the fixing of our water infrastructure.

The fractured and haphazard nature of the LA's doing it has not worked for the last however many years so something need's to change hence IW.

Fine, have one authority overlook it, if anything this should actually reduce the overall cost to the government.

Instead of that we got HSE Mark II. All the current LA workers are being taken on by IW, so no savings due to streamlining. The LA's still will be covering the actual work, just another, expensive, layer of bureocracy on top. Fine if that additional layer leads to costs savings and productivity gains but I haven't seen anything from IW stating what they will actually achieve. I hear of them about protecting our water for the future blah, but have they any targets on limiting water usage? Have they any cost reduction targets. What happens to all the mutliple people who worked on the same job in each LA, are they being laid off?

So before they have actually acheived any savings, the government borrowed 500m to buy and install water meters, billing systems, logos, advertising etc.

Why not use that money to make the changes to the LA first, show the public what can be saved and then turn to them and let them know it's our turn.

By fixing the leaks they will save massive amounts as the amount of water required will reduce. By having one central system they can achieve cost savings through joined up thinking and bulk buying. They can make massive savings by having a much smaller sental team rather than 36 seperate teams. They did not need to waste all this money on IT systems, advertising campaings, logos etc.

T-Maxx

Smidge wrote: »

I don't think you are in any position to speculate about what I know about the "state that the country is in".
It's no mystery to me.
It's also no mystery that IW will not stand for very much longer.

I think you need to return that crystal ball for a refund.

VinLieger

Smidge wrote: »

I don't think you are in any position to speculate about what I know about the "state that the country is in".
It's no mystery to me.
It's also no mystery that IW will not stand for very much longer.

That people are excited over IW failing is not a good thing, we need one water entity to oversee the system, creating another one from scratch will take more years of indecision and more money while our infrastructure continues to fall apart around the country.

Ignoring the facts cus you don't like them doesn't make them any less true.

VEN

VEN wrote: »

wheres theres 5 tenants occupying an apartment, it says please call Lo-Call 1890 to add more names to bill, as theres just one space asking for First Name
and not First Name, can you just put Occupiers on it as the way it came without pps numbers? will it be a case of pulling straws as to whose name goes on it? should be all names, but Occupiers would be easier.

I mean it would effectively be telling them the property is Occupied, so should be enough surely. They havent thought of this with strangers living together.
F*** it, just ignore it i suppose, they havent even got separate meters sorted plus some of the apartments didnt even get a form! its all a mess

anyone?

Banjo String

tigger123 wrote: »

Like people are refusing to pay the property tax?

Well with Revenue refusing tax clearance certs, and docking wages/salaries/social/pensions/bank accounts, people don't have much choice in 'complying' as it's being forced on them anyway. (the fact they had to introduce such measures shows its popularity tbh)

Personally, I prefer to use the hhc as a gauge to compare how Irish Water compliance will go.

The Revenue Commissioners has said it will pursue hundreds of thousands of individuals who have yet to pay the Household Charge for 2011.

The €100 charge was introduced as an interim measure ahead of the Local Property Tax in 2013.

Revenue records suggest 460,000 householders who have subsequently paid the Local Property Tax have yet to pay the Household Charge.

Chair of the Revenue Commission Josephine Feehily told the Public Accounts Committee the final figure was expected to fall between 400,000 and 500,000 properties.

http://m.rte.ie/news/2014/0220/505536-revenue/

Barely There

VEN wrote: »

anyone?

Hi.

irishfeen

Smidge wrote: »

I don't think you are in any position to speculate about what I know about the "state that the country is in".
It's no mystery to me.
It's also no mystery that IW will not stand for very much longer.

Are you a civil engineer, water or wastewater engineer or work in water? Because if you were I refuse to believe you think the country Is not as bad as I say.

Facts are facts and billions need to be invested.

tigger123

Smidge wrote: »

Apples and oranges.
Not much of a strawman either.

Not really. The same passionate protestations were put out in similar threads about the property tax and the Government hasn't fallen on it, nor will it. The poster I was replying to was saying that it will fail, and the Government with it. Which is naive.

Btw, I don't necessarily support IW.

Wile E. Coyote

Smidge wrote: »

It's also no mystery that IW will not stand for very much longer.

So what's your proposal? Spend another couple of hundred million dismantling Irish Water and give responsibility back to the local authorities who couldn't handle it in the first place? Should we continue borrowing €1 billion+ each year to maintain the current service?

Tony EH

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes and i'm saying what then? IW fails where do we get our water from...

Where were you getting it from before?

It's not like IW set up Ireland's water infrastructure from scratch.

The only thing they set up was a billing mechanism...and they've made a right balls of that.