***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

VinLieger

Tony EH wrote: »

Where were you getting it from before?

It's not like IW set up Ireland's water infrastructure from scratch.

The only thing they set up was a billing mechanism...and they've made a right balls of that.

As opposed to the LA's who shown they arent capable of managing it and keeping it in order at all?

The money still has to come from somewhere as well so we add it onto the deficit and all the tax relief from the budget get's scrapped to make up the hole?

gladrags

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

So what's your proposal? Spend another couple of hundred million dismantling Irish Water and give responsibility back to the local authorities who couldn't handle it in the first place? Should we continue borrowing €1 billion+ each year to maintain the current service?

That appears to be the way it works.

HSE another example of many.

Decades of poor governance,poor services,no accountability.

Throw in the corporate corruption,and we will get exactly what we voted for.

Why was this vital amenity allowed to rot for decades?

Privatisation in this country of an essential service,should not be taken lightly.

The privatisation of another basic right,housing, is a wake up call.

Tony EH

VinLieger wrote: »

As opposed to the LA's who shown they arent capable of managing it and keeping it in order at all?

That doesn't warrant the setting up of a private company to handle the affairs of a public water supply though.

Everyone will be in agreement with the mismanagement of the Irish water system in the past by successive bodies, but it's scant excuse to support a quango like Irish Water.

This is going to be a disaster, but I'm sure "godsh*tes" like Mr Tierney will do well out of it though.

VinLieger

gladrags wrote: »

That appears to be the way it works.

HSE another example of many.

Decades of poor governance,poor services,no accountability.

Throw in the corporate corruption,and we will get exactly what we voted for.

Why was this vital amenity allowed to rot for decades?

Privatisation in this country of an essential service,should not be taken lightly.

The privatisation of another basic right,housing, is a wake up call.

Ask FF that who through the good years spent scant all improving it.

Also how is housing becoming privatised?

hiFidelity

I read in the Indo that there was a big row last night in Leinster House, between FG members and IW.
J Tierney was called a 'gobsh1te' by a FG td. The row was over IW communications and bonuses system.

Wile E. Coyote

gladrags wrote: »

Why was this vital amenity allowed to rot for decades?

Because we all wanted tax cuts and FF were only too happy to oblige to ensure they got re-elected.

Barely There

gladrags wrote: »

Why was this vital amenity allowed to rot for decades?

Mostly because there's feck all votes for Governments in improving infrastructure.
The vast majority of our infrastructure is allowed to fall to dangerously poor levels before panicked Governments throw shedloads of money at the problem when the electorate start to anger.

Our infrastructural spending was cut to the bone during the recession - far easier to do this than tell the Nurses or Teachers we'd need to cut salaries further.

Upgrading of infrastructure takes long-term planning and investment - most Governments are only concerned about what the next election results will be.

A section of National Primary Road for example will take 6-8 years to bring from planning stage to cutting the ribbon - so we need to be planning for the roads we'll need in 2022 now - that simply isn't happening. We'll have gridlock on a lot of our roads by the end of the decade- then something will be done, it'll be too late though.

Smidge

irishfeen wrote: »

Are you a civil engineer, water or wastewater engineer or work in water? Because if you were I refuse to believe you think the country Is not as bad as I say.

Facts are facts and billions need to be invested.

Whuh???
You said "the state the country is in"
You think that the country is just IW?

The country is in a complete state.
That's what happens when you allow lunatics to continue to run the asylum even after the show more and more examples of their lunacy.

IW is another fine example of such.

irishfeen

Smidge wrote: »

Whuh???
You said "the state the country is in"
You think that the country is just IW?

The country is in a complete state.
That's what happens when you allow lunatics to continue to run the asylum even after the show more and more examples of their lunacy.

IW is another fine example of such.

I meant the state of the country's water and wastewater network - I'm sure you knew that...

seamus

hawkelady wrote: »

Do any of the folks here who support/agree with Irish water also agree with the fact that landlords will be liable if their tenants refuse to pay ?

hawkelady wrote: »

But what if the tenant doesn't register ? Have Irish water really thought this through ? It sounds as if they are making the rules up as they go along tbh

Oh dear.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-water-tenants-still-liable-for-unpaid-bill-after-they-move-out-645590.html

I guess this is what happens when you hire people who are accustomed to working in the public sector and saying what they think is the correct answer instead of going off and finding out.

I made the observation a week ago that a landlord cannot be held liable for the cost of water that he didn't use, but only today did Irish Water come to this realisation themselves.

Landlords cannot be held vicariously liable for their tenants' debts. So in the event that the tenant does not register, the landlord simply has to tell Irish Water that the property is occupied by a tenant, and it's up to Irish Water then to chase that tenant. Data Protection prevents the landlord from providing a name or PPSN to IW.

If the tenant moves out without paying, the new tenant registers with Irish Water and is liable for the water charges from that day forward.

Iwasfrozen

FREETV wrote: »

Money and the lack of it are the reasons why people are dying of starvation everyday worldwide or homeless and living in despair.

Money is the tool used to distribute food at all.

Stop watching Star Trek.

listermint

Attempted to open a new thread on this because i believe it deserved a question on its own, but some brightspark moved it into politics cafe. Its a question that deserves more traffic that politics cage

Revelation after revelation each week we hear more about Fine Gael and Labour's insults to the population. Between incidences of direct nepotism , Cronyism lack of ethics and incredibly misjudged decisions.

Is this enough to bring the government down ?

The time for deflection appears closing.

Enda has been caught out lying once again. I recall watching his speech in the Dail about this, and frankly half believing him. But the facts are now out.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-misleading-dail-irish-water-bonuses-1728207-Oct2014/

During a lively Dáil debate on 7 October, the Taoiseach said:
No bonuses have been paid to anyone in Irish Water and the chief executive will not be paid a bonus.
Irish Water does not have a policy of pay increments and has a pay freeze until 2016.
In a letter dated yesterday, however, Irish Water’s parent company Ervia, told Fleming it has paid out €5.1 million in bonuses to 940 staff so far this year:

And 3.7 Million the previous year.

If the other guy was Teflon, is this fella Ceramic ???

hiFidelity

I think that is why there was that major row in Leinster House last night between IW and FG. Some FG tds are very angry with IW, in particular over their bonus structures, as they know it makes for very bad pr and will cost them their seats when FG get stuffed in the next election.

Wile E. Coyote

listermint wrote: »

Attempted to open a new thread on this because i believe it deserved a question on its own, but some brightspark moved it into politics cafe. Its a question that deserves more traffic that politics cage

Revelation after revelation each week we hear more about Fine Gael and Labour's insults to the population. Between incidences of direct nepotism , Cronyism lack of ethics and incredibly misjudged decisions.

Is this enough to bring the government down ?

The time for deflection appears closing.

Enda has been caught out lying once again. I recall watching his speech in the Dail about this, and frankly half believing him. But the facts are now out.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-misleading-dail-irish-water-bonuses-1728207-Oct2014/



And 3.7 Million the previous year.

If the other guy was Teflon, is this fella Ceramic ???

I'm not defending the bonuses either way but we're they paid to Ervia (Bord Gais) staff or directly to Irish Water staff. While Ervia are the parent conpany they're still two different operating entities.

I don't see it bringin down the government though. They're not going to walk away and the 2016 election is a long time away. People will forget the bad after the next 'good' budget.

sammy37

listermint wrote: »

Attempted to open a new thread on this because i believe it deserved a question on its own, but some brightspark moved it into politics cafe. Its a question that deserves more traffic that politics cage

Revelation after revelation each week we hear more about Fine Gael and Labour's insults to the population. Between incidences of direct nepotism , Cronyism lack of ethics and incredibly misjudged decisions.

Is this enough to bring the government down ?

The time for deflection appears closing.

Enda has been caught out lying once again. I recall watching his speech in the Dail about this, and frankly half believing him. But the facts are now out.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-misleading-dail-irish-water-bonuses-1728207-Oct2014/



And 3.7 Million the previous year.

If the other guy was Teflon, is this fella Ceramic ???

Here i am still no water meter installed and no form received yet so all they can do is estimate my bill even though i converse water by rain harvesting as much as i can.But i will still get the same bill as someone who could leave the tap on all day.I will have to wait until a meter is installed to get a refund even though i really cant afford a big bill now.And here they are throwing out bonuses like confetti when they have put the cart before the horse and made a complete mess of setting this up.

Irish Steve

listermint wrote: »

Revelation after revelation each week we hear more about Fine Gael and Labour's insults to the population. Between incidences of direct nepotism , Cronyism lack of ethics and incredibly misjudged decisions.

Is this enough to bring the government down ?

The time for deflection appears closing.

Enda has been caught out lying once again. I recall watching his speech in the Dail about this, and frankly half believing him. But the facts are now out.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-misleading-dail-irish-water-bonuses-1728207-Oct2014/



And 3.7 Million the previous year.

If the other guy was Teflon, is this fella Ceramic ???

No, but the more I see of the total disconnect between the top and the rest of the population, the more angry and resentful I become.

As far as I am concerned, there is zero justification for any bonus structure in IW at present, they have done nothing to justify any bonuses, or other "performance" rewards, and are in reality NOT performing in accordance with their own published procedures.

As for the rest of it, I was thinking about this last night, and the underlying and massive issue is that the Political classes and the Civil servants are still living in the last century, when a job was regarded as being for life, and so much of the decision making and policy that Civil servants are providing to their political masters is based on the flawed thinking that the job for life mentality engenders.

The harsh reality is that modern business and practice is that a person entering the labour market now may end up working for a significant number of companies over their working career, and that has implications for their work history, and their pension provision, among other things.

The disconnect between Kenny & co and the rest of us is just about total now, I can't remember the last time I heard any contribution from him that got my attention, or even the last time I heard a contribution from him.

I will be the first to admit that while I see the political system in this country as fundamentally and irrecoverably broken beyond any hope of repair, I don't have a suggestion on what should replace it, as right now, there is not a party or a structure in place that I would be prepared to trust with the day to day running of Ireland Inc,

The issues that I see as being essential to be addressed are that the political system has to become more focussed on what is right and good for the country, not on how to win the next election.

That means that things that are a factor, but outside of the 5 year window have to be considered. Things like long term energy use and costs, a total reform of the taxation system to make it really fair on all, a fundamental restructuring of the Civil and Public services to make them accountable and responsible, a fundamental change in the way that politics operates and is accountable, all of these, and much more, are going to have to be addressed if the people are going to be able to trust the people that are elected.


A few specific examples,

There are 2 classes of work, employed and unemployed, and things like PRSI and Tax should be based around that. There is no need, or reason to have multiple rates of PRSI, and the differentiation between PAYE and "self employed" is no longer acceptable or appropriate. Self employed should pay the same tax rates as PAYE, and as they are both employer and employee, their PRSI rates will be a LOT higher than they are now, with the BIG caveat being that the self employed should then be entitled to EXACTLY the same benefits and support services as the people in the PAYE sector, including job seekers and other benefits if they can't for some reason continue working.

Health services need to be changed to get rid completely of things like VHI and the private health insurance sector, with the resultant massive reduction in the cost of providing health services, there are way too many people "employed" in the charging and managing of billing and cost recovery from private insurers, which is adding to the total cost of healthcare for everyone. The cost of different procedures needs to be monitored, but the crazy system of trying to charge every "billable" to each patient is not valid, Sort out a funding model that means that everyone contributes to the overall cost of running the service,

Civil and Public services. The Job for life culture has to be done away with. If a person is not capable of doing the job, or fails, then there is NO justification for leaving them in position, or worse, moving them to another area with a glowing but false internal reference, which is what happens now. The people in the state sector have to be every bit as accountable and responsible as the people that run any other company, but they are not.

Politics has to become accountable and answerable to the people, and that means things like a regular question on the ballot papers at General elections to seek specific approval for things like TD's pay and conditions, and if it's not approved, then they don't get it.

We need a means in the constitution to be able to force the political system to respond to genuine concerns of the electorate, without the only option being to throw them out at the next election, with the massive problems that causes.

Its taking longer here than it did in countries like Greece, but the tide is turning, and people are becoming more prepared to stand up and be counted, and to take a stand that says "NO MORE".

If I was younger, I might consider being involved in a movement to bring about such change, but I'm too old, and too disillusioned with the present system to be capable of being objective about changing it, there are just too many ways in which we've been screwed over by some of the issues I've mentioned above for me to be objective about reforming it, and the harsh reality is that it's going to take some serious and dedicated people to bring it about, as the establishment will fight change of this magnitude with every dying breath it has, and the uncomfortable reality is that there may end up being some martyrs to this cause before it becomes reality, the stakes really are that high.

Yeah probably too long for AH, but if it doesn't start somewhere, it never will

listermint

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

I'm not defending the bonuses either way but we're they paid to Ervia (Bord Gais) staff or directly to Irish Water staff. While Ervia are the parent conpany they're still two different operating entities.

I don't see it bringin down the government though. They're not going to walk away and the 2016 election is a long time away. People will forget the bad after the next 'good' budget.

.... Don't the staff numbers match?

Barely There

Irish Steve wrote: »

No, but the more I see of the total disconnect between the top and the rest of the population, the more angry and resentful I become.

As far as I am concerned, there is zero justification for any bonus structure in IW at present, they have done nothing to justify any bonuses, or other "performance" rewards, and are in reality NOT performing in accordance with their own published procedures.

As for the rest of it, I was thinking about this last night, and the underlying and massive issue is that the Political classes and the Civil servants are still living in the last century, when a job was regarded as being for life, and so much of the decision making and policy that Civil servants are providing to their political masters is based on the flawed thinking that the job for life mentality engenders.

The harsh reality is that modern business and practice is that a person entering the labour market now may end up working for a significant number of companies over their working career, and that has implications for their work history, and their pension provision, among other things.

The disconnect between Kenny & co and the rest of us is just about total now, I can't remember the last time I heard any contribution from him that got my attention, or even the last time I heard a contribution from him.

I will be the first to admit that while I see the political system in this country as fundamentally and irrecoverably broken beyond any hope of repair, I don't have a suggestion on what should replace it, as right now, there is not a party or a structure in place that I would be prepared to trust with the day to day running of Ireland Inc,

The issues that I see as being essential to be addressed are that the political system has to become more focussed on what is right and good for the country, not on how to win the next election.

That means that things that are a factor, but outside of the 5 year window have to be considered. Things like long term energy use and costs, a total reform of the taxation system to make it really fair on all, a fundamental restructuring of the Civil and Public services to make them accountable and responsible, a fundamental change in the way that politics operates and is accountable, all of these, and much more, are going to have to be addressed if the people are going to be able to trust the people that are elected.


A few specific examples,

There are 2 classes of work, employed and unemployed, and things like PRSI and Tax should be based around that. There is no need, or reason to have multiple rates of PRSI, and the differentiation between PAYE and "self employed" is no longer acceptable or appropriate. Self employed should pay the same tax rates as PAYE, and as they are both employer and employee, their PRSI rates will be a LOT higher than they are now, with the BIG caveat being that the self employed should then be entitled to EXACTLY the same benefits and support services as the people in the PAYE sector, including job seekers and other benefits if they can't for some reason continue working.

Health services need to be changed to get rid completely of things like VHI and the private health insurance sector, with the resultant massive reduction in the cost of providing health services, there are way too many people "employed" in the charging and managing of billing and cost recovery from private insurers, which is adding to the total cost of healthcare for everyone. The cost of different procedures needs to be monitored, but the crazy system of trying to charge every "billable" to each patient is not valid, Sort out a funding model that means that everyone contributes to the overall cost of running the service,

Civil and Public services. The Job for life culture has to be done away with. If a person is not capable of doing the job, or fails, then there is NO justification for leaving them in position, or worse, moving them to another area with a glowing but false internal reference, which is what happens now. The people in the state sector have to be every bit as accountable and responsible as the people that run any other company, but they are not.

Politics has to become accountable and answerable to the people, and that means things like a regular question on the ballot papers at General elections to seek specific approval for things like TD's pay and conditions, and if it's not approved, then they don't get it.

We need a means in the constitution to be able to force the political system to respond to genuine concerns of the electorate, without the only option being to throw them out at the next election, with the massive problems that causes.

Its taking longer here than it did in countries like Greece, but the tide is turning, and people are becoming more prepared to stand up and be counted, and to take a stand that says "NO MORE".

If I was younger, I might consider being involved in a movement to bring about such change, but I'm too old, and too disillusioned with the present system to be capable of being objective about changing it, there are just too many ways in which we've been screwed over by some of the issues I've mentioned above for me to be objective about reforming it, and the harsh reality is that it's going to take some serious and dedicated people to bring it about, as the establishment will fight change of this magnitude with every dying breath it has, and the uncomfortable reality is that there may end up being some martyrs to this cause before it becomes reality, the stakes really are that high.

Yeah probably too long for AH, but if it doesn't start somewhere, it never will

TH:DR

Presume it's a big whinge about not wanting to pay extra tax?

Irish Steve

Barely There wrote: »

TH:DR

Presume it's a big whinge about not wanting to pay extra tax?

NO, try reading it. I am self employed, so one of my suggestions would end up costing me considerably more than now.

I want much wider ranging change from the top down

end of the road

Barely There wrote: »

Yeah, I'm totally comfortable with it.

Next.

good. you'l pay the trippled costs of such evictions? grand so

Smidge

Irish Steve wrote: »

NO, try reading it. I am self employed, so one of my suggestions would end up costing me considerably more than now.

I want much wider ranging change from the top down

I wouldn't bother Steve.
There's just no talking to some people.
They refuse to acknowledge that the tide is finally turning.

gladrags

listermint wrote: »

Attempted to open a new thread on this because i believe it deserved a question on its own, but some brightspark moved it into politics cafe. Its a question that deserves more traffic that politics cage

Revelation after revelation each week we hear more about Fine Gael and Labour's insults to the population. Between incidences of direct nepotism , Cronyism lack of ethics and incredibly misjudged decisions.

Is this enough to bring the government down ?

The time for deflection appears closing.

Enda has been caught out lying once again. I recall watching his speech in the Dail about this, and frankly half believing him. But the facts are now out.

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-misleading-dail-irish-water-bonuses-1728207-Oct2014/



And 3.7 Million the previous year.

If the other guy was Teflon, is this fella Ceramic ???

He is on record stating that the USC "is temporary".

There is every reason to suggest that Labour will jump ship,if they can pick up in the polls.

There appears to be a meltdown of all the fundamental services,the budget will not change this.

The housing crisis is definitely out of control,as is health.

The budget was an opportunity to outline a strategy,or short term emergency measures to stem or alleviate the crisese.

Nothing,no foward thinking,peanuts for the peasants.

Wile E. Coyote

listermint wrote: »

.... Don't the staff numbers match?

A quick google search would suggest no. From what I can see there are 310 staff employed by Irish Water and 1,200 employed by Bord Gais (Ervia) so it looks like it may be those employees who received a bonus.

I could be wrong though.

VEN

VEN wrote: »

wheres theres 5 tenants occupying an apartment, it says please call Lo-Call 1890 to add more names to bill, as theres just one space asking for First Name
and not First Name, can you just put Occupiers on it as the way it came without pps numbers? will it be a case of pulling straws as to whose name goes on it? should be all names, but Occupiers would be easier.

I mean it would effectively be telling them the property is Occupied, so should be enough surely. They havent thought of this with strangers living together.

anyone know? will The Occupiers or even The Borrowers, The Strangers, The Tenants etc put on it be ok?

Banjo String

They have signalled they may push the registration deadline back.

Wonder why

(no, not really )

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-water-signals-extension-to-registration-deadline-30670123.html

irishfeen

Its absolutely ridiculous to think water charges will sink this government - the measures announced in the budget will be enough to get the government out of jail with the vast majority.

Like it or not but water charges are here to stay - Sinn Fein's economic policy will be found out in the run up to the next general election (FG, FF, Labour & the private sector unions will tear them apart) and you will see labour, Fianna Fail and in particular Fine Gael doing well at the next GE - FG remember are consistently the most supported party over the last 3 years in the polls and they have a mandate to introduce these charges. This weeks budget was very well received among the vast majority - people can try say it wasn't but among the vast majority it was and the extra sweetener on water charges was politically very clever.

Banjo String

Extra sweetener on water charges you say?

What's this now?

€100 off a bill I won't be paying anyway, and you only get it if you sign up and register (with your PPS number) oh, and the ones who would benefit from it most, don't actually qualify for it due to their low incomes. You're having a laugh, right?

Someone remind me, what was the last thing this Govt wanted folk to voluntary sign up to, only that time it cost €100.

What did they do then with the folk who registered, and what ultimately happened the cash used on sign ups and the database that followed?

Endas days are numbered.

dxhound2005

Banjo String wrote: »

Extra sweetener on water charges you say?

What's this now?

€100 off a bill I won't be paying anyway, and you only get it if you sign up and register (with your PPS number) oh, and the ones who would benefit from it most, don't actually qualify for it due to their low incomes. You're having a laugh, right?

Someone remind me, what was the last thing this Govt wanted folk to voluntary sign up to, only that time it cost €100.

What did they do then with the folk who registered, and what ultimately happened the cash used on sign ups and the database that followed?

Endas days are numbered.

So how many days has he left? I have waited for Enda's demise as predicted here since 2011. It's like waiting for the end of the world when the End Times loonies get going.

gladrags

irishfeen wrote: »

Its absolutely ridiculous to think water charges will sink this government - the measures announced in the budget will be enough to get the government out of jail with the vast majority.

Like it or not but water charges are here to stay - Sinn Fein's economic policy will be found out in the run up to the next general election (FG, FF, Labour & the private sector unions will tear them apart) and you will see labour, Fianna Fail and in particular Fine Gael doing well at the next GE - FG remember are consistently the most supported party over the last 3 years in the polls and they have a mandate to introduce these charges. This weeks budget was very well received among the vast majority - people can try say it wasn't but among the vast majority it was and the extra sweetener on water charges was politically very clever.

The vast majority did not vote for them,and the numbers that did have,dwindled.

Labour at best ,will get back to their average.

Realistically, there are several possibilities for the next gov.

This government will fall,based on all indicators.

dxhound2005

gladrags wrote: »

The vast majority did not vote for them,and the numbers that did have,dwindled.

Labour at best ,will get back to their average.

Realistically, there are several possibilities for the next gov.

This government will fall,based on all indicators.

A reversal of the 1997 to 2007 trend when Bertie achieved three in a row and became the second longest serving Taoiseach after Dev. That was the time when the multitudes should have been out on the streets protesting against the policies which were destroying the economy.