superlevy 2015

keep going

20silkcut wrote: »

I hope timaay is right and I am wide of the mark. But all I can say is for most of the 35 years of my life dairy farming was a tough game with tighter than tight margins definitely when I think back to my fathers time back in the 80's.
The current era is a real golden period .
And now a seismic shift next April.

i agree with some of you sentiment but i dont see as a complete doomsday and heres the controversal one im happy with how the price of milk has gone recently.the falling price coming off the highs will hopefully discourage people who may have gone milking typically the type of lads who rent land according to what the going rate is in the area not what their calculator tells them.the bottom line is the fellas that are to do well are the fellas who dont spend money foolishly, mind their cows and the land and know what makes them money and what dosent and that can be different for different set ups..at the risk of repeating my self its the margin that counts not the price.i would ask some of these new entrants would they go at pigs because dairying is nearly becoming that specialised i see margins getting tighter

5live

keep going wrote: »

if 3 days milk being paid a month later is going to have that much effect on your finances you are in big trouble,maybe you should have gone over a few more years and you wouldnt be in such a bad way.by the way you are talking to someone who is very prudent about superlevy.anyway partly guessed i would get this type of response

If my 3 days milk is going to have that much effect on somebody elses finances, perhaps they should be drying off cows earlier?

The repayments are organised to suit my cash flow and are relatively comfortable, but thanks for the advice anyway:)

Tbh, i'm not going to go further into it as each of us has opposing views and neither are willing to compromise on the views expressed.

mahoney_j

frazzledhome wrote: »

Well here we are, best year of grass ever save a few exceptions, milk touching 40 with solids and we can't make the most of it, why? Quota.

We're caught in the worst possible position. A chance to build up a bit of a war chest to carry us through what's predicted to be a low price spring and we can't do it. This is the insanity of the quota system. It can only work if it offers some form of price protection. That's gone since 06 so we now have the worst of both worlds.

Quota is still here and price is falling, so I'll not be convinced that quota can in anyway help price. Quota needs to be removed tomorrow to prevent it doing any more damage

Agree with that mostly and agree to a large extent that quotas going will be a good thing but a counter argument to above frazzled is this.if we had no quotas this last year and a half with our more or less 2 perfect grass growing seasons would the peak of lasted as long.my belief is that it wouldn't and we would of hit a trough many months ago.u could argue that quotas have in fact held prices higher for longer and the market didn't become flooded much earlier than it has.with quotas going we will have the peaks and troughs but the peaks won't last as long and troughs May last longer .......

Deepsouthwest

Dawggone wrote: »

Jeez Silkcut have you lost it completely???
Telling it as it is doesn't go down well around here.



Having said that my opinion is that there is no problem for the Irish farmers in ramping up production. Irish farmers are generally a go ahead lot that have built up a good base from the golden era of quota. A few catastrophic decisions were made by the government that favored the larger dairy farmer. Quota should NEVER have been made a personal asset. A permit to produce milk landed large figures on the good side of the balance sheet of the dairy farmer. Farms were bought on the strength of this. I could go on.....


For me the greatest handicap of the dairy industry are the Coops. They are not prepared for the opportunities to come. At this day and age to be lumping a premium (grass produced) product on the world market with all the other shyte is, to me, a lost cause.
Irish Coops are gladly allowing the farmers to pay for the expansion post quota.
A few smart businessmen would lead the charge on the market with their premium product. Instead they take the lazy and cautious approach and inform the world that Ireland can produce milk for almost nothing. Never focussing on the quality angle. It's just lazy business.
It's in our DNA - beef exported unprocessed and on the hoof, milk products dumped as commodities etc.

Some great points there dawg, think I'll forward it to the national dairy council!

20silkcut

keep going wrote: »

i agree with some of you sentiment but i dont see as a complete doomsday and heres the controversal one im happy with how the price of milk has gone recently.the falling price coming off the highs will hopefully discourage people who may have gone milking typically the type of lads who rent land according to what the going rate is in the area not what their calculator tells them.the bottom line is the fellas that are to do well are the fellas who dont spend money foolishly, mind their cows and the land and know what makes them money and what dosent and that can be different for different set ups..at the risk of repeating my self its the margin that counts not the price.i would ask some of these new entrants would they go at pigs because dairying is nearly becoming that specialised i see margins getting tighter

I don't want to sound like a doomsday freak.
I am not a socialist and am generally right of centre on most issues but I fear uncontrolled capitalist markets they generally leave all the wealth in the hands of the few and leave everyone else destitute.

kowtow

Dawggone wrote: »

Jeez Silkcut have you lost it completely???
Telling it as it is doesn't go down well around here.


For me the greatest handicap of the dairy industry are the Coops. They are not prepared for the opportunities to come. At this day and age to be lumping a premium (grass produced) product on the world market with all the other shyte is, to me, a lost cause.
Irish Coops are gladly allowing the farmers to pay for the expansion post quota.
A few smart businessmen would lead the charge on the market with their premium product. Instead they take the lazy and cautious approach and inform the world that Ireland can produce milk for almost nothing. Never focussing on the quality angle. It's just lazy business.
It's in our DNA - beef exported unprocessed and on the hoof, milk products dumped as commodities etc.

Exactly.

As someone reminded me, for a country ruled by cows - where are the leather goods? Where (until some recent and notable exceptions) the cheese? And, riddled as we are with small family farms, slurry & grass - where are the organics?

I sometimes think we are only comfortable when we find the lowest common denominator, and celebrate it.

J.O. Farmer

Dawggone wrote: »

For me the greatest handicap of the dairy industry are the Coops. They are not prepared for the opportunities to come. At this day and age to be lumping a premium (grass produced) product on the world market with all the other shyte is, to me, a lost cause.
Irish Coops are gladly allowing the farmers to pay for the expansion post quota.
A few smart businessmen would lead the charge on the market with their premium product. Instead they take the lazy and cautious approach and inform the world that Ireland can produce milk for almost nothing. Never focussing on the quality angle. It's just lazy business.
It's in our DNA - beef exported unprocessed and on the hoof, milk products dumped as commodities etc.

I could be lynched for this but why does grass produced=premium. Grass produced is cheaper. Grass produced is also natural in that cows left to roam won't be getting grain. Grass produced is a nice image but in reality is the milk or beef any better.
By better I mean tastier or additional health benefits or some other way that it could be measured or judged from a sample without the marketing.
Perhaps I've given the reasons that grass produced=premium in that it's all about marketing and image. The fact that something is natural doesn't make it better. There are examples of things that are natural but will kill you.
By the way it was a good post dawg and as someone else said it should be sent to the national dairy council. I'm not disagreeing with what you say it's just something that I wonder about. I hear people saying grass produced=premium but just wonder is it marketing or is there anything more to it.

Dawggone

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I could be lynched for this but why does grass produced=premium. Grass produced is cheaper. Grass produced is also natural in that cows left to roam won't be getting grain. Grass produced is a nice image but in reality is the milk or beef any better.
By better I mean tastier or additional health benefits or some other way that it could be measured or judged from a sample without the marketing.
Perhaps I've given the reasons that grass produced=premium in that it's all about marketing and image. The fact that something is natural doesn't make it better. There are examples of things that are natural but will kill you.
By the way it was a good post dawg and as someone else said it should be sent to the national dairy council. I'm not disagreeing with what you say it's just something that I wonder about. I hear people saying grass produced=premium but just wonder is it marketing or is there anything more to it.

You've answered your own question. It's all about perception. Most of the worlds dairy is produced from grains, so if you have a product that is perceived to be natural and healthier then run with it for goodness sake!
Dairy farmers in the mountainous regions of France are getting 52cpl for milk as its believed to be a healthier product. Pure bull really but it must be seen as a marketing triumph.

It's all about marketing and branding. Do you think that all the products on the supermarket shelves are the "best" that money can buy??? Definitely not.
They are the products that are marketed and branded the best.
Christ why should Irish Coop's lump their products into "yellow pack" markets with the rest of the shyte?? Laziness.
Instead they stand on a world stage bragging that Irish farmers can produce for "free" and will continue to do so no matter what happens. In other words continuity of supply and cost effectiveness are the marketing buzz words of the Irish Coop's. Major lost opportunity.

Timmaay

+1, just look at Switzerland! Hugely inefficient system, but they get a big premium for their products as they market it extremely well.

kowtow

Timmaay wrote: »

+1, just look at Switzerland! Hugely inefficient system, but they get a big premium for their products as they market it extremely well.

There is an exception in the case of Switzerland and the more mountainous regions in France - especially for Cheese production.

There is no question that the taste of fermented rations comes through in the final product - hence the total ban on pain of death of feeding Silage in the Swiss Alps... there is also a good deal of variety in the individual grasses from season to season and meadow to meadow, which comes through in the finished product.

Some cheeses are more susceptible than others, however - I'm not sure whether silage feeding or maize feeding has any impact on a strong cheddar for example - watch this space.

For the most part though, it's perception - although there is no reason why consumers should not prefer to pay for free range milk in the same way that they do for free range eggs, should they choose to.

keep going

Waste of time sending anything to ndc, I presume its the idb you mean.the ndc should be abolished as its role could be easily delt with the idb.as for the grass based advantage in marketing, yes its very real but it all comes down to wether the purchasing company decides to use it or not. Irish dairy product is sold in two ways , some is sold through direct marketing as in kerrygold butter, dubliner cheese,pilgrims choice etc wheras the larger volumes are done on contracts with various companies and retailers.these contracts are typically price based and while lower margin they have lowercosts associated with them as well.branded and niche products have higher margins but if you want to go down that route better be prepared to open the wallet as building the brand and the image costs alot of money and does carry some risks aswell.you would hope that the grass image and the research work that shows it lower carbon footprint would help to swing deals but I wouldnt be expectin much higher margins on the strength of it.one other point , quotas biggest legacey is the archaic processing structure in ireland and the healthiest thing to happen lately is movement of suppliers with stratroy and the potential shake up in arrabawn, for too long managers and boards were secure in the knowledge that nobody was going nowhere

Dawggone

keep going wrote: »

Waste of time sending anything to ndc, I presume its the idb you mean.the ndc should be abolished as its role could be easily delt with the idb.as for the grass based advantage in marketing, yes its very real but it all comes down to wether the purchasing company decides to use it or not. Irish dairy product is sold in two ways , some is sold through direct marketing as in kerrygold butter, dubliner cheese,pilgrims choice etc wheras the larger volumes are done on contracts with various companies and retailers.these contracts are typically price based and while lower margin they have lowercosts associated with them as well.branded and niche products have higher margins but if you want to go down that route better be prepared to open the wallet as building the brand and the image costs alot of money and does carry some risks aswell.you would hope that the grass image and the research work that shows it lower carbon footprint would help to swing deals but I wouldnt be expectin much higher margins on the strength of it

Question. Research and development??

Where is it? What Coop's are the innovators??

A very good friend of mine from Uni days got a job in Moorepark as a research scientist. She did invaluable work on "rennet"(?) for cheese (I think?) production. Then she was the leader in the country inventing butter spreads.
She is now working in the Uni of Wisconsin on dairy research because the powers that be decided it was better to make the staff redundant and lease out the premises on a daily rate to the Coop's. Pure genius.

Whatever you may think of the Frogs they are one of the biggest exporters in the world of processed foods. Add value. Simples.

5live

Dawggone wrote: »

Question. Research and development??

Where is it? What Coop's are the innovators??

A very good friend of mine from Uni days got a job in Moorepark as a research scientist. She did invaluable work on "rennet"(?) for cheese (I think?) production. Then she was the leader in the country inventing butter spreads.
She is now working in the Uni of Wisconsin on dairy research because the powers that be decided it was better to make the staff redundant and lease out the premises on a daily rate to the Coop's. Pure genius.

Whatever you may think of the Frogs they are one of the biggest exporters in the world of processed foods. Add value. Simples.

R&D is a very costly exercise with a minimum recommended spend of over 5% of turnover to achieve anything worthwhile. We would only have 3 processors with a spend in R&D that would be large enough to get good results. Not until we have 3-4 processors in total and spending that kind of money will anything worthwhile be achieved.

But the smaller processors are very reluctant to merge between farmers looking to preserve their independence(read lower prices) and management and workers looking to keep their jobs. There is a hell of a lot of consolidation that needs to be done, and quickly, before any progress in value-added is achieved.

Also, the majority of farmers are committed to seasonal production and there would be a huge need for a flattening of the milk production curve to supply the raw materials.

Tbf, there is a lot of added-value already in the processing sector but it isn't appearing on the shelves to consumers but attracting buyers for products to add to other ingredients eg. protein products to be added to food products by Kerry and protein for sport drinks by Glanbia.

keep going

Dawggone wrote: »

Question. Research and development??

Where is it? What Coop's are the innovators??
R
A very good friend of mine from Uni days got a job in Moorepark as a research scientist. She did invaluable work on "rennet"(?) for cheese (I think?) production. Then she was the leader in the country inventing butter spreads.
She is now working in the Uni of Wisconsin on dairy research because the powers that be decided it was better to make the staff redundant and lease out the premises on a daily rate to the Coop's. Pure genius.

Whatever you may think of the Frogs they are one of the biggest exporters in the world of processed foods. Add value. Simples.

And what are the processor s that are renting that space doing, they are doing research as well .carbery use the moorpark facilities as well as havi g their own but r and d is a normal part of being in business and usally just about maintains your postion with the odd big break but that could be one big sucess a decade in the whole industry.I have seen the various ideas that have been worked on in carbery over the years and the sucess rate is much higher on ideas that tweak a process or product rather than new products.the other problem with innovation is its advantage is short lived and needs to be constantly evolved.that said if there are farmers that are going to get a kick up the whole over the next few years , theres a few processor s that need an almighty one but its about 20 years too late

Dawggone

5live wrote: »

R&D is a very costly exercise with a minimum recommended spend of over 5% of turnover to achieve anything worthwhile. We would only have 3 processors with a spend in R&D that would be large enough to get good results. Not until we have 3-4 processors in total and spending that kind of money will anything worthwhile be achieved.

But the smaller processors are very reluctant to merge between farmers looking to preserve their independence(read lower prices) and management and workers looking to keep their jobs. There is a hell of a lot of consolidation that needs to be done, and quickly, before any progress in value-added is achieved.

Also, the majority of farmers are committed to seasonal production and there would be a huge need for a flattening of the milk production curve to supply the raw materials.

Tbf, there is a lot of added-value already in the processing sector but it isn't appearing on the shelves to consumers but attracting buyers for products to add to other ingredients eg. protein products to be added to food products by Kerry and protein for sport drinks by Glanbia.

Good points all.
Probably Kerry have the most experience when it comes to ingredients as they are now world players in that market. I think that milk is now only 5% of turnover in Kerry group.

The point I'm trying to make is that Coop's in Ireland are reactive, not proactive. They have known for quite a while that there is going to be a big increase in production. So what do they do?
They look to NZ and say that they will follow that model to a T.
Export to China and hope that the Kiwi's have a couple of botulism scares. That is fair lazy when there are 400 million plus wealthy consumers on the doorstep to be exploited.

As a wheat grower I would prefer to be selling wheat to make bread than pig feed.

There are too many guys on here that reckon the sun rises in Ballyragget and sets in Belview.

kowtow

I'm always a bit wary when I hear the word "innovation" around the food business... and this week I see it time and time again.

Farmers have been making - and more importantly selling - value added products from milk for centuries. When they have needed to, they have grouped together in co-ops to do it better. It doesn't only have to be about endless bells & whistles and new protein drinks and ingredients, new foods for new food consumers and hundreds of millions in investment - it's about producing premium food products of truly international quality, which are unique to our (very different, and globally recognisable) regions.

Where I lived in Switzerland every family on the mountain produced its own cheese, from very small herds. Every cheese was individually recognisable and some were internationally famous. Out of 20 or 30 herds in the village no producer was large enough to warrant a milk truck collection - churns every morning to the molkerei [co-op] where the remnant was made into local cheese, cream, liquid milk. Every one of those families with 10, 20, 30 cows was able to pay their way, to afford the (not inexpensive) cost of swiss education for their children etc. etc. etc.

No two countries are the same, but perhaps sometimes we forget that quality - and even innovation - come from the bottom up.

5live

Dawggone wrote: »

Good points all.
Probably Kerry have the most experience when it comes to ingredients as they are now world players in that market. I think that milk is now only 5% of turnover in Kerry group.

The point I'm trying to make is that Coop's in Ireland are reactive, not proactive. They have known for quite a while that there is going to be a big increase in production. So what do they do?
They look to NZ and say that they will follow that model to a T.
Export to China and hope that the Kiwi's have a couple of botulism scares. That is fair lazy when there are 400 million plus wealthy consumers on the doorstep to be exploited.

As a wheat grower I would prefer to be selling wheat to make bread than pig feed.

There are too many guys on here that reckon the sun rises in Ballyragget and sets in Belview.

That 5% masks the massive importance of milk to Kerry. They use that 5% to produce a huge value-added which is attributed to the PLC whereas, in reality, the produce is purchased at commodity price and farmers are paid commodity price for a unique raw material, grassfed milk. Granted, PLC dividends pay for the value added, but that should be viewed as an off-farm income source, imo.

On the co-ops being lazy and ignoring the wealthy consumer on its doorstep, its true up to a point. Again, scale of operation has a huge bearing on the R&D spend(amalgamation needed) and also experience of producing what consumers want. The intervention market did a huge service for farmers in providing a base price for milk but it also did a huge disservice to processors because it provided a safe haven for produce and reduced the incentive for processors to look for new markets and products to reach those markets. It would take over a decade, probably longer, to incentivise the management and researchers to go out and investigate those markets and produce a product or products to service those markets.

And yes, this forum is hugely Glanbia centered but that reflects the predominately eastern catchment posting on here. You would have to go elsewhere to get views and information on other processors.

milkprofit

5live wrote: »

That 5% masks the massive importance of milk to Kerry. They use that 5% to produce a huge value-added which is attributed to the PLC whereas, in reality, the produce is purchased at commodity price and farmers are paid commodity price for a unique raw material, grassfed milk. Granted, PLC dividends pay for the value added, but that should be viewed as an off-farm income source, imo.

On the co-ops being lazy and ignoring the wealthy consumer on its doorstep, its true up to a point. Again, scale of operation has a huge bearing on the R&D spend(amalgamation needed) and also experience of producing what consumers want. The intervention market did a huge service for farmers in providing a base price for milk but it also did a huge disservice to processors because it provided a safe haven for produce and reduced the incentive for processors to look for new markets and products to reach those markets. It would take over a decade, probably longer, to incentivise the management and researchers to go out and investigate those markets and produce a product or products to service those markets.

And yes, this forum is hugely Glanbia centered but that reflects the predominately eastern catchment posting on here. You would have to go elsewhere to get views and information on other processors.

The problem ! If glanbia found a food derived from milk the only way they have of getting it to consumer in large quantites is through the supermarkets who would be looking for 50/ cent margin

freedominacup

kowtow wrote: »

There is an exception in the case of Switzerland and the more mountainous regions in France - especially for Cheese production.

There is no question that the taste of fermented rations comes through in the final product - hence the total ban on pain of death of feeding Silage in the Swiss Alps... there is also a good deal of variety in the individual grasses from season to season and meadow to meadow, which comes through in the finished product.

Some cheeses are more susceptible than others, however - I'm not sure whether silage feeding or maize feeding has any impact on a strong cheddar for example - watch this space.

For the most part though, it's perception - although there is no reason why consumers should not prefer to pay for free range milk in the same way that they do for free range eggs, should they choose to.

I know I'm being lazy but do the Swiss export much of their output? A lot easier to niche market small volumes.

kowtow

freedominacup wrote: »

I know I'm being lazy but do the Swiss export much of their output? A lot easier to niche market small volumes.

A good deal of the more famous cheeses, Gruyere, Emmenthal, Tomme etc, Reblochon... many more I am sure I am thinking locally.

What seriously impressed me was the way they handle logistics. Every supermarket - even big chains - carries local milk as well as 'national' milk not to mention cheeses, yoghurts etc.

On the other hand perhaps they take it a little bit *too* seriously - the local cheese chief (the big cheese? - think head of the co-op) in our molkerei once 'accidentally' labelled cheese from a village 4 or 5km away as our own premium mountain cheese and sent it down the valley to a supermarket.

He was arrested. Lucky to get away with a fraud charge and a suspended sentence.

keep going

I remember reading about A1 andA 2 milk a years back, supposed to be suitable for lactose intolerance people but nothing ever seem to come of it, anybody come across it lately

trixi2011

Managed an a2 herd in Nz utill June . Got 39c a kg bonus when they used it for a2 production. 9c a Kg ms retainer on all milk solids produced . A2 milk I supplied was used to make baby milk for lactose intolerant babies .

Markcheese

keep going wrote: »

I remember reading about A1 andA 2 milk a years back, supposed to be suitable for lactose intolerance people but nothing ever seem to come of it, anybody come across it lately

I have a few customers who look for a2 cheese... I haven't got access to any though ... A lot of the older breeds of dairy cows are supposedly mainly a2 .. ( Kerry's, dairy shorthorn, guernsey ,some montbelliards.. )

C0N0R

Markcheese wrote: »

I have a few customers who look for a2 cheese... I haven't got access to any though ... A lot of the older breeds of dairy cows are supposedly mainly a2 .. ( Kerry's, dairy shorthorn, guernsey ,some montbelliards.. )

DNA testing can be done to see what cows are A2

frazzledhome

Big fine on the way

Greengrass1

frazzledhome wrote: »

Big fine on the way

Is that your missus??
Wow.

frazzledhome

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Is that your missus??
Wow.

Yip on school run

lefthooker

frazzledhome wrote: »

Yip on school run

Great shape, great showing. What's her EBI?

Timmaay

frazzledhome wrote: »

Yip on school run

I typed in a word which got auto corrected to milk!

lefthooker

Timmaay wrote: »

I typed in a word which got auto corrected to milk!

You mustn't type that word often then. Mine doesn't correct for it anymore:D