Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Context is everything. Considering their land is occupied and blockaded and Israel are aggressively stealing and annexing large parts of it on a weekly basis how do you expect them to react? They have no army, no airforce and no navy. Even then, the rockets they do fire are pretty much ineffectual and can in no way be compared to a nuclear-equipped state hammering a captive population.

The Palestinians have little or no means to respond to their colonisation.

Context as well when claiming Israel deliberately murder children. There are baddies in all conflicts. Do you claim that the policy of Israel is to kill indiscriminately? Not to select areas that they believe are housing Hamas folks? Hamas folks who would sooner cut their throat as look at them? There will be collateral damage and sad sites, but to make out that the policy of the Israelis is to kill ANY Palestinian they can is not helpful.

walshb

karma_ wrote: »

But no one here is supporting them. It's the innocent Palestinian victims that people are showing some compassion to. It's the disproportionate reaction by Israel that is the problem and a cursory glance at the figures killed would confirm that. The Hamas attacks have killed exactly one person which would indicate to me that having fired something like 1200 rockets they are pretty useless and Israel have the means to defend against them. That being the case why do they bomb such a densely populated place like Gaza?

So your argument is at best disingenuous and at worst sinister.

I agree with this. Israel seem far too heavy handed in their retaliation.

brandon_flowers

War is a dirty game and I don't think anyone is condoning Hamas rocket attacks which of course target anything they can hit (which is usually nothing to be honest).

The reason for the majority being in the anti-Israel brigade is that the masses just go with whatever the media report and it is never debated. In fact I would guess that less than 1% of boards.ie are discussing this topic. So the people that want to discuss it will arm themselves with the facts and come to debate rather than just follow the media slanted reports. If I was living in the ME again I'm sure I would have a more pro-Palestine tone in the news I would see rather than the more pro-Israeli news we get in Europe.

BobbyPropane

It's a very difficult situation to assess and I personally think that outsiders who choose to support either the Israelis or Palestinians are foolish. What is Israel supposed to do about the constant rain of rockets ? Taking away the small number of deaths it is still a nuisance to the Israeli state and they have to spend a lot of money on their defence systems as a result, money which could be used to help the people. That said it is entirely wrong of them to bomb Palestine the way they are doing and it is actually a stupid thing to do if they wish to gain international support and pressure on their side, which is the only way in my eyes of solving this conflict.

Now as for the Palestinians, you have a situation where they are using civilian structures including schools as is being reported today, to store and fire rockets constantly at Israel. I don't think anyone here can disagree that this is heartless and completely uncalled for, and it is a massive contributor to the large amount of deaths in the Gaza strip.

I don't see a solution, but I also don't see a good side to either the Israelis or Palestinians. If the Palestinians had the weapons they would choose to obliterate the Israeli state and if there was no international pressure on Israel they as well would choose to obliterate the Palestinians and rest of the Arabs for that matter.

QuantumP

comongethappy wrote: »

Very true.

Does that make supporting its indiscriminate attacks on israeli citizens right though?

No, not at all. Every civilian murdered should be mourned in equal measure but this is not an equal war. Its a genocide.
Naturally, the side that kills 200 civilians will face greater condemnation than the side that kills 1*. Its really very simple.

*(Since the beginning of the IDF's assault "Operation Protective Edge")

comongethappy

karma_ wrote: »

But no one here is supporting them.

if only

Nodin wrote: »

the Israelis are the aggressors. Any resistance to such is entirely justified.

(and thats not even considering the posts by the outright anti-semites who have been banned)

karma_ wrote: »

So your argument is at worst sinister.

My argument is that no violence should occur.

I can respect that is a hard one to grasp, but there are some of us (few it seems) that condemn violence of all sides.

To call someone who holds this opinion sinister, is frankly moronic.

bumper234

walshb wrote: »

Context as well when claiming Israel deliberately murder children. There are baddies in all conflicts. Do you claim that the policy of Israel is to kill indiscriminately? Not to select areas that they believe are housing Hamas folks? Hamas folks who would sooner cut their throat as look at them? There will be collateral damage and sad sites, but to make out that the policy of the Israelis is to kill ANY Palestinian they can is not helpful.

Where were these hamas folks yesterday when those children were targeted? How com none of the (many?) journalists who witnessed the murder of these kids saw "hamas folk"? Why have Israel not shown proof that there were terrorists there? Where they taking a break and catching a few rays? :rolleyes:

Elmer Blooker

walshb wrote: »

I agree with this. Israel seem far too heavy handed in their retaliation.

This is nothing new. A Hezbollah ambush in 2006 killed three Israeli soldiers - these criminal acts against the entire population of Lebanon was Israel's response.

http://www.google.ie/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=destruction+of+lebanon+2006&oe=UTF-8&gws_rd=cr&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=qOrHU4C2KK2A7QaQ3IGoCw&ved=0CDYQsAQ

wes

comongethappy wrote: »

(and thats not even considering the posts by the outright anti-semites who have been banned)

The words used was resistance, which is actually perfectly legal under international law, against an occupying power. The issue is that Hamas are indiscriminate, but its perfectly legal for Hamas to target the IDF, and for the IDF to target Hamas militants. The Palestinians have every right to defend themselves from the violent Israeli occupation.

Scofflaw

comongethappy wrote: »

if only

(and thats not even considering the posts by the outright anti-semites who have been banned)




My argument is that no violence should occur.

I can respect that is a hard one to grasp, but there are some of us (few it seems) that condemn violence of all sides.

To call someone who holds this opinion sinister, is frankly moronic.

Two points:

1. "To call someone who holds this opinion sinister, is frankly moronic" - not acceptable.

2. "thats not even considering the posts by the outright anti-semites". If people are demonstrably anti-Semites, they get banned. Your use of "outright", however, suggests that those arguing against Israel are anti-Semites, just less "outright" ones. If I see this tactic again, from anybody, it will earn them a ban.

moderately,
Scofflaw

walshb

bumper234 wrote: »

Where were these hamas folks yesterday when those children were targeted? How com none of the (many?) journalists who witnessed the murder of these kids saw "hamas folk"? Why have Israel not shown proof that there were terrorists there? Where they taking a break and catching a few rays? :rolleyes:

If Israel deliberately targeted the children there, and not what they thought was terrorist adults, or Hamas, then Israel are bang out of order.

Israel claim that they did not target them:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-crisis-israeli-government-spokesperson-insists-it-does-not-target-civilians-after-four-boys-are-killed-by-shelling-9611119.html

comongethappy

wes wrote: »

its perfectly legal for Hamas to target the IDF, and for the IDF to target Hamas militants.

i agree.

but I still condemn both for not finding a peacefull solution & continuing their futile violence & Israel especially for making viability for Palestine all the harder.

bumper234

walshb wrote: »

If Israel deliberately targeted the children there, and not what they thought was terrorist adults, or Hamas, then Israel are bang out of order.

Israel claim that they did not target them:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-crisis-israeli-government-spokesperson-insists-it-does-not-target-civilians-after-four-boys-are-killed-by-shelling-9611119.html

It was an open beach


Kids playing football


Gunner could see exactly who he was targeting.


But let's believe the Israeli propaganda machine.

tayto lover

walshb wrote: »

I wouldn't take too much notice of the wave of people (and celebs) jumping on the bandwagon of support for Palestine. Most wouldn't even be able to point out Israel/Palestine on a map. Twitter and FB and instant news has made a lot of people 'politicians' lately.

What matters is that they know right from wrong.
They reported and commented on the horrific incident of murder.

tayto lover

walshb wrote: »

Difficult to know what side to believe. I find it very difficult to believe that the Israelis are knowingly and deliberately firing into areas where they know children are.

Even with mindsets like this?
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07...inian-mothers/

tayto lover

walshb wrote: »

If Israel deliberately targeted the children there, and not what they thought was terrorist adults, or Hamas, then Israel are bang out of order.

Israel claim that they did not target them:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-crisis-israeli-government-spokesperson-insists-it-does-not-target-civilians-after-four-boys-are-killed-by-shelling-9611119.html

Yeah right :rolleyes:

FTA69

walshb wrote: »

Context as well when claiming Israel deliberately murder children. There are baddies in all conflicts. Do you claim that the policy of Israel is to kill indiscriminately? Not to select areas that they believe are housing Hamas folks? Hamas folks who would sooner cut their throat as look at them? There will be collateral damage and sad sites, but to make out that the policy of the Israelis is to kill ANY Palestinian they can is not helpful.

I never said they set out to kill as many as possible, but the Israeli military have often deliberately targeted civilians who posed no threat to them whatsoever. What else would you call shelling four small children playing on a beach and bombarding the survivors as they ran away? How else would you refer to the numerous children and teenagers who have been shot?

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

I never said they set out to kill as many as possible, but the Israeli military have often deliberately targeted civilians who posed no threat to them whatsoever. What else would you call shelling four small children playing on a beach and bombarding the survivors as they ran away? How else would you refer to the numerous children and teenagers who have been shot?

Israel claim that the children were not targeted!

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

Israel claim that the children were not targeted!

Given what I posted earlier, and the way they were killed, how likely does that seem?

tayto lover

walshb wrote: »

Israel claim that the children were not targeted!

So how do they explain their deaths?
It's murder and nothing else.

wes

walshb wrote: »

Israel claim that the children were not targeted!

They may as well claim that the moon is made out of cheese, as both claims are both about as believable.

The IDF have been caught out in this case, as the media were present and clearly saw what happened. The IDF have been caught out numerous time murdering civilians. Before the kidnap of the 3 settler teenagers, the IDF murdered 2 Palestinians teenagers, and it was also caught on camera.

The IDFs credibility is exactly 0, as these murders only scratch the surface.

walshb

The media weren't in the decision making process. Just because the media witnessed the deaths does not at all mean that the strikes were deliberately targeting those children. Israel have said that the deaths were a tragedy. They said that they did not target the children. Self explanatory. Yes, I do find it difficult to believe that Israel decided to waste missiles or bombs on 3-4 innocent children.

I have no issue agreeing that Israel are too heavy handed here. But some of you are taking it to the extreme.

walshb

tayto lover wrote: »

So how do they explain their deaths?
It's murder and nothing else.

Their deaths are easily explained. How do you explain your certainty that Israel deliberately targeted the children?

walshb

walshb wrote: »

The media weren't in the decision making process. Just because the media witnessed the deaths does not at all mean that the strikes were deliberately targeting those children. Israel have said that the deaths were a tragedy. They said that they did not target the children. Self explanatory. Yes, I do find it difficult to believe that Israel decided to waste missiles or bombs on 3-4 innocent children.

So you think the Israelis who fired at the beach were just that incompetent?

BlaasForRafa

Deleted User wrote: »

So you think the Israelis who fired at the beach were just that incompetent?

Pretty much yeah. I highly doubt whether they purposely went out to kill children. they probably had intelligence that Hamas were up to something in that area and the intelligence was wrong. Occams razor would suggest incompetence to be the more obvious explanation.

tayto lover

walshb wrote: »

Their deaths are easily explained. How do you explain your certainty that Israel deliberately targeted the children?

It's not the first time they deliberately targeted children, the elderly, the sick etc. This is their mindset again for you -

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07...inian-mothers/

The Israelis could put out propaganda videos the other day of them aborting a strike because there were civilians in the way so how come they didn't abort this time? The only deaths on that beach were the 4 children. It was clearly MURDER.

BlaasForRafa

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Pretty much yeah. I highly doubt whether they purposely went out to kill children. they probably had intelligence that Hamas were up to something in that area and the intelligence was wrong. Occams razor would suggest incompetence to be the more obvious explanation.

So despite the many instances of deliberate targeting of civilians going unpunished despite being proven you still don't buy it?

bumper234

walshb wrote: »

Their deaths are easily explained. How do you explain your certainty that Israel deliberately targeted the children?

So please explain them.

QuantumP

Israel have murdered at least 3 more children today. Accidental, deliberate, at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Either way it must stop.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-strike-kills-three-children-same-gaza-family-374678008

walshb

bumper234 wrote: »

So please explain them.

Accidental, maybe? Due to errors, bad intelligence....