Israel bombs 160 sites in Gaza overnight. Mod Warnings in First Post.

pO1Neil

The Israeli air force bombed 160 targets in Gaza overnight as it pressed a widescale campaign to stop volleys of Palestinian rocket fire, an army official said this morning.
"Overnight, the IDF hit about 160 targets in the Gaza Strip. Over the last two days we attacked a total of about 430 targets," General Moti Almoz told military radio.
It is the second day of a military operation dubbed Operation Protective Edge.
At least 23 people have been killed across Gaza in recent days, Palestinian officials said today.
They said at least 17 civilians, including five children, were among the dead.
On the Israeli side, at least two people were wounded, medics said.
Mr Almoz said the targets included about 120 concealed rocket launchers, ten Hamas command and control centres, among them two homes, and many tunnels.
He said the Islamist movement has been "forced into a corner" and was trying to launch attacks on multiple fronts.
"Last night, Hamas started to unveil its surprises," he said referring to an attempted attack by sea and the barrage of long-range rockets fired at cities as far away as Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and the northern coastal city of Hadera, which is more than 100km from Gaza.
"Hamas was trying to surprise and find the weak points and penetrate Israel by sea or through tunnels; these incidents were thwarted very successfully by the IDF," he said.
The rocket fire continued early today, with army radio reporting that at least five projectiles from Gaza were shot down over Tel Aviv and its surrounds by Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system.
Hamas's armed wing the Ezzedine Al-Qassam Brigades claimed the rocket fire, saying it had launched four M75 rockets at Israel's commercial capital.
Mr Almoz said, meanwhile, that an incident at Kerem Shalom, location of the main goods crossing between Israel and southern Gaza, was still "ongoing".
Interior Minister Gidon Saar, a member of security cabinet, said the military had been given orders to "significantly" expand the campaign.
"We didn't limit the campaign in terms of time, in fact we ordered the IDF to significantly broaden the attacks on Hamas and to do everything to return the quiet and ensure a significant blow to Hamas and the terror organisations in Gaza," he told the radio.
Israel, he said, was going into the widening operation with its "eyes very much open".
"We're ready for every possibility, including a ground operation if necessary, although it's not going to be the first step.
"But there is a readiness for that and that's why we ordered the call-up of 40,000 reserve soldiers," he said.
Israel would not stop until it had dealt a decisive blow to the militant groups operating out of Gaza, he said.
"Hamas is firing, and it must first of all stop, but we won't be satisfied with just that without a very, very significant and broad blow to Hamas and the entire terror infrastructure in Gaza."
Jordan calls for immediate halt to air strikes
Meanwhile, Jordan, one of just two Arab countries to have signed a peace treaty with Israel, has demanded an immediate halt to deadly Israeli air raids against Gaza.
Government spokesman Mohammad Momani said that the raids that killed more than 20 Palestinians in purported response to rocket fire that has killed no one in Israel were "barbaric".

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0709/629478-gaza-israel/

Now I'm no big fan of rockets being lobbed into any city. But can you imagine if Britain flattened I don't no say Dundalk after the IRA bombing of Manchester or launched 160 strikes on suspected IRA men's homes after the Brightom bombing? Crazy sh!t.

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comongethappy

pO1Neil wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0709/629478-gaza-israel/

Now I'm no big fan of rockets being lobbed into any city. But can you imagine if Britain flattened I don't no say Dundalk after the IRA bombing of Manchester or launched 160 strikes on suspected IRA men's homes after the Brightom bombing? Crazy sh!t.

Its not really equivalent tbf.

More relative, would be if rockets were launched from a truck parked in carrickmacross tesco..... Then Britain bombing that car park.

The IDF know from satellite & high level recon flights where the launch sites are.

Then they flatten them.

Problem is, the guys who launched the rockets have probably already moved on & its a pointless hit.

Harry Palmr

Hamas should stop launching missiles at various Israeli cities, that would help.

SeanW

Yeah, funny that. Israel evacuated the place and left it to the Palestinians in the hope of buying peace. What did they get? Hamas, who turned the whole place into a military base to fire missiles into Israel.

I wonder about a couple of things, perhaps Nodin etc. can help me out here:

1. What means do those critical of Israel suggest they do to prevent these rocket attacks?
2. Why do you think it will be any different if Israel leaves the West Bank as well?

pO1Neil

comongethappy wrote: »

Iquivalets not really ent tbf.

More relative, would be if rockets were launched from a truck parked in carrickmacross tesco..... Then Britain bombing that car park.

The IDF know from satellite & high level recon flights where the launch sites are.

Then they flatten them.

Problem is, the guys who launched the rockets have probably already moved on & its a pointless hit.

That's true the IRA were a much bigger threat to the British state than Hamas are to the Israeli state.

brimal

Great to see Iron Dome working well so far.

comongethappy

brimal wrote: »

Great to see Iron Dome working well so far.

Indeed, though its a shame Israel has to spend so much money shooting down a $100 cold war era unguided rocket.

pO1Neil

brimal wrote: »

Great to see Iron Dome working well so far.

It's great for Israel civilian. Gaza civilians don't have anything to protect them & several kids in Gaza died last night.

comongethappy

pO1Neil wrote: »

It's great for Israel civilian. Gaza civilians don't have anything to protect them & several kids in Gaza died last night.

No one condones that.

Though when a truck with a rack of katyushas on the back parks on a street to unleash its salvo, it can't be surprising that the IDF will hit the location.

Perhaps collateral damage might be less if Hamas would refrain from hiding in civilian streets.

FTA69

SeanW wrote: »

Yeah, funny that. Israel evacuated the place and left it to the Palestinians in the hope of buying peace. What did they get? Hamas, who turned the whole place into a military base to fire missiles into Israel.

I wonder about a couple of things, perhaps Nodin etc. can help me out here:

1. What means do those critical of Israel suggest they do to prevent these rocket attacks?
2. Why do you think it will be any different if Israel leaves the West Bank as well?

This is such nonsense. The reason Hamas are firing rockets into Israel is as a result of Israel's mass incursions into the West Bank over the killings of three of illegal settlers in Hebron. Israel for some reason has blamed Hamas exclusively for this and attacked the organisation.

Your contention that Israel is interested in any lasting peace is also a complete fallacy when you consider the fact that they are aggressively expanding illegal settlements into the West Bank in contravention of international law. On top of this they continue to ring East Jerusalem with illegal settlements and are attempting to slowly expunge the Arab population in the city.

The Palestinians are a defeated people, they have nothing. They are a poorly equipped people with ineffective rockets gesturing against an army with F-15 fighter jets, Apache helicopter gunships and Jericho missiles. Only a short while ago seven Palestinian children were blow to pieces by that same army but as usual the lives of Israelis are ranked far higher here in the west. The Palestinians are desperate for a state of their own and to reach some sort of compromise; Israel on the other hand is simply railroading over them with a view to destroying any future viability of a Palestinian state.

comongethappy

FTA69 wrote: »

they have nothing. They are a poorly equipped people with ineffective rockets gesturing

Good post.

However, Hamas are neither defeated, nor armed with bottle-rockets.

I think its unfair to expect Israel do nothing when attacked by hundreds of rockets..... That scale of attack isn't a 'gesture'.

Retaliation is inevitable, though questions can be asked about proportionality.

Mal-Adjusted

SeanW wrote: »

[*]What means do those critical of Israel suggest they do to prevent these rocket attacks?

They could actively engage in peace talks and mean it, instead of sabotaging them at every opportunity

Manach

From what I understand, this latest series of incidents had to do with the murder both of 3 Israeli youths and a 1 Palestinian one. Unfortunitly it seems does directly responsiblity for these might escape (AFAIK for the latter police have arrested some people) whilst it is the non-combatants which get hammered

SeanW

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

They could actively engage in peace talks and mean it, instead of sabotaging them at every opportunity

With people who's stated objective is to drive the Jews into the sea?

FTA69

SeanW wrote: »

With people who's stated objective is to drive the Jews into the sea?

Hamas would settle for a two-state solution as much as anyone. They are on the ropes entirely and want to reach a settlement.

Nodin

comongethappy wrote: »

Its not really equivalent tbf.

More relative, would be if rockets were launched from a truck parked in carrickmacross tesco..... Then Britain bombing that car park.

The IDF know from satellite & high level recon flights where the launch sites are.

Then they flatten them.

Problem is, the guys who launched the rockets have probably already moved on & its a pointless hit.

True in as far as it goes, except that many of the strikes are effectively strikes on known hamas members, and whatever persons the Israeli state deems legitmate targets, rather than defensive strikes or attacks in direct retaliation.

comongethappy wrote: »

I think its unfair to expect Israel do nothing when attacked by hundreds of rockets..... That scale of attack isn't a 'gesture'..

As far as I'm aware up to 14 Palestinians were killed this year before the disappearance of the three lads in the west bank. In that light, do you think its "unfair" for Hamas to do nothing?

comongethappy

Nodin wrote: »

As far as I'm aware up to 14 Palestinians were killed this year before the disappearance of the three lads in the west bank. In that light, do you think its "unfair" for Hamas to do nothing?

I think Hamas mentioned in a statement that the abducted & murdered Palestinian youth was the pretext for the current barrages?
(Open to correction though).

As to the 14 deaths you mention, who knows?
Perhaps they were retaliated for by any one of the 450+ rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel so far this year?

FTA69

While I wouldn't be the biggest fan of firing rockets into civilian areas; what Hamas is doing is an inevitable response to the constant siege of Gaza as well as the expansion of settlements into the West Bank. I find this notion of Palestinian "aggression" to be total nonsense; it isn't the Palestinians who are confiscating and illegally annexing parts of Israel. Similarly the death toll from these deadly Qassam rockets stands at 0 while Israel have yet again killed dozens from their arsenal of advanced weaponry.

comongethappy

FTA69 wrote: »

While I wouldn't be the biggest fan of firing rockets into civilian areas; what Hamas is doing is an inevitable response to the constant siege of Gaza as well as the expansion of settlements into the West Bank. I find this notion of Palestinian "aggression" to be total nonsense; it isn't the Palestinians who are confiscating and illegally annexing parts of Israel. Similarly the death toll from these deadly Qassam rockets stands at 0 while Israel have yet again killed dozens from their arsenal of advanced weaponry.

Very true.

But the path to nationhood can only start at the table.... Futile rocket attacks, despite legitimate provocation can only hamper that quest.

They can't defeat Israel, so militarily they are useless & they give succour to the anti-peace factions within Israeli politics.

If Hamas were smart, they would stop making it so easy for the hawks in the Israeli government to reject peace.

FTA69

comongethappy wrote: »

Very true.

But the path to nationhood can only start at the table.... Futile rocket attacks, despite legitimate provocation can only hamper that quest.

They can't defeat Israel, so militarily they are useless & they give succour to the anti-peace factions within Israeli politics.

If Hamas were smart, they would stop making it so easy for the hawks in the Israeli government to reject peace.

I really think you're underestimating the desire of the Israeli establishment to strangle the viability of a Palestinian state out of existence. Realistically, in my view anyway, the only way Israel can be forced to change is through international pressure and that includes a mass boycott of it's goods and a rejection of it's attempts to portray itself as a force for democracy.

wes

comongethappy wrote: »

If Hamas were smart, they would stop making it so easy for the hawks in the Israeli government to reject peace.

Except that in the West Bank, we see Israel is still stealing there land, and still regularly engage in violence, for example 2 Palestinians teenagers were murdered before the kidnap and murder the 3 Israeli teenagers, for example.

Palestinians non-violence gets them nothing from Israel, the settlements still expand with all the violence that entails, and from the rest of the world, its largely ignored that Abbas has gone to great lengths to prevent attacks on Israel, as nothing is ever done to stop Israel constant settlement expansion.

Basically, the Palestinians get no where, regardless whether there violent or not, while Israel is allowed complete impunity in regards to its violence.

Nodin

comongethappy wrote: »

..........

If Hamas were smart, they would stop making it so easy for the hawks in the Israeli government to reject peace.

But Israel aren't interested in peace and have no reason to be. They continue expanding without penalty, and are under no obligation to talk to either Fatah, Hamas or whoever and casualties are minimal. This has been going on for over 40 years now, and the only thing that changes is the specific names mentioned in the excuses. Unless there's consequences for their conduct, this is going to go on until Arab East Jerusalem is repopulated and all the desired parts of the West Bank seized.

comongethappy

Nodin wrote: »

But Israel aren't interested in peace and have no reason to be. They continue expanding without penalty, and are under no obligation to talk to either Fatah, Hamas or whoever and casualties are minimal. This has been going on for over 40 years now, and the only thing that changes is the specific names mentioned in the excuses. Unless there's consequences for their conduct, this is going to go on until Arab East Jerusalem is repopulated and all the desired parts of the West Bank seized.

So violence should continue?

Should Hamas not realise at some point that lobbing rockets isn't going to work?

Personally, I think, all things being equal, the nonviolent route is best.

Nodin

comongethappy wrote: »

So violence should continue?

Should Hamas not realise at some point that lobbing rockets isn't going to work?

Personally, I think, all things being equal, the nonviolent route is best.

The only reason Gaza isn't still being colonised is violence and the threat of it. The West Bank has operated under a Fatah maintained peace for nearly a decade and the only result is a massive expansion of settlements. The non-violent route is blocked, because there is no peaceful method of acting against Israel - sanctions are blocked at the UN and the US uses its weight to block any moves by the EU.

Da Shins Kelly

I read something today that said that the notion of settlements being considered illegal is being challenged. Apparently there isn't any clear-cut laws in place for the West Bank or Gaza because they do not belong to any contracting party so settlements there can't really be considered illegal. Not sure if there's any truth in that.

Nodin

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I read something today that said that the notion of settlements being considered illegal is being challenged. Apparently there isn't any clear-cut laws in place for the West Bank or Gaza because they do not belong to any contracting party so settlements there can't really be considered illegal. Not sure if there's any truth in that.

None. There's all sorts of smoke and mirrors thrown up around the colonisation and at this stage, four decades in, we can safely dismiss any new effort out of hand.

FTA69

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I read something today that said that the notion of settlements being considered illegal is being challenged. Apparently there isn't any clear-cut laws in place for the West Bank or Gaza because they do not belong to any contracting party so settlements there can't really be considered illegal. Not sure if there's any truth in that.

Challenged by whom? The only people contesting that they're not illegal are the Israelis; even the Americans acknowledge that they're illegal like.

Similarly regarding the rockets, there seems to be this notion that Israeli aggression is simply a response of sorts to Palestinian terrorism and that if the crazy fanatics quit with the rockets then everything would be grand. I nearly wouldn't blame people for holding this opinion as it's pretty much rammed down our throats by mainstream media bias all year long. The reality is however, is that it's Israel's occupation of the West Bank and their blatant theft of land and East Jerusalem which is the primary factor here. The Palestinians themselves are desperate for any sort of settlement, and that goes for Hamas too.

Hamas could decommission unilaterally and the Israelis would still push on with its settlement program regardless.

Da Shins Kelly

I think it was the Australian Foreign Affairs minister who said it and said that people shouldn't be calling the settlements illegal. It sounded a bit off to me, but I don't know enough about the topic to really say.

Nodin

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I think it was the Australian Foreign Affairs minister who said it and said that people shouldn't be calling the settlements illegal. It sounded a bit off to me, but I don't know enough about the topic to really say.

Found this. It's a bit "off" to say the least. Vile stuff.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/australia-fm-dont-call-settlements-illegal-under-international-law/

That's what I'd expect on a message board or from the right wing element in the US, tbh. Very suprising.

Manach

My reading, from other sources, is that the legal situation is highly unsettled. There are numerous levels of law: from international, governmental and local which could apply. However as these depend on an executive element, ie Police and Army, some are going to get implemented even if they over-rule other competing claims.

WakeUp

I think the Israelis this time are going after Hamas to finish them off or to hurt them so bad that they never recover. The Americans are basically washing their hands of the Middle East, and the Egyptians don't want to know. Neither have any leverage over Hamas nor an interest in mediating between Hamas and the Israelis. so this is only going to escalate and ones mind might posit that the law of unintended consequence has now increased ten fold this may well be the spark that ignites the entire region and who knows where else. When a people are being systematically and in many ways brutally oppressed , with no army to protect them, opposed by a much larger and well equipped foe what are they do.

I don't believe the Israelis are interested in peace. I believe this is a calculated move by Nethanyahoo and his Zionist buddies to fragment or destroy Palestinian unity. I don't agree with Hamas indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel no more than I agree with the brutal tactics of the Israelis, but what are the Palestinians to do. Using the British as an example , with their previous history of oppression on this island, if they employed the same tactics the Israelis do - attempting to turn the island into a giant concentration camp , attempting a land and see blockade , continually pushing people of their land and stealing it so on so forth, do you think we would just sit on our hands and take it? I think not. People are highlighting the fact that Israel has a right to respond to the rocket fire and indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza is wrong ( which I agree with ) but what other options do they have. So consider this in light of indiscriminate rocket fire being wrong should the Palestinians be armed with more advanced weaponry enabling them to properly target the Israeli military. Or shut they just shut up , lay down and accept Israeli oppression and continually being phucked over by them? I'm not advocating this I'm just curious . I think this is going to get to worse as Bibi himself has said the gloves are off. that part of the world and the Arab world in general I would think ,there is a shift and change unfolding right Infront of our eyes. All it needs is a spark and that place is going to explode.