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General Rugby Discussion

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    #7562
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Felix Jones is God wrote: »
    Offence? None taken.
    POC gave his career to Munster, different situation. And I wonder how in the world Bristol knew he was "available"

    Well, POC owed Munster nothing, so he wasn't begrudged a payday. Pat Lam owes Connacht nothing, he has brought us unprecedented success and has our eternal gratitude. He is not begrudged a payday either. It's professional sport, not sure why you're being so curmudgeonly over it...


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    #7563
    Felix Jones is God
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭Felix Jones is God


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Well, POC owed Munster nothing, so he wasn't begrudged a payday. Pat Lam owes Connacht nothing, he has brought us unprecedented success and has our eternal gratitude. He is not begrudged a payday either. It's professional sport, not sure why you're being so curmudgeonly over it...

    Trying to compare POC's contribution to Munster and Irish rugby with Lams is daft
    It's clear that Lam made promises to players he has brought in and ones that extended contracts, and there will be some unhappy bunnies in the camp from now until the seasons end.
    It's not being curmudgeonly (for once) I just see it as a poorly timed decision from a coach, whos been poorly instructed, which will have a negative impact on Connacht.


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    #7564
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    FJIG is right.

    Lam was pushing the whole long term project idea for a while and now he's leaving his contract early.

    Now I know why he's leaving as it sounds like the money is just too good to turn down and that's life. That doesn't change the fact that he's been saying one thing and has now just done the opposite.


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    #7565
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    FJIG is right.

    Lam was pushing the whole long term project idea for a while and now he's leaving his contract early.

    Now I know why he's leaving as it sounds like the money is just too good to turn down and that's life. That doesn't change the fact that he's been saying one thing and has now just done the opposite.

    From his arrival he has been very clear that we was about putting the right structures in place, that it wasn't about personalities, that it wasn't about him. He put the structures in place. He got the right coaching talent. Some of that talent was recognised and better offers that came in were accepted. The structures remained in place. Dan McFarland left, Jimmy Duffy came in, Connacht won the Pro12. Now Lam has accepted a similar offer. The structures will not disintegrate overnight without him. He has set Connacht on a better track, a long-term project which us his legacy.

    He spent 4 years here, that is longer than Joe Schmidt spent at Leinster before he took a bigger job, it's longer than Kidney spent at Munster in his successful stint and took a bigger job. Only Michael Cheika has had a longer spell with an Irish province which was successful. You could say Cheika introduced a successful long-term project in Leinster which forced players to work hard and achieve their potential. He wasn't lambasted for leaving IIRC. I don't see why Lam is being criticised for taking a bigger paying job, it can be a short career if you don't keep being successful and he has to look after his family.


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    #7566
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    FJIG is right.

    Lam was pushing the whole long term project idea for a while and now he's leaving his contract early.

    Now I know why he's leaving as it sounds like the money is just too good to turn down and that's life. That doesn't change the fact that he's been saying one thing and has now just done the opposite.

    For every time Pat Lam has said something about long term project he has always mentioned no one is bigger or too important than the club including himself, and having the structures in place to cope with anyone not being there.

    Or what Zzippy said


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    #7567
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I'm not sure how long other coaches stayed at their club's has anything to do with what I said.

    Lam said a lot how he was now a Galway man, or words to that affect, and that this was a long term thing for him.

    I've no problem with him leaving and wish him well. But what he has done does go against what he's been saying for a while.


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    #7568
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    I'm not sure how long other coaches stayed at their club's has anything to do with what I said.

    Lam said a lot how he was now a Galway man, or words to that affect, and that this was a long term thing for him.

    I've no problem with him leaving and wish him well. But what he has done does go against what he's been saying for a while.

    "Long term" as in having the structures in place in Connacht rugby so can be sustainable and competitive long term, not just for him personally.


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    #7569
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,486 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Felix Jones is God wrote: »
    Snobbery? Your posts are becoming more comical by the day
    Joe signing a contract extension probably hastened his exit from Ireland, but let's call a spade a spade, he has left a club that is in the champions cup for a team that will be in the second tier in England, ...not exactly going to leave a pleasant taste in the mouth

    Well, I'm glad my posts bring you mirth.

    Lam moved from the Blues (triple Super Rugby Champions, even if like your Munster their last trophy success is starting to date) to "lowly" Connacht...and won the Pro 12.

    If he can achieve similar success with Bristol then it will be job well done and another star on the CV.

    Clubs fortunes wax and wane: is Munster a great club...or was once great club? I suppose it depends on how you define "great" and whether indeed what I consider to be rugby snobbery plays a part in your assessment of greatness.


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    #7570
    Felix Jones is God
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭Felix Jones is God


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Well, I'm glad my posts bring you mirth.

    Lam moved from the Blues (triple Super Rugby Champions, even if like your Munster their last trophy success is starting to date) to "lowly" Connacht...and won the Pro 12.

    If he can achieve similar success with Bristol then it will be job well done and another star on the CV.

    Clubs fortunes wax and wane: is Munster a great club...or was once great club? I suppose it depends on how you define "great" and whether indeed what I consider to be rugby snobbery plays a part in your assessment of greatness.

    Whut!?!


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    #7571
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Well, I'm glad my posts bring you mirth.

    Lam moved from the Blues (triple Super Rugby Champions, even if like your Munster their last trophy success is starting to date) to "lowly" Connacht...and won the Pro 12.

    If he can achieve similar success with Bristol then it will be job well done and another star on the CV.

    Clubs fortunes wax and wane: is Munster a great club...or was once great club? I suppose it depends on how you define "great" and whether indeed what I consider to be rugby snobbery plays a part in your assessment of greatness.

    He's moving to a likely Championship club Swiwi. It's a step down in every sense of the word.

    If he views it as a long term project then I can see the appeal but in the short term he's going to be playing Doncaster and Cornish Pirates instead of Toulouse.


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    #7572
    Lake1989
    Site Banned Posts: 377 ✭✭Lake1989


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Only Michael Cheika has had a longer spell with an Irish province which was successful. You could say Cheika introduced a successful long-term project in Leinster which forced players to work hard and achieve their potential. He wasn't lambasted for leaving IIRC.

    Fairly sure Cheika's contract was up, and he went to Stade Francais. Bit of a difference


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    #7573
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,193 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Felix Jones is God wrote: »
    Offence? None taken.
    POC gave his career to Munster, different situation. And I wonder how in the world Bristol knew he was "available"

    His nephew is one of their star players.

    I would agree that he hasn't practiced what he preached though. He has spoken of trust and building relationships. This doesn't tie in with that.

    I can't blame him. I don't think there's one person in Irish rugby with a family that could turn down an offer that multiplied their salary. It's hard to be annoyed with him.


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    #7574
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,193 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    He's moving to a likely Championship club Swiwi. It's a step down in every sense of the word.

    If he views it as a long term project then I can see the appeal but in the short term he's going to be playing Doncaster and Cornish Pirates instead of Toulouse.

    It's a step down if you view the move in its current guise.

    However, if you look at it in the bigger picture, I would see it as a step up. Bristol are not a small club. They have pedigree. Currently, Connacht are not likely to be playing Toulouse either next season.

    With the financial backing of Lansdown, they could be contenders for some real silverware in the next few years. It looks like they're really putting their money where their mouths are which should bring success.

    In all honesty, I would imagine more success in the near future for Bristol than Connacht. One of them can spend their way there and achieve it fairly quickly. Connacht are much more dependent on a bigger picture and the loss of a couple of players can be detrimental to them.


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    #7575
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Buer wrote: »
    In all honesty, I would imagine more success in the near future for Bristol than Connacht. One of them can spend their way there and achieve it fairly quickly. Connacht are much more dependent on a bigger picture and the loss of a couple of players can be detrimental to them.


    I agree to a point, and like I said I can see the appeal.

    It is worth remembering that in the likely case that Bristol go down, Lam is still basically putting everything on Bristol succeeding where they have repeatedly failed in terms of two matches to define their entire future for the following year. It's a big risk and despite Bristol being heavy hitters in the Championship for some time they consistently failed to get promoted and now they are failing to stay up.


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    #7576
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,193 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    It is worth remembering that in the likely case that Bristol go down, Lam is still basically putting everything on Bristol succeeding where they have repeatedly failed in terms of two matches to define their entire future for the following year. It's a big risk and despite Bristol being heavy hitters in the Championship for some time they consistently failed to get promoted and now they are failing to stay up.

    Been discussed before but a huge issue is the process of promotion. It's absurd that it's a playoff for promotion. It causes significant problems with regards to being able to attract talent given players will be reluctant to sign for a team which doesn't know what division they'll be featuring in.

    However, Bristol have no business not getting promoted given their financial clout and some of the players they have. It was ridiculous that they lost to London Welsh (and they didn't beat Doncaster by a huge amount either).

    If Lam doesn't get them promoted in his first season, it will be a complete disaster.


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    #7577
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,486 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    He's moving to a likely Championship club Swiwi. It's a step down in every sense of the word.

    If he views it as a long term project then I can see the appeal but in the short term he's going to be playing Doncaster and Cornish Pirates instead of Toulouse.

    Am I correct in saying this is the first year Connacht qualified on merit for the CC, and not the freebie?

    So, Lam effectively took over a middling Pro 12 side with no hope of ever getting past the pool stages of the CC?

    It's not that different from Bristol, but Bristol have more money and a growing number of fairly high profile players.

    TBH, none of this was my point. A Munster fan looked down his nose at Bristol on behalf of Connacht fans, and to me this was un peu de snobisme.


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    #7578
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    TBH, none of this was my point. A Munster fan looked down his nose at Bristol on behalf of Connacht fans, and to me this was un peu de snobisme.

    He said it was a step down. That is likely going to be entirely accurate - coaching in the Championship is a step down.

    And yes this is the first year Connacht have qualified on merit for Europe.
    Buer wrote: »
    Been discussed before but a huge issue is the process of promotion. It's absurd that it's a playoff for promotion.

    Utterly absurd, but it is nonetheless the system they have to deal with. I agree that their long term future is likely a lot rosier, but it is also a lot more precarious.


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    #7579
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    It seems Bristol bought Dan Tuohy out of his contract to join them immediately. If that's true then they're certainly not resigned to being a Championship side when Lam arrives, and if they can bring in a few more big names before the end of the season they might find enough to scrape themselves off the bottom. They play Worcester next, a win in that game might change things.


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    #7580
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,193 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    It seems Bristol bought Dan Tuohy out of his contract to join them immediately. If that's true then they're certainly not resigned to being a Championship side when Lam arrives, and if they can bring in a few more big names before the end of the season they might find enough to scrape themselves off the bottom. They play Worcester next, a win in that game might change things.

    They're not exactly miles off Worcester. They've been a little unlucky. 4 losing bonus points so far. You'd imagine there's certainly a win or two in this team. Worcester have only won once.

    If they beat Worcester, it's going to be an interesting battle. I would be surprised at all to see them try to pick up a short term signing or two to drag them over the line.


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    #7581
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,603 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Worchester's star player (Teo) has barely played for them yet this season, you have to imagine he will help them a little too.

    It's interesting enough. Honestly if you offered me unlimited resources, great fans, a great stadium, a decent city to live and a massive salary then I would definitely embrace the project for Bristol. You can see how any true love of rugby would welcome that chance.


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    #7582
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    wasn't there talk of them chasing Eben Etzebeth? one would assume sigining Tuohy means that isn't going ahead. Think he took a bad knock in the England game too


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    #7583
    Lake1989
    Site Banned Posts: 377 ✭✭Lake1989


    http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/38224267

    Saracens signed Skelton on short term deal


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    #7584
    Dog Botherer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Dog Botherer


    Lake1989 wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/38224267

    Saracens signed Skelton on short term deal

    Brawn over brain and a rep for cheap shots? No chance of the Sarries brand being damaged there.


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    #7585
    RobbieRuns
    Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭RobbieRuns


    Bad situation regarding London Welsh gone bust.

    Inevitable though.


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    #7586
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    Bad situation regarding London Welsh gone bust.

    Inevitable though.

    No sympathy really (for the executives, tons of sympathy for fans/players). They were told they were not ready for promotion by the RFU and they took them to court over it. Looks like the RFU might actually have known what they were talking about.


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    #7587
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    That's horrendous for the players. Hopefully something can be worked out regarding joining new clubs for the rest of the season. If there are squad number restrictions on Championship clubs, maybe they could be relaxed.


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    #7588
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    That's horrendous for the players. Hopefully something can be worked out regarding joining new clubs for the rest of the season. If there are squad number restrictions on Championship clubs, maybe they could be relaxed.

    There's a link to Italian clubs there and also opportunities in leagues below for the rest of the year.


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    #7589
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    Dog Botherer wrote: »
    Brawn over brain and a rep for cheap shots? No chance of the Sarries brand being damaged there.

    His one cheap shot in the Scotland game? Or are you referring to when he got harshly banned for giving someone a hug while Latu tip tackled him? He's immensely talented and obviously an incredible specimen, but he has some lovely touches in games as well.


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    #7590
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,218 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    His one cheap shot in the Scotland game? Or are you referring to when he got harshly banned for giving someone a hug while Latu tip tackled him? He's immensely talented and obviously an incredible specimen, but he has some lovely touches in games as well.

    i think hes an incredibly over rated player who wouldnt be where he is without his massive form


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    #7591
    penybont exile
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭penybont exile


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    Bad situation regarding London Welsh gone bust.

    Inevitable though.
    Sad ..... but that is a potential consequence of professionalism.

    Amazing to think (on a day when the Lions are in the news) that this one club provided seven players (out of 33) to the 1971 Lions squad that toured NZ. The only Lions team to win a series in NZ!


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