General Rugby Discussion

Yeah_Right

Watching that clip, I'd assume he was knocked out. However I don't have all the info so I'd be careful about calling bs on what the medical staff say. The player is always going to say "I'm fine coach. Put me on."

Just remember the outcry in Ireland when certain people (Hook and Jones I think it was) were saying Sexton should retire and his family must be worried for his health? If the docs say North wasn't knocked out then I believe them. If it turns out they were lying then they should be shot.

Buer

Yeah_Right wrote:

Just remember the outcry in Ireland when certain people (Hook and Jones I think it was) were saying Sexton should retire and his family must be worried for his health? If the docs say North wasn't knocked out then I believe them. If it turns out they were lying then they should be shot.

People often only lose consciousness for a few seconds. He could well have been conscious again by the time the medical staff reached him but I find it nearly impossible to believe he wasn't out cold on impact there.

Lake1989

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Watching that clip, I'd assume he was knocked out. However I don't have all the info so I'd be careful about calling bs on what the medical staff say. The player is always going to say "I'm fine coach. Put me on."

Just remember the outcry in Ireland when certain people (Hook and Jones I think it was) were saying Sexton should retire and his family must be worried for his health? If the docs say North wasn't knocked out then I believe them. If it turns out they were lying then they should be shot.

Hook is a crank who shouldnt be taken seriously and Jones was doing his usual attention deflecting stuff. This is different altogether.

North's explanation makes zero sense. He was back on his feet very quickly after worrying about a serious neck injury so if that was why he lay perfectly motionless why was he not strapped up to a spinal board like Henshaw was two weeks ago. I watched the incident again on the AP website and it doesnt add up in my view.

Yeah_Right

Buer wrote: »

People often only lose consciousness for a few seconds. He could well have been conscious again by the time the medical staff reached him but I find it nearly impossible to believe he wasn't out cold on impact there.

I agree. I assume the doctors have seen the footage since and will run some precautionary tests this week based on his history.

Neil3030

Hmmmm.... look I've no idea what happened but two things don't stack up for me.

1. He goes limp instantly upon his head hitting the ground. So in the space of a fraction of a second he registered that his neck might be damaged and made the conscious decision to make his body go limp. All while he has just taken a clatter to the head. That is a pretty darn quickly executed decision, tbh.

2. If indeed the concern is your neck, why do you adopt a body position that causes you to faceplant on the second impact? Surely break your fall (he had at least one free hand), avoid any further damage to your neck, then go limp?

I am not jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon here, I would just be interested to see how these two points are cleared up.

NiallBoo

molloyjh wrote: »

North landed on his side. Had he landed on his head or neck area it would have been a red. It was the correct call.

I don't understand why officials differentiate between landing on your head, and landing on your side/back followed by your head smacking down.

Both have similar potential to do damage.

Yeah_Right

Lake1989 wrote: »

Hook is a crank who shouldnt be taken seriously and Jones was doing his usual attention deflecting stuff. This is different altogether.

North's explanation makes zero sense. He was back on his feet very quickly after worrying about a serious neck injury so if that was why he lay perfectly motionless why was he not strapped up to a spinal board like Henshaw was two weeks ago. I watched the incident again on the AP website and it doesnt add up in my view.

You'll get no argument from me about your assessment of Hook and Jones:D Just pointing out that people leapt to Sexton's defence saying lets trust the experts who are involved and have all the info. I'm saying the same here.

I guess I have faith that the people involved have the player's best interests at heart. That's certainly what I hope anyway. It wouldn't surprise me if later in the week North was ruled out. If he's in then I assume (and hope) he is ok.

Lake1989

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You'll get no argument from me about your assessment of Hook and Jones:D Just pointing out that people leapt to Sexton's defence saying lets trust the experts who are involved and have all the info. I'm saying the same here.

I guess I have faith that the people involved have the player's best interests at heart. That's certainly what I hope anyway. It wouldn't surprise me if later in the week North was ruled out. If he's in then I assume (and hope) he is ok.

I think with North, people are actually concerned for his well being. His gf spoke last year about how he wasnt able to pronounce his words correctly for several weeks after he was knocked out in the Saints v Wasps game a few months after the Wales v England game. The images certainly dont look good. Hook was whinging about Sexton because he was being taken off, North wasnt and thats the biggest concern.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

NiallBoo wrote: »

I don't understand why officials differentiate between landing on your head, and landing on your side/back followed by your head smacking down.

Both have similar potential to do damage.

Exactly. Talking purely from a concussion point of view you don't have to get a bang on the head to get concussion. Enough force on the neck, shoulder, chest etc. can have the same effect.

Yeah_Right

Lake1989 wrote: »

I think with North, people are actually concerned for his well being. His gf spoke last year about how he wasnt able to pronounce his words correctly for several weeks after he was knocked out in the Saints v Wasps game a few months after the Wales v England game. The images certainly dont look good. Hook was whinging about Sexton because he was being taken off, North wasnt and thats the biggest concern.

That history is why I assume that the medical staff at Saints will be extra vigilant with North this week. If he plays then I'm going to assume that he's ok. No doubt Hook will have a rant about it though because he knows best :rolleyes:

CatFromHue

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You'll get no argument from me about your assessment of Hook and Jones:D Just pointing out that people leapt to Sexton's defence saying lets trust the experts who are involved and have all the info. I'm saying the same here.

I guess I have faith that the people involved have the player's best interests at heart. That's certainly what I hope anyway. It wouldn't surprise me if later in the week North was ruled out. If he's in then I assume (and hope) he is ok.

With Sexton we never saw footage of him dropping like a stone. We've seen that here with North and have seen it in the past too

Bazzo

I remember hearing Hook on the radio after BOD announced he'd be playing on for one more year saying something along the lines of "Hopefully he lives to see his 60s and doesn't regret this decision". Nothing he says should be taken seriously or even given attention, he absolutely revels in misery.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

I haven't seen the incident but would the Northampton medical staff lie about this sort of thing? If it was proved they did could they not be struck off?

If they say he wasn't knocked out then maybe we should take their word for it?

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

So the player is lying, and the docs are lying...or perhaps some people want to see conspiracy's where there are none

There's a good quality clip here
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/george-north-2/353463

He doesn't land on his neck and goes limp as soon as his head smacks the ground so there's plenty to feed this conspiracy

Thanks cat.

Well based on that he definitely looks out cold.

I still can't believe the Northampton medical staff would be anything but up front and honest. If they aren't then they should lose their medical license and the club should be deducted points and hit with a huge fine.

Maybe they just don't know and are taking North's word for it.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

With Sexton we never saw footage of him dropping like a stone. We've seen that here with North and have seen it in the past too

Very true. Like I said, I would assume he was knocked out from what I've seen.

Also I didn't mean to imply that Hook was right in what he said about Sexton. I think he was wrong and I have zero respect for his opinion.

Kirk Van Houten

bilston wrote:

I still can't believe the Northampton medical staff would be anything but up front and honest. If they aren't then they should lose their medical license and the club should be deducted points and hit with a huge fine.

bilston wrote:

Maybe they just don't know and are taking North's word for it.

If they honestly believed North didn't initially move due to fear for his neck why wasn't he put in a neck brace until it was fully investigated?

Either he potentially had a serious neck injury or he had concussion, but for Saints to have no concern for his fitness to carry on is the frightening part.

Dog Botherer

https://twitter.com/Nabasboer/status/805426537994604549?s=09

Interested Observer

I don't believe for a minute that he was not knocked out. There's history here of him playing through concussions, it's really worrying imo. Interesting to see if he's in the squad for next week now.

Lake1989

Interested Observer wrote: »

I don't believe for a minute that he was not knocked out. There's history here of him playing through concussions, it's really worrying imo. Interesting to see if he's in the squad for next week now.

His arms are the giveaway IMO. Look at the video of the wales v england game in 2015 6n for comparison. The neck injury story is just trying to cover up mistakes made by Saints because he was moving around on all fours about a minute after the tackle. Given the jostling that went on for 30 seconds there is no way a proper examination occured when you see other players over the weekend getting assessed for 2-3-4 minutes. There was one in the early stages of the Leinster game when the Dragons 15 went off.

Either way, it wasnt handled properly. And when they saw the replay he should have immediately been removed from the game because at the very least there is a suspicion of a loss of consciousness.

Premiership rugby now appear to be investigating:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/12/04/premiership-rugby-investigate-george-north-concussion-incident/

EDIT: Just reading there in more detail, apparently all concussions are reviewed.

Buer

What baffles me is that Northampton's statement claimed that North hit the ground and was complaining of neck pain. The bloke has had a really bad, heavy fall and is complaining of neck pain yet they see fit to send him back onto the field? I don't think they thought things through at all before making that announcement. They cannot assess a neck injury fully in a few minutes on the sideline. They can claim that he was assessed and they knew there was no neck injury. Then North tweets that he doesn't think he'll be able to turn his head for a few days?

Even if he was 100% conscious that's a bloody disgrace of a call. I have absolutely no faith in the integrity of clubs to put the safety of their players first. I also believe their medical staff are under huge pressure to clear players for duty as quickly as possible. Once the player ticks certain boxes, they'll approve for them to return to action as they've done their official duty even if they know there's a chance there are issues there which an initial assessment can't identify.

Lake1989

[Deleted User] wrote: »

EDIT: Just reading there in more detail, apparently all concussions are reviewed.

But he had a neck injury?

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

What baffles me is that Northampton's statement claimed that North hit the ground and was complaining of neck pain. The bloke has had a really bad, heavy fall and is complaining of neck pain yet they see fit to send him back onto the field? I don't think they thought things through at all before making that announcement. They cannot assess a neck injury fully in a few minutes on the sideline. They can claim that he was assessed and they knew there was no neck injury. Then North tweets that he doesn't think he'll be able to turn his head for a few days?

Even if he was 100% conscious that's a bloody disgrace of a call. I have absolutely no faith in the integrity of clubs to put the safety of their players first. I also believe their medical staff are under huge pressure to clear players for duty as quickly as possible. Once the player ticks certain boxes, they'll approve for them to return to action as they've done their official duty even if they know there's a chance there are issues there which an initial assessment can't identify.

Well he was assessed by an independent medical professional and cleared to play, given its the Premiership. As opposed to just a Northampton employee.

The strange part is that the premiership are now investigating it. Surely the whole reason for requiring independent assessments in that league is to prevent this sort of thing from being required.

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well he was assessed by an independent medical professional and cleared to play, given its the Premiership. As opposed to just a Northampton employee.

The strange part is that the premiership are now investigating it. Surely the whole reason for requiring independent assessments in that league is to prevent this sort of thing from being required.

I suppose the investigation is to determine if he purposely did poorly on the baseline test for hia. If so he could be concussed and keep on playing without doctors noticing as he beat his baseline tests.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well he was assessed by an independent medical professional and cleared to play, given its the Premiership. As opposed to just a Northampton employee.

Well, in that instance, I have no faith in Premiership Rugby.

There's something very suspicious about the whole thing. They claim he was conscious and complaining about neck pain but didn't immobilise him?

Someone is either telling fibs or did a brutal job of looking out for the player's medical welfare.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Well, in that instance, I have no faith in Premiership Rugby.

There's something very suspicious about the whole thing. They claim he was conscious and complaining about neck pain but didn't immobilise him?

Someone is either telling fibs or did a brutal job of looking out for the player's medical welfare.

I'm not sure what you are proposing as an alternative to an independent licensed medical professional.

Maybe all the unqualified fans watching on television with no access to the players' medical records or ability to examine the players and diagnose potential issues should just vote? Press 1 if you think this player is concussed?

It looked to me like he was out. It looked very bad through the screen. But I'm not a doctor and even if I was I'm not sure how I'd feel about a doctor diagnosing me via a TV feed.

irishbucsfan

Briefly reading the Telegraph article makes it sound like he wasn't in fact assessed by an independent person at the time. If that's the case then apologies, I must be completely misunderstanding how their system works. It may be independently assessed after the fact? Maybe someone knows?

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are proposing as an alternative to an independent licensed medical professional.

Maybe all the unqualified fans watching on television with no access to the players' medical records or ability to examine the players and diagnose potential issues should just vote? Press 1 if you think this player is concussed?

It looked to me like he was out. It looked very bad through the screen. But I'm not a doctor and even if I was I'm not sure how I'd feel about a doctor diagnosing me via a TV feed.

I'm not proposing an alteration to the independent assessor. But I don't understand how good medical practice could have been followed. He claims a suspected neck injury but is allowed return to the field.

To my mind, either the medical assessor hasn't done his job or people are lying about what the issue was. Now, the assessor might have gone through the correct protocol and North was able to tick certain boxes but there's no way he could say definitively that North was fine. The fact that North has come out and stated he doesn't think he'll be able to turn his head for a few days suggests there was a certain level of trauma sustained.

I'd also believe that medical staff, whether independent or not, come under serious pressure and are also human. I'd imagine the decision for him to return to play is going to see the medical officer's assessment come under significant scrutiny.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

Even if he was 100% conscious that's a bloody disgrace of a call. I have absolutely no faith in the integrity of clubs to put the safety of their players first. I also believe their medical staff are under huge pressure to clear players for duty as quickly as possible. Once the player ticks certain boxes, they'll approve for them to return to action as they've done their official duty even if they know there's a chance there are issues there which an initial assessment can't identify.

The Florian Fritz / Guy Noves disgrace a couple of years ago really opened our eyes to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgdeF0hB9ik

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It looked to me like he was out. It looked very bad through the screen. But I'm not a doctor and even if I was I'm not sure how I'd feel about a doctor diagnosing me via a TV feed.

Is a doctor any more capable than anyone else of diagnosing whether someone was knocked out after the fact? It's a genuine question as I don't know, but I would have thought that if he had regained consciousness by the time he was being attended to then the only "proof" of him being KOed would in fact be from the fairly suspicious looking video.

razorblunt

At this stage, I'm going to take the facts at face value and say "ok, he was cleared to play".
My main concern is that, as a player or that player's family I would like to think the staff would take into consideration the previous incidents and sit me out just as a pre caution rather than anything else. At the very least I think you're owed this duty of care.