Gerry Conlon has died

The Golden Miller

LorMal wrote: »

Never saw Brits Out?

I did. If you had any sort of a brain, you'd see that that isn't the same analogy. First of all "Brits out" is a reference to the removal of the British establishment from 6 counties in Ireland, whereas "No Irish" signs are discriminating against individuals

Secondly, when did you decide to change the goal posts? Wasn't it about tolerance levels between the Irish and English? But it's "British" now all of a sudden? They are completely different things. Not all Brits are English, didn't you know? Nothing to do with tolerance levels towards the English.

So going on the above, we can agree that the Irish were more tolerant towards the English than vice versa, as we never had any "No English" signs?

The Golden Miller

LorMal wrote: »

I seem to be getting under your skin unintentionally. I had no intention of doing so. You have gone to a lot of trouble to forensically examine my posts.
I think a chill pill might be in order.
I only wanted to make the general point that all Ireland's woes cannot be wholly blamed on external factors. There is easily as much anti British bias here as there is anti Irish bias there. Whataboutery has caused so much suffering.

Oh the irony. Considering your only contribution to this thread has been nothing but whataboutery

Nodin

LorMal wrote: »

I seem to be getting under your skin unintentionally. I had no intention of doing so. You have gone to a lot of trouble to forensically examine my posts.
I think a chill pill might be in order.
I only wanted to make the general point that all Ireland's woes cannot be wholly blamed on external factors. There is easily as much anti British bias here as there is anti Irish bias there. Whataboutery has caused so much suffering.

Nobody said it was. Why do you keep this up in a thread about an innocent man that suffered injustice and has now died~?

LorMal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I did. If you had any sort of a brain, you'd see that that isn't the same analogy. First of all "Brits out" is a reference to the removal of the British establishment from 6 counties in Ireland, whereas "No Irish" signs are discriminating against individuals

Secondly, when did you decide to change the goal posts? Wasn't it about tolerance levels between the Irish and English? But it's "British" now all of a sudden? They are completely different things. Not all Brits are English, didn't you know? Nothing to do with tolerance levels towards the English.

So going on the above, we can agree that the Irish were more tolerant towards the English than vice versa, as we never had any "No English" signs?

I was going to reply properly but your hostility is obvious and no matter what I write you will be nasty and personal in your response. Plus End of the Road will thank it.
Enjoy you bitterness against the English then. Hope it works for you.

twowheelsgood

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So going on the above, we can agree that the Irish were more tolerant towards the English than vice versa, as we never had any "No English" signs?

The question of the intolerance of the English to the Irish is largely a separate matter to the hostility created by the IRA murder campaign and has even less to do with an RIP thread, but that ship seems to have sailed. Much of this intolerance was fuelled by an established stereotype of the Irish (lazy, drunken, violent), presumably forged in part at least by Punch magazine.

It is not really sensible when considering who are the most tolerant people, to compare Irish tolerance to the English with English tolerance to the Irish. A much more valid assessment of our tolerance would be to look at our attitudes to Irish travellers.

The stereotype is very similar (some of course would argue that there is more than a grain of truth to the stereotype, which is of course exactly what some English did, any maybe still do, about the Irish stereotype). And of course the wide-spread propensity to judge travellers in the collective is not that different from the mindset that would place a NINA notice.

There is not any great difference between us and the English in the tolerance league IMO - and notwithstanding some failings, we are both fairly high up the table by international standards.

Karl Stein

LorMal wrote: »

You have gone to a lot of trouble to forensically examine my posts.

Does that annoy you? Prepare to be more annoyed then if it does because I've just done some cursory 'forensic examination' of your posts and here's what I have found.

1. You've made more posts than any other person in this thread.

2. You made 19 posts in the thread before you even mentioned 'RIP' and only did after being challenged on your agenda by way of this post.

3. You chose not to thank the RIP opening post and instead, as SofS has suggested, have engaged in little else but trying to 'swing the pendulum' of the discussion away from any vestige of criticism of our neighbouring state.

Would you like me to continue?

Nodin

?

Karl Stein

Nodin wrote: »

?

I made it more clear that I wasn't questioning yourself Nodin.

LorMal

Karl Stein wrote: »

Does that annoy you? Prepare to be more annoyed then if it does because I've just done some cursory 'forensic examination' of your posts and here's what I have found.

1. You've made more posts than any other person in this thread.

2. You made 19 posts in the thread before you even mentioned 'RIP' and only did after being challenged on your agenda by way of this post.

3. You chose not to thank the RIP opening post and instead, as SofS has suggested, have engaged in little else but trying to 'swing the pendulum' of the discussion away from any vestige of criticism of our neighbouring state.

Would you like me to continue?

Don't bother Karl, you seem to pick a fight on almost every thread you join. Do you scour Boards looking for someone to pick on?
Oh, sorry, except 'World Cup Hotties'. You didn't fight with anyone on that.

Karl Stein

LorMal wrote: »

Don't bother Karl, you seem to pick a fight on almost every thread you join. Do you scour Boards looking for someone to pick on?
Oh, sorry, except 'World Cup Hotties'. You didn't fight with anyone on that.

Why-oh-why do you quote me only to completely ignore my points in favour of your own soporific soliloquy?

Nodin

LorMal wrote: »

Don't bother Karl, you seem to pick a fight on almost every thread you join. Do you scour Boards looking for someone to pick on?
Oh, sorry, except 'World Cup Hotties'. You didn't fight with anyone on that.

Have you something personal against Gerry Conlon?

old hippy

Nodin wrote: »

Have you something personal against Gerry Conlon?

I believe he had a "point" to make & what better place than a thread paying tribute to a man who had the best years of his life taken by injustice and prejudice. A man who's life was probably considerably shortened by the years of freedom denied to him.

The oh so perfect place to derail one's pre-meditated agenda onto. Followed by some spurious crocodile tears when everyone rumbled said agenda.

Shame on you.

Fratton Fred

old hippy wrote: »

I believe he had a "point" to make & what better place than a thread paying tribute to a man who had the best years of his life taken by injustice and prejudice.

This is what I don't get. Injustice, absolutely and I've no doubt it shortened his life as well. The time he spent in prison must have been torture.

But why prejudice? Are you claiming that arresting an Irishman for a crime carried out by the Irish republican army was prejudice?

LorMal

old hippy wrote: »

I believe he had a "point" to make & what better place than a thread paying tribute to a man who had the best years of his life taken by injustice and prejudice. A man who's life was probably considerably shortened by the years of freedom denied to him.

The oh so perfect place to derail one's pre-meditated agenda onto. Followed by some spurious crocodile tears when everyone rumbled said agenda.

Shame on you.

Please spare me the superiority and the moral indignation. I already said what happened to Gerry Conlon was outragious. I am merely arguing that it was not a result of widespread anti-Irish bias as stated by many on here but rather as a result of a minority group of bigots within the Police Force and Judiciary at the time. There are bigots everywhere.
It was not the Irish (or the 'Republican Movement') that came to support Gerry or the other Guildford Four- a point made time and again by Paul Hill. No, it was people like Gareth Pierce (English Lawyer), Chris Mullen (English MP) and Tony Benn (English MP) who supported them through thick and thin.
So, I am sorry if this contradicts your cozy view of Irish victimhood. My only 'pre-meditated agenda' is to acknowledge the truth - the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six and the Maguires suffered immeasurable torture at the hands of a group of bullies, tyrants and cowards - but not because of widespread racism against Irish people in England. Nor would they have been in prison if the IRA had not planted bombs to kill innocent people in the highstreets of England.
Now bugger off.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is what I don't get. Injustice, absolutely and I've no doubt it shortened his life as well. The time he spent in prison must have been torture.

But why prejudice? Are you claiming that arresting an Irishman for a crime carried out by the Irish republican army was prejudice?

Another one with an anti-Gerry Conlon agenda.

Dyr

LorMal wrote: »

I am merely arguing that it was not a result of widespread anti-Irish bias as stated by many on here but rather as a result of a minority group of bigots within the Police Force and Judiciary at the time. There are bigots everywhere.

A minority? You base that on what sham?

You left out the bigots in the british media, goverment and parliament.

Big minority that.

Karl Stein

Bambi wrote: »

You left out the bigots in the british media, goverment and parliament.

Big minority that.

And why weren't those who framed Gerry Conlon brought to justice? Where were the red top headlines calling for those who framed Gerry Conlon to be brought to justice?

Is there a minority in the establishment that shielded those who framed Jerry Conlon from justice or is there institutional indifference to the fact because those they framed were only Irish?

Tony Blair's apology was all well and good but it should have been accompanied by a statement that the British Government would endeavour to bring those who knowingly framed the Birmingham Six and Guilford Four before the courts.

I think it should be noted that the Irish Government, as usual when it came to the British, were a pack of mealy mouthed cowards and only got involved when it would have been political suicide not to after the British media (for shame) started bringing the cases to the public conciousness.

[Jerry Conlon] said it was 13 years after he was incarcerated that the Irish Government got involved and that was only after the British media had raised the possibility of a miscarriage of justice.

irishtimes.com

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Another one with an anti-Gerry Conlon agenda.

Bit lame Nodin, not like you.

FTA69

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is what I don't get. Injustice, absolutely and I've no doubt it shortened his life as well. The time he spent in prison must have been torture.

But why prejudice? Are you claiming that arresting an Irishman for a crime carried out by the Irish republican army was prejudice?

No but torturing a false confession out of the first Paddy you grab and then keeping him in prison despite knowing him to be innocent definitely smacks of a prejudicial approach to say the least.

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

No but torturing a false confession out of the first Paddy you grab and then keeping him in prison despite knowing him to be innocent definitely smacks of a prejudicial approach to say the least.

Isn't that like claiming Denzel Washington was discriminated against for not being offered the role of Michael Collins?

LorMal

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Isn't that like claiming Denzel Washington was discriminated against for not being offered the role of Michael Collins?

His Cork accent is terrible

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Isn't that like claiming Denzel Washington was discriminated against for not being offered the role of Michael Collins?

Well they arrested, charged, lied about these men and women based on the sole fact that they were Irish.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well they arrested, charged, lied about these men and women based on the sole fact that they were Irish.

Oh, ok, so the fact the bomb was planted by the IRISH republican army was irrelevant. The bombers could have been Norwegians, or Pakistani for all we know.

Karl Stein

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oh, ok, so the fact the bomb was planted by the IRISH republican army was irrelevant. The bombers could have been Norwegians, or Pakistani for all we know.

It was supposed to be a justice system not a xenophobic torture gang.

Fratton Fred

Karl Stein wrote: »

It was supposed to be a justice system not a xenophobic torture gang.

It was no more xenophobic than the PIRA's campaign in England.

Sunnyisland

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was no more xenophobic than the PIRA's campaign in England.

But Fred is this thread not about an innocent young man whose life was destroyed by so called brittish justice ? The man has died let him rest in peace, you can start another thread about the PIRA campaign when your ready.

Karl Stein

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was no more xenophobic than the PIRA's campaign in England.

You know what you're doing now Fred? You're trying to draw moral parallels between a paramilitary organisation and the British justice system.

Dear oh dear.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oh, ok, so the fact the bomb was planted by the IRISH republican army was irrelevant. The bombers could have been Norwegians, or Pakistani for all we know.

Being arrested for sharing nationality is one thing but charging and sentencing people because they're Irish is quite another.

old hippy

LorMal wrote: »

Please spare me the superiority and the moral indignation. I already said what happened to Gerry Conlon was outragious. I am merely arguing that it was not a result of widespread anti-Irish bias as stated by many on here but rather as a result of a minority group of bigots within the Police Force and Judiciary at the time. There are bigots everywhere.
It was not the Irish (or the 'Republican Movement') that came to support Gerry or the other Guildford Four- a point made time and again by Paul Hill. No, it was people like Gareth Pierce (English Lawyer), Chris Mullen (English MP) and Tony Benn (English MP) who supported them through thick and thin.
So, I am sorry if this contradicts your cozy view of Irish victimhood. My only 'pre-meditated agenda' is to acknowledge the truth - the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six and the Maguires suffered immeasurable torture at the hands of a group of bullies, tyrants and cowards - but not because of widespread racism against Irish people in England. Nor would they have been in prison if the IRA had not planted bombs to kill innocent people in the highstreets of England.
Now bugger off.

I don't have a cosy view of Irish victimhood. Ask any of the regular posters on any thread about NI/the troubles/Nationalism etc & they'll tell you I'm not a patriot or one that lobs frequent attacks at "de Brits". I have no truck with Republicanism at all.

That said; to try and belittle the conspiracy against Gerry Conlon and other innocent Irish people is a mark of desperation on your part.

Time to man up. You could have posted a thread full of your insinuations and ugly sentiment but you chose a platform - the death of an innocent man - to get your failed points across.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

Being arrested for sharing nationality is one thing but charging and sentencing people because they're Irish is quite another.

So he wasn't wrongly charged with a crime, he was convicted of being Irish.

Riiiight.