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So what do ye know about Islam?
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In science everything is a theory
So true you don't even know.
You can't prove any of this is real. Hypothetically this entire world as you perceive it could just be processes and programs in some advanced computer in the 'other' universe, with "you" being uploaded and updated every day by other worldly creatures who decide everything in this "world". Highly unlikely i know, but no one can prove or disprove it none the less. I think therefore i am, doesn't cut it.
With this fact in mind, it's only fair to ascertain that everything you know or think you know is based on a belief that you are and this is real.
So see, you atheists do have faith!
*will reply to previous posts tomorrow God willing.. Too many miracles and truths to recollect off the cuff, so i'll need time to compile my favourite examples.0 -
So true you don't even know.
You can't prove any of this is real. Hypothetically this entire world as you perceive it could just be processes and programs in some advanced computer in the 'other' universe, with "you" being uploaded and updated every day by other worldly creatures who decide everything in this "world". Highly unlikely i know, but no one can prove or disprove it none the less. I think therefore i am, doesn't cut it.
With this fact in mind, it's only fair to ascertain that everything you know or think you know is based on a belief that you are and this is real.
So see, you atheists do have faith!
*will reply to previous posts tomorrow God willing.. Too many miracles and truths to recollect off the cuff, so i'll need time to compile my favourite examples.
Fact? What fact? You made a load of stuff up and said there was no way of proving you wrong. .. Or of you proving it right.. This is the most unscientific thing imaginable a theory in limbo , a theory created specifically so that can never be proven or disproven is utterly useless.
What difference would it make if everything around us was a simulation , or a holographic projection. science aims to understand the world around us , there is no belief that what is around us is real .. It is what it is , and it is proven by experimental evidence and observation . in science you doubt , in religion you believe without question .that is the difference .0 -
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Fact? What fact? You made a load of stuff up and said there was no way of proving you wrong. .. Or of you proving it right.. This is the most unscientific thing imaginable a theory in limbo , a theory created specifically so that can never be proven or disproven is utterly useless.
What difference would it make if everything around us was a simulation , or a holographic projection. science aims to understand the world around us , there is no belief that what is around us is real .. It is what it is , and it is proven by experimental evidence and observation . in science you doubt , in religion you believe without question .that is the difference .
Step away from the science a minute okay. Not everything has to be about evidence. My statement was intended to be thought provoking, not scientific.
You seem to have missed the point. It's not about whether the world is just a simulation. It's about the FACT that you BELIEVE it's not a simulation.
Observing the world and experimenting with it does not prove it's real. There are many scientific anomalies and freak experiment results outside of the norm, that haven't or can't be explained. Like for example the speed of light changing (one of the most constant observable measurements scientists use in countless applications). The speed of light to physicists is like the foundation of everything, which is why many won't even acknowledge this newish discovery that the speed of light might have actually changed in the past!
Anyway, that's beside the point. The point is you simply can not prove the world is real. You can't, you just can't (that's a fact
). You can't prove it's real, therefore you are left with no alternative but to believe it's real. Hence all scientific observations and laws are based on faith. That wasn't so hard to understand now was it.
As for religion, maybe you were indoctrinated to "believe religion without question", but in Islam we are required/encouraged to ask questions, to ponder over creation. The more you learn about the Creation, the closer it brings you to the Creator.
Just as a general principle in life you shouldn't believe anything without questioning it, a little objective cynicism ensures you won't be lead astray by the blind. I believe the Qur'an is the verbatim word of God, but not before i finished reading it!
I'll give you a good one. You're familiar with the history of the cities of Sodom and Gomorah right? Well, you should be.. They were utterly destroyed by brimstone (sulfur) that allegedly rained down from the sky. In the Bible and Qur'an we're given specific directions to where those cities once stood. So scientists got to work and went to those locations to study them. Sure enough they found ruins and evidence of the cities within a layer of ash and sulphur, and yet no sulphur in the surrounding areas! Okay, that's odd you might think, but it proves nothing. Well that's not all. They took samples of the sulphur and when they examined them they were amazed by the findings. Not only was the sulphur completely unique, like none other found in the world. It was white, while regular sulphur is yellow and it was nearly 100% pure, which is highly unusual because natural sulphur, by it's very nature is an element mixed with all types of impurities in it's volcanic origin.
So to sum up; God tells us in many scriptures what happened, why it happened, who it happened to and where it happened. We then, the intellectuals we are, go and investigate and find that indeed everything God said was true! So you see not just "tales of the ancients" but verifiable facts.
On the off chance that you didn't know about those cities, let me tell you. Not many people will teach you these things anymore. As i said there is an agenda working behind the scenes. They don't want you to know anything that might increase your faith or bring you closer to God. It's up to every individual to seek the truth for his or herself. In this age of info/tech, it's made easy. It's at your finger tips. You think religion being removed from the school curriculum is just civilisation "progressing"? No no no, it's far more sinister and nefarious than that.
You need to learn about these things. Your life depends on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't imagine how much regret people are going to feel some day.I get that all the time. Recently someone asked me to tell them a word, so I recollected the dictionary I read previously and just realised that there were so many words in it, I couldn't remember one of them.
Lol.. hate when i forget a.. a...
ummm...
aaaaa...
a word.
phew.
No but honestly though, i'm not pulling a fast one. I just need time to refresh my mind about the dozens of spiritually fortifying discoveries i've encountered.0 -
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Step away from the science a minute okay. Not everything has to be about evidence. My statement was intended to be thought provoking, not scientific.
You seem to have missed the point. It's not about whether the world is just a simulation. It's about the FACT that you BELIEVE it's not a simulation.
Observing the world and experimenting with it does not prove it's real. There are many scientific anomalies and freak experiment results outside of the norm, that haven't or can't be explained. Like for example the speed of light changing (one of the most constant observable measurements scientists use in countless applications). The speed of light to physicists is like the foundation of everything, which is why many won't even acknowledge this newish discovery that the speed of light might have actually changed in the past!
Anyway, that's beside the point. The point is you simply can not prove the world is real. You can't, you just can't (that's a fact). You can't prove it's real, therefore you are left with no alternative but to believe it's real. Hence all scientific observations and laws are based on faith. That wasn't so hard to understand now was it.
I never said anything about the belief that what's around us is real, who said I don't believe its a simulation? Who said I don't believe its a holograph projected from the edge of the universe . your idea that I must have a belief that the things around me are real is just wrong. If youre going to put words in my mouth and make an arguement around that go ahead , I won't be a part of it. I would prefer an intelligent debate .0 -
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What if your inquisitive skeptical mind (which is encouraged in Islam, as you say) results in you moving away from the Creator? Is that cool? No problems there, the Qur'an presumably has a verse somewhere that says "He who through genuine skeptical analysis comes to conclude that this is a load of superstitious fairytale nonsense—He shall be saved."
But Dave when you ponder over the creation, it inevitably brings you closer to God.
If i was with you walking through a forest, and we came across hundreds of branches on the ground that were neatly stacked in piles that spelt out "DAVE, THINK ABOUT IT".
Would you believe me if i said those branches fell from the tree and arranged themselves in that order just randomly by chance?
You wouldn't.
So how can anyone in their right mind conclude that all this beautiful diverse creation far more detailed and intricate than a bunch of sticks, came to be "just randomly by chance"?
Here's another good one (see, i'm slowly remembering): The Golden Ratio! Who knows about it? It's proof of intelligent design behind all natural creation, especially living creation. The golden ratio also known as divine proportion is 1.618 and it's found pretty much everywhere in nature. For example if you were to measure the length of your forearm and divide it into the length of your entire arm you'd get 1.618. Or the length of your hand divided into your forearm etc. It's everywhere!
It's also the most aesthetically pleasing ratio. Artists like Da Vinci knew this and so he would often incorporate that ratio in the proportions of the subject he was creating or even just paint on a canvas of golden ratio dimensions, say for example 100cm by 61.8cm.
Fibonacci the famous mathematician popularised the number using a formula which became known as Fibonacci's sequence, even though it was discovered long before him by some underrated Indian guy.
There's a lot of info about the golden ratio. Of course when you go to zio, i mean wikipedia it tells you little or nothing about how it's found in all nature and how it's proof of intelligent design. Surprised? Not any more. However, if you dig a little deeper and seek out the info you'll get it.
Now, for the amazing bit (as if it wasn't already amazing).
The golden ratio can also be found in the Qur'an.
The Ka'ba in Mecca was built by Abraham (peace be upon him). You know that black cube all dem Muslims "worship" lol. Anyway, he built it and it's regarded by Muslims as the first house of worship to God established on earth.
In one of the verses where the Ka'ba is mentioned in the Qur'an... It's easier if you just watch the video on the bottom of this page: h*t*t*p*:*/*/*w*w*w*.*islambosna.ba/forum/english/miracle-of-kaaba-golden-ratio-in-islam/So you came on here overflowing with confidence that you could convince us all, boasting about how you had tons of evidence....
But you don't remember any of it?
And the only bit you do remember turns out to be completely and utterly wrong and debunked with less than a minutes worth of research?
Are you really surprised that no one is buying what you're selling?
First of all, speak for yourself.
Second: i didn't claim i could convince anyone. If God chooses to leave someone go astray, nothing i say or do can change that. Likewise, if God guides someone, no one can misguide him. My intentions here were to raise awareness about a misrepresented hugely important document and the beauty, truth, guidance and proof of God that it offers to all mankind - if they want it.
My intention is directed more so to the agnostics. The ones who don't become arrogant, ungrateful and stubborn just as soon as they learn to walk, read and count. The ones who don't realise that the last revelation, the Qur'an, is intimately connected with the previous revelations that they are aware of. Many agnostics don't buy the whole Jesus (peace be upon him) is god thing, so they end up disregarding religion entirely, but yet they don't dismiss God altogether. So if they only knew about the last revelation, and what it says, they might have a better chance. As for the atheists - may you be guided.
Lastly; you keep referring to my false world is flat example, that i already explained was just an example of how people refuse to believe, and that i didn't mean to say it was something in the Qur'an. I'm a human being. I make mistakes. It's funny that you keep mentioning the one example i didn't intend to show as a miracle from the Qur'an. Yet blatantly ignore the half dozen examples i DID show.
1. Universe expanding
2. Paths of the planets (including sun, as the sun is also moving as was recently discovered)
3. Microscopic stages of development in womb
4. Fingerprints unique
5. All life originating from water
6. The mathematical synchronicity of the entire revelation and words within it
Papu, i'm not debating anyone. This is just me trying to inform. Just making the people aware that there is more scripture out there to scrutinise. The way i see it is if someone is going to decide to be an atheist (and every atheist decides at a specific moment in his/her life) then you aught to do yourself justice and at least investigate all the scriptures before making such a drastic DANGEROUS decision. You owe it to yourself.
Gordon, a few dozen might have been an overstatement I emphasis "might" because there's new discoveries found all the time, so we might have to wait a while.
There's plenty of other discoveries when it comes to abjad numbers (assigning letters a numerical value) but they're a little far out there. I want to show the rock solid proofs, like the one in the video above showing that the ka'ba is the golden ratio of the world!
Other far out discoveries are things like the year of the moon landing deciphered in a verse about the moon. Things like the atomic numbers of Iron and other elements being the same as the number of the chapter and verse and the fact that iron is what makes of the core of the earth (apparently) and the core of the earth is the very centre, and the very centre of the Qur'an is a chapter entitled "Iron". Or the year TV was invented, discovered in another way. Really, there's a lot. But as i said i'd prefer to not bother talking about them as they aren't what i'd call very convincing.0 -
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Yeah, I figured that would be your answer.
Critical thinking and debate is allowed within Islam, as long as it leads to the conclusion that we want.
Otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable that you be killed
Yes, critical thinking and reflection over creation is promoted in Islam. If doing so takes you further away from the Creator, then you're doing it wrong :P
Look, if you don't believe and then you think about creation then of course your mind is going to come up with every possible idea about how creation came to be, without a creator. Which is illogical, but how some ever, your mind will do it. It'll fill in the blanks, or block them out entirely!
On the other hand if you're an agnostic or believer, thinking about the same thing will enlighten you further.
It's never perfectly acceptable that anyone be killed in Islam. That nonsense about unbelievers and apostates being killed is grossly taken out of context and in some cases outright lies. Killing in Islam is a sensitive topic but absolutely just and fair, if you may only read about it instead of swallowing the lies of others, you'd see for yourself. God has perfected religion by Islam. It's imperative that laws of execution and warfare and other nasty aspects of society are made clear, in order for the society to maintain balance and justice. Allah (SWT) does this in the Qur'an and through His messengers.
Allah says in surah 2 : ayat 256
"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in false deities and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."I keep being it up because you keep ignoring it and then lying about it. I think it's indicative of the shakiness of your opinions and research.
Someone asked you to provide an example of a scientific revelation in the Quran. That's what you provided in response. It was wrong because you believed something without verifying it.
The Quran contains none of these things and offers zero scientific information about them.
1. How does it describe the universe as expanding? What rate does it say it's expanding? How does this match up with the current scientific understanding?
2. That's a lie. The Quran says the Earth doesn't move and that the Sun orbits it.
3. No it doesn't. The Quran aslo denys the existance of the ovum.
4. This isn't a revelation. It's easily and quickly discovered by observation.
5. The first contradicts the Genesis story you calm is fact in the bible, and again, it lacks any scientific or useful information.
6. Not scientific in the slightest.
Anyone who cares to read over the thread can see who the real liar is.0 -
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I don't understand what you mean. It's simple. The Qur'an tells us the world is round. We disagree and kill people for saying the world is not flat. We then later find out that the Qur'an was right. The people who were excommunicated or killed for saying so receive no apology!
What's the problem?
A) Eratosthenes of Cyrene knew the world was spherical* and through a logical process of mathematical reasoning and good approximation deduced the circumference of the earth to a level either 1.6% under (if he used the Egyptian stade) or 16% over (if he used the Greek one) in the third century BC. Any well educated mathematician from late Antiquity (the period when Islam was invented) would have known of this.
The qur'an doesn't say the world is spherical. It subscribes to the flat earth fallacy. Here is a nice little article citing proof.
*It is in fact an oblate spheroid, but that is getting nerdy. Calling it a sphere is good enough for most everyday purposes.0 -
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Why is no one talking about the miracle of Mecca video link i gave you?
It says a lot.. (your silence that is)
Hi 3power.
It seems kinda obvious from your posts that you don't accept Islam because of the "proofs" you have described to us, since so far in this thread most of them have been debunked and this has done little if anything to knock your faith. You haven't stopped believing in Islam or being a Muslim. So if you think about it, if these aren't why you believe then why would they be why we should believe either?
Might be something to ponder
Penny0 -
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The one that says that Mecca is on the 'golden ratio point' of the Earth? Leaving aside the curious method of getting to one location on a sphere by using the golden ratio, and the fact that I haven't checked their facts (north pole: magnetic north, or true north?) and that the Koran says that the world is flat: so what? What is the significance of Mecca being there? Do you think that it was created on that spot because it was holy, or that it is a holy place because stuff happened, and now we see that it's at a golden point on the earth, so therefore equals the muslim god?
What's the big deal here?
Thanks, i just remembered another scientific miracle in the Qur'an from your false statement.
Qur'an does not say the world is flat, on the contrary it says the earth is shaped like an ostrich egg! A perfect oblate spheroid! The similitude of an ostrich egg shape and the shape of the earth is irrefutable.
Of course there's a wealth of anti-Islamic sites that will oppose this, and everything else i said. The truth is the truth.Penny 4 Thoughts wrote: »Hi 3power.
It seems kinda obvious from your posts that you don't accept Islam because of the "proofs" you have described to us, since so far in this thread most of them have been debunked and this has done little if anything to knock your faith. You haven't stopped believing in Islam or being a Muslim. So if you think about it, if these aren't why you believe then why would they be why we should believe either?
Might be something to ponder
Penny
It's M3 power, get it right... jk
Most of the proofs i offered have not been debunked. They're just little pearls of knowledge found in the Qur'an, that happen to correlate perfectly with the world as we observe it today with all our fancy GPS systems and satellites.
I mean, as i said the Qur'an is not a science journal. Yet, everything it describes is very accurate in terms of scientific discoveries.
Having said that, it doesn't go into detail. It's vague, but yet everything it says is true and that's undeniable. I mean Qur'anic verses are very subtle and short. God isn't going to take us through creation step by step, just to appease us. However, the very few verses that He does offer about the physical world are ALL accurate. God says in the Qur'an that if the book was manmade, ye would have found some error within it. There's none! That's a brave statement when you consider the amount of "gambles" the author takes when describing things in nature 1400 years ago, that have only been discovered in the past few decades.
The Qur'an is a challenge to all mankind. Undefeated. God tells us to produce a book like it if we can. Undefeated.
It's not just the miracles and truths found within the book that makes me believe. It's the world today. It's the "conspiracies" that are all turning out to be true. It's the prophecies that have already come true. It's (small) signs that i've personally experienced. God tells us everyone receives one or two profound signs every year. If you accept them as signs, then you will be guided further. If you don't, and just brush them off as nothing or just as coincidences, then they'll avail you nothing.
Before i discovered the truth of Islam, i used to be really interested and terrified of things like exorcism and demons. At 16 years old when i found out that the exorcist for all of Munster, was based in a town next to mine. It made me happy in a backwards way. See, even though i found nothing that would increase my faith through Christianity at the time, the fact that there was a priest who's role was to fight demonic possessions, made me think; well if there's evil demons, then the opposite must also be true. You know what i mean?
No one can deny that there's a lot of unseen things that are left unexplained. People don't believe in God, yet believe in spirits and ghosts. If a person can subdue their arrogant ego and acknowledge that they don't know everything, it can help. Wisest is he who knows he does not know.
I can't make you believe. But i can impart my little feeble knowledge to make you think for yourself. The worst thing you can do is not think about it, and just pass through life. At least thinking about it is a start you know.0 -
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Even with a fairly good knowledge of religious beliefs, I've got to be honest here and say that I've no idea why anybody could find that funny.My surveying lecturer is an atheist. One day he was demonstrating a GPS surveying system and was talking about the technology it uses to accurately pinpoint a location within 3cm. He was very proud of what we have accomplished as a human race. I asked him how the GPS is calibrated. He says; "it's pointed towards the north star, and set off that" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL i was smiling for the day
Do share the gag with the classroom, 3power! 0 -
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Even with a fairly good knowledge of religious beliefs, I've got to be honest here and say that I've no idea why anybody could find that funny.
Do share the gag with the classroom, 3power!
Hm, okay maybe you had to be there. See the lecturer is always going on about there being no God. Which is way out of line but what ever. And he's of the type who become arrogant with a little knowledge. If you don't have a PhD your opinion is invalid to him, even though the greatest kings in history used to ask children for advice, because of their unbiased views on things.
So when he started talking about this fancy piece of surveying kit worth 8k and how awesome man is. I found it so amusing that even with all our fancy high-tech equipment, if you peel away the layers, we still rely on a star and on nature i.e God to show us the way. Even though he was oblivious to that fact and just said it so casually without even realising what he was saying.
I mean this is a perfect example of what i meant when i said it brings you closer to God when you consider His creation and the favours He bestows on us.
Do you really believe it's just by chance that there is a star perfectly placed in space, that ALWAYS shows us which way is north, no matter what position the earth is in. Do you really believe that's just a coincidence? We're here spinning around, whilst simultaneously flying around the sun at tens of thousands of miles a minute, yet this star is perfectly placed in line with the earths central axis, consistently showing us north.
AND the fact that God tells us He has placed the stars and moon in the heavens as signs, and to guide us and for us to keep count of time. I mean He directly tells us, no fooling around, and it's true!0 -
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