So what do ye know about Islam?

///3power

Is it just what the media tells you?

If a religion could literally, scientifically, mathematically and historically prove the existence of God, would you believe?

///3power

I did say "prove", as in cold hard evidence that can be scrutinised and verified in real time.

As in, well, PROOF of the existence of an intelligent conscious Creator!

Sulla Felix

1) I don't know too much about Islam. I know a few alacarteMuslim friends who I pester with the odd question when I get curious.
2)There's proof of all sorts of unpleasant truths. Doesn't mean we have to kowtow to them.

coffee_cake

Which god

Nodin

///3power wrote: »

I did say "prove", as in cold hard evidence that can be scrutinised and verified in real time.

As in, well, PROOF of the existence of an intelligent conscious Creator!

Right then...what is it?

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

Which god

The one who stole the cookies.

tommy2bad

///3power wrote: »

Is it just what the media tells you?

If a religion could literally, scientifically, mathematically and historically prove the existence of God, would you believe?

What's the connection between proving the existence of god and Islam?
I know quit a bit about Islam and it's history, some of it theology and a bit about the way it's divisions and strands play together (or not as the case may be)
I'm wondering if you are expecting this unproven god to be as described by Islam which of course leads to the question of which interpretation do you think he will most resemble?
We can do the same for Christianity or Judaism. So many different opinions on what god is like that actually finding him and getting him to explain himself would help.
Well it wouldn't help really, we would just say god was a protestant heretic if he turned out not to be like what we said he was, probably try to get him to repent and change his sinful ways.

///3power

Sulla Felix wrote: »

1) I don't know too much about Islam. I know a few alacarteMuslim friends who I pester with the odd question when I get curious.
2)There's proof of all sorts of unpleasant truths. Doesn't mean we have to kowtow to them.

But this is the ultimate truth. Nothing unpleasant about it, on the contrary a most beautiful truth.

So what you're saying Sulla is that even if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him. On the other hand He promised you a grievous chastisement if you didn't. What you're saying is you still wouldn't serve Him anyway?


Bluewolf, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael.

tommy2bad wrote: »

What's the connection between proving the existence of god and Islam?
I know quit a bit about Islam and it's history, some of it theology and a bit about the way it's divisions and strands play together (or not as the case may be)
I'm wondering if you are expecting this unproven god to be as described by Islam which of course leads to the question of which interpretation do you think he will most resemble?
We can do the same for Christianity or Judaism. So many different opinions on what god is like that actually finding him and getting him to explain himself would help.
Well it wouldn't help really, we would just say god was a protestant heretic if he turned out not to be like what we said he was, probably try to get him to repent and change his sinful ways.

No no i'm not talking about anyone's or any sects interpretation or perspective of God. This isn't about opinions. It's not even about religion.

It's just about proof. Regardless of personal or collective opinions.

For any agnostics out there, i understand the difficulty.

So i'd like to raise awareness that indeed PROOF of God exists in the final revelation He sent down.

Nodin, there's literally too much proof to even recall and write. Do some online searches of miracles in the Qur'an to find out more. I'm not talking hocus pocus "if you add that number, and then divide it by 666 and then bla bla bla". I'm talking solid evidence.

Feck it i might aswel give a few examples, even though my coffee machine is now overheating.

For a start, every piece of scientific info found in the Qur'an that can be verified IS verified. Such as universe expansion. All life originating from water. The solar system and the paths of the planets. Fingerprints being unique to everyone. Microscopic stages of human development in the womb. and on and on and on.

80% of scientific knowledge in Qur'an has been confirmed. Scientific methods can't confirm or debunk the remaining 20% yet.

Then there's the mathematical miracles. Which honestly will blow your mind considering the prophet who used to go into trances and convulsions while revealing this revelation, was an illiterate orphan.

In English the biggest anagrams we have are like "level" and "racecar". In the Qur'an, there's full verses that are anagram. The poetic verses in the Qur'an are regarded by all as something that has never been surpassed in terms of eloquence.

Every single letter is accounted for. The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and unchanged since it was revealed 1400 years ago. When people uploaded the Qur'an into computers what they discovered was mind bobbling. The book is alive with all manners of signs and miracles. Such as the word man appearing 23 times and the word woman appearing 23 times, and the fact that it takes 23 chromosomes to create a human. Or the word day appearing 365 times, or the word days (plural) appearing 30 times. Or the word moon appearing 12 times.
Or if you count how many times the word sea appears, and divide it into how many times the word land appears, you get the exact same ratio of land is to sea on earth.

I could honestly go on and on because there's so many signs and proofs. If you want to achieve contentment in this life and develop a relationship with your Creator, it is so much easier when you have so many reassuring signs.

coffee_cake

Eh... no thanks

Turtwig

If the Qur'an knew all this science why did we have to spend centuries discovering them?

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh... no thanks

No to a cookie?

///3power

Turtwig wrote: »

If the Qur'an knew all this science why did we have to spend centuries discovering them?

Maybe people didn't believe and they needed to discover/prove it themselves?


Knowledge is vital. It's why we have intellect. Not to sit around and become zombified, but to use it. The word knowledge is the second most used word in the Qur'an.

"READ" was the very first word revealed to the final prophet.

Pherekydes

///3power wrote: »

In English the biggest anagrams we have are like "level" and "racecar".

Do you mean palindromes?

"Stop!" nine myriad murmur. "Put up rum, rum, dairymen, in pots." is a palindrome.

This proves that dairymen are gods.

Revolt on Yale, Democrats edit "Noon-Tide Star." Come, delay not lover.

Must mean god went to Yale. And was a democrat.

Standman

Waiting until science discovers something and then going back to the Quran to look for its "proof" of this discovery, is no proof at all.

the_syco

///3power wrote: »

So what you're saying Sulla is that even if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him. On the other hand He promised you a grievous chastisement if you didn't. What you're saying is you still wouldn't serve Him anyway?

This god thing sounds like a right ****. Almost sounds like Hitler, except worse.

///3power wrote: »

It's just about proof. Regardless of personal or collective opinions.

Let me guess; you don't have this proof?

///3power wrote: »

So i'd like to raise awareness that indeed PROOF of God exists in the final revelation He sent down.

Still awaiting this proof.

///3power wrote: »

Nodin, there's literally too much proof to even recall and write. Do some online searches of miracles in the Qur'an to find out more. I'm not talking hocus pocus "if you add that number, and then divide it by 666 and then bla bla bla". I'm talking solid evidence.

Ah, so it's one of these "do X as proof of god, but do Y as proof of free will god gave us" type of crap?

///3power wrote: »

Feck it i might aswel give a few examples, even though my coffee machine is now overheating.

Awaits proof.

///3power wrote: »

For a start, every piece of scientific info found in the Qur'an that can be verified IS verified. Such as universe expansion. All life originating from water. The solar system and the paths of the planets. Fingerprints being unique to everyone. Microscopic stages of human development in the womb. and on and on and on.

80% of scientific knowledge in Qur'an has been confirmed. Scientific methods can't confirm or debunk the remaining 20% yet.

This Qur'an book; it was written by your god, or by humans?

///3power wrote: »

Then there's the mathematical miracles. Which honestly will blow your mind considering the prophet who used to go into trances and convulsions while revealing this revelation, was an illiterate orphan.

Drugs are bad, mmmmmmmmmmm'kay?

///3power wrote: »

Such as the word man appearing 23 times and the word woman appearing 23 times, and the fact that it takes 23 chromosomes to create a human. Or the word day appearing 365 times, or the word days (plural) appearing 30 times. Or the word moon appearing 12 times.
Or if you count how many times the word sea appears, and divide it into how many times the word land appears, you get the exact same ratio of land is to sea on earth.

Sounds like coincidental bullsh|t. Was the ratio correct when the Qur'an was written, or now?

///3power wrote: »

I could honestly go on and on because there's so many signs and proofs.

Are you saying Nostradamus is a god?

=-=

All the above still doesn't prove that your god exists. If anything, it proves humans are intelligent.

Pherekydes

///3power wrote: »

Or the word day appearing 365 times...

How could god have gotten it so wrong? Every schoolchild knows there are approximately 365¼ days in a year.

Mark Hamill

///3power wrote: »

So what you're saying Sulla is that even if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him. On the other hand He promised you a grievous chastisement if you didn't. What you're saying is you still wouldn't serve Him anyway?

Why would such a god want us to serve him?

The rest of your post is an argument against a divine source for the Quran. If such a god did indeed inspire the quran, then such a god would have known that putting scientific "knowledge" in the forms of metaphor, rhetoric and verse would have only made it that knowledge much more difficult for normal people to follow or even realise is there. Humans figured this out fairly quickly, it's why real scientific papers rarely contain metaphor, rhetoric and verse.
Also, the fact that most of these so called scientific miracles have only very recently been put forward (i.e. long after real science discovered and explained them) just proves that all the quran has is ambiguous metaphorical verses easily twisted to appear to say what any reader wants them to say - a common hallmark of any long standing religious text.

///3power

Pherekydes wrote: »

Do you mean palindromes?

"Stop!" nine myriad murmur. "Put up rum, rum, dairymen, in pots." is a palindrome.

This proves that dairymen are gods.



Must mean god went to Yale. And was a democrat.

lol sorry yea palindrome. The thing is though, it's one thing to have a palindrome. But it's another for it to make any sort of sense. And it's a WHOoooooooole different kettle of fish for it not only to make sense, but to also have profound wisdom and guidance. AND tie in with the rest of the book in terms of word and letter count. As i said, the miracles i listed are just a few examples of many (and many yet to be discovered). Every odd chapter and every even chapter collectively also are perfected synchronised. Everything is perfectly synchronised: angel & satan both appear 88 times each. Earth and afterlife both appear 115 times each. Faith and infidelity appear 25 times each. Paradise and hell appear 77 times each.

Again, i could continue, but there's no need. If you can't see that it can't be from a man to create such a book then you're blind. It's one thing to create a book with words in synchronation. It's quite a different thing to do it, and have it be a source of wisdom and guidance, and scientific and historical truths, and unparalleled beauty and eloquence.

Standman wrote: »

Waiting until science discovers something and then going back to the Quran to look for its "proof" of this discovery, is no proof at all.

I don't understand what you mean. It's simple. The Qur'an tells us the world is round. We disagree and kill people for saying the world is not flat. We then later find out that the Qur'an was right. The people who were excommunicated or killed for saying so receive no apology!

What's the problem?

King Mob

///3power wrote: »

I don't understand what you mean. It's simple. The Qur'an tells us the world is round. We disagree and kill people for saying the world is not flat. We then later find out that the Qur'an was right. The people who were excommunicated or killed for saying so receive no apology!

What's the problem?

People knew the Earth was round a good 800 years before the Quran.

MagicMarker

I would accept proof of the existence of God, but I won't accept "proof".

legspin

Gonna get a smack for this I fear but I'm only being honest.

///3power wrote: »

.... the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael.

If this entity does exist, I don't care if he came down and knelt in front of me offering anything I wanted. As far as I am concerned he's a complete and utter little shít and I will have nothing to do with him.

However, this is all moot as any evidence you have is nonsense, as this entity is the figment of the superstitious nightmares of ignorant sheep herders.

Gordon

///3power wrote: »

So what you're saying Sulla is that even if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him.

Do you receive everything that you want?

///3power

Pherekydes wrote: »

How could god have gotten it so wrong? Every schoolchild knows there are approximately 365¼ days in a year.

LOLLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why would such a god want us to serve him?

The rest of your post is an argument against a divine source for the Quran. If such a god did indeed inspire the quran, then such a god would have known that putting scientific "knowledge" in the forms of metaphor, rhetoric and verse would have only made it that knowledge much more difficult for normal people to follow or even realise is there. Humans figured this out fairly quickly, it's why real scientific papers rarely contain metaphor, rhetoric and verse.
Also, the fact that most of these so called scientific miracles have only very recently been put forward (i.e. long after real science discovered and explained them) just proves that all the quran has is ambiguous metaphorical verses easily twisted to appear to say what any reader wants them to say - a common hallmark of any long standing religious text.

All creation serves and praises God. It's the only reason He created it! As for why He wants us to serve Him, i don't know. Like, i know we're here to serve, but as for the ultimate reason - i have my own personal theories but that's all they are.

Who said anything about metaphors? The Qur'an speaks directly. It doesn't shy away from sensitive subjects or talk cryptically. It's very easy to read and understand. It's straight forward and plain. The more you look into it though, the more meaning you can find. The One who has complete knowledge inspired it. So therefore a brilliant mind could read a verse ("ayat", meaning sign) and see the ordinary meaning that a 5 year old could interpret, and also see a deeper meaning for example by the ways the words are arranged or by the number of the words etc.

King Mob wrote: »

People knew the Earth was round a good 800 years before the Quran.

I was using the "world is flat" argument just as an example.

TwoShedsJackson

The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and unchanged since it was revealed 1400 years ago. When people uploaded the Qur'an into computers what they discovered was mind bobbling. The book is alive with all manners of signs and miracles. Such as the word man appearing 23 times and the word woman appearing 23 times, and the fact that it takes 23 chromosomes to create a human. Or the word day appearing 365 times, or the word days (plural) appearing 30 times. Or the word moon appearing 12 times.
Or if you count how many times the word sea appears, and divide it into how many times the word land appears, you get the exact same ratio of land is to sea on earth.

Also known as coincidences, or starting with the facts and working back to a proposition which suits you.

Kudos for the 'mind bobbling' bit though.

5uspect

///3power wrote: »

I was using the "world is flat" argument just as an example.

An example of...proof?

King Mob

///3power wrote: »

I was using the "world is flat" argument just as an example.

It's an example that is wrong.
The Quran does not contain divinely revealed information about the shape of the Earth.
The Earth was know to be round for a long time before the Quran was written.

When some one asked you to provide an example of divinely inspired scientific, you provide one that is wrong because you didn't actually research it.
This does not inspire confidence.

Can you provide an example that does not fall apart with 2 seconds of research?

The Quran says many many things that aren't true about reality: wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur'an

Hoagy

///3power wrote: »

Everything is perfectly synchronised: angel & satan both appear 88 times each. Earth and afterlife both appear 115 times each. Faith and infidelity appear 25 times each. Paradise and hell appear 77 times each.

Not according to this clever little tool.

Lies, damned lies and statistics?

wretcheddomain

The Q'uran is probably the most unscientific book one could find. In science, you develop a theory only after finding evidence to prove that theory. You're suggesting that we should start with the theory and work backwards to find the evidence to prove it. And the Earth isn't round, it's an oblate spheroid...but leaving that to one side. So as well as violating a fundamental scientific principle, what else can we find that's unscientific.

Well, you mentioned that all life comes from water. A chap called Thales of Miletus first came to this conclusion around 500BC so it certainly wasn't a novel idea. In fact, let's back that up with the Q'uran, why not?

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?”

You claimed above that nothing contradicts modern science, well, you've obviously overlooked this. We know from cosmology that the heavens and the Earth were not one piece and parted but rather the Earth was formed violently from the excrement of a nebula. Very different account I'm sure you'll agree - one is filled with theology and faith while the other is filled with reality and evidence.

Let's take a look at 71:15, "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another" - He is stating this with no evidence, therefore unscientific, therefore dismiss-able.

Probably the most interesting attack against science in Islam comes from the shooting star argument, a concise summary of this argument can be found here.

You have no legs to stand on - the Q'uran is wholly unscientific and the retrospective nature of the endeavour is something to be suspicious of and not proud of.

///3power

Gordon wrote: »

Do you receive everything that you want?

Is this a trick question? I say yes, you say "i want (insert depraved, evil and immoral act here).

When you obey what the scriptures say, you inevitably become "purer". Your desires and intentions change. So, when once i enjoyed countless hours of mindless FPS video games while smoking J's and being an all round POS. Now, i enjoy the thoughts of my charity reaching others and making my parents happy and being someone who can contribute in a positive way to society. Not saying you can't enjoy those things without religion. Just saying that, personally, it changed my desires and what i want. Before, i wanted wealth and an endless supply of tail, beer and green. Now i want a pious self respecting wife and simple life and good death.

legspin wrote: »

Gonna get a smack for this....

May you be guided.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Also known as coincidences, or starting with the facts and working back to a proposition which suits you.

Kudos for the 'mind bobbling' bit though.

How many coincidences does it take for them to start Not being just coincidences?

Lol bobbling. When i heard Cameron Diaz in an interview using the word "discombobulate" i was suuure she made it up xD

Anyway, sorry i made a mistake. It takes 46 chromosomes to make a baby. 23 from each sex. Each sex is mentioned 23 times in Qur'an. I guess that's a total of 46 coincidences then.... -_-

5uspect wrote: »

An example of...proof?

Lol, the proofs i was sharing were in previous posts. The earth being flat was just a side argument (nothing got to do with proofs in Qur'an). But obviously ye're all jumping on that like vultures to try and discredit me, and justify your own (non)beliefs.

King Mob wrote: »

It's an example that is wrong.
The Quran does not contain divinely revealed information about the shape of the Earth.
The Earth was know to be round for a long time before the Quran was written.

When some one asked you to provide an example of divinely inspired scientific, you provide one that is wrong because you didn't actually research it.
This does not inspire confidence.

Can you provide an example that does not fall apart with 2 seconds or research?

The Quran says many many things that aren't true about reality: wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur'an

dude, anything that starts with wiki is not to be trusted! internet rule 101.

If you want to talk about research. Research who has bought up all main stream media including the rights to edit wiki sites, for their own agenda. They give you 90% ordinary truth and then mix in their lies.

Gordon

///3power wrote: »

Is this a trick question? I say yes, you say "i want (insert depraved, evil and immoral act here).

No, I'm asking you personally, so is that a yes? Do you actually receive everything that you want?

wretcheddomain

///3power wrote: »

dude, anything that starts with wiki is not to be trusted! internet rule 101.

If you want to talk about research. Research who has bought up all main stream media including the rights to edit wiki sites, for their own agenda. They give you 90% ordinary truth and then mix in their lies.

Alright, you got me here. Let's distrust WiKi because anybody can edit it to fix their agenda but let's trust Mohammad who heard voices in his head and had no reason to forward an agenda through editing his thoughts.

Logical consistency right there. :rolleyes: