So what do ye know about Islam?

///3power

Is it just what the media tells you?

If a religion could literally, scientifically, mathematically and historically prove the existence of God, would you believe?

///3power

I did say "prove", as in cold hard evidence that can be scrutinised and verified in real time.

As in, well, PROOF of the existence of an intelligent conscious Creator!

Sulla Felix

1) I don't know too much about Islam. I know a few alacarteMuslim friends who I pester with the odd question when I get curious.
2)There's proof of all sorts of unpleasant truths. Doesn't mean we have to kowtow to them.

Which god

Nodin

///3power wrote: »

I did say "prove", as in cold hard evidence that can be scrutinised and verified in real time.

As in, well, PROOF of the existence of an intelligent conscious Creator!

Right then...what is it?

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

Which god

The one who stole the cookies.

tommy2bad

///3power wrote: »

Is it just what the media tells you?

If a religion could literally, scientifically, mathematically and historically prove the existence of God, would you believe?

What's the connection between proving the existence of god and Islam?
I know quit a bit about Islam and it's history, some of it theology and a bit about the way it's divisions and strands play together (or not as the case may be)
I'm wondering if you are expecting this unproven god to be as described by Islam which of course leads to the question of which interpretation do you think he will most resemble?
We can do the same for Christianity or Judaism. So many different opinions on what god is like that actually finding him and getting him to explain himself would help.
Well it wouldn't help really, we would just say god was a protestant heretic if he turned out not to be like what we said he was, probably try to get him to repent and change his sinful ways.

///3power

Sulla Felix wrote: »

1) I don't know too much about Islam. I know a few alacarteMuslim friends who I pester with the odd question when I get curious.
2)There's proof of all sorts of unpleasant truths. Doesn't mean we have to kowtow to them.

But this is the ultimate truth. Nothing unpleasant about it, on the contrary a most beautiful truth.

So what you're saying Sulla is that even if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him. On the other hand He promised you a grievous chastisement if you didn't. What you're saying is you still wouldn't serve Him anyway?


Bluewolf, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael.

tommy2bad wrote: »

What's the connection between proving the existence of god and Islam?
I know quit a bit about Islam and it's history, some of it theology and a bit about the way it's divisions and strands play together (or not as the case may be)
I'm wondering if you are expecting this unproven god to be as described by Islam which of course leads to the question of which interpretation do you think he will most resemble?
We can do the same for Christianity or Judaism. So many different opinions on what god is like that actually finding him and getting him to explain himself would help.
Well it wouldn't help really, we would just say god was a protestant heretic if he turned out not to be like what we said he was, probably try to get him to repent and change his sinful ways.

No no i'm not talking about anyone's or any sects interpretation or perspective of God. This isn't about opinions. It's not even about religion.

It's just about proof. Regardless of personal or collective opinions.

For any agnostics out there, i understand the difficulty.

So i'd like to raise awareness that indeed PROOF of God exists in the final revelation He sent down.

Nodin, there's literally too much proof to even recall and write. Do some online searches of miracles in the Qur'an to find out more. I'm not talking hocus pocus "if you add that number, and then divide it by 666 and then bla bla bla". I'm talking solid evidence.

Feck it i might aswel give a few examples, even though my coffee machine is now overheating.

For a start, every piece of scientific info found in the Qur'an that can be verified IS verified. Such as universe expansion. All life originating from water. The solar system and the paths of the planets. Fingerprints being unique to everyone. Microscopic stages of human development in the womb. and on and on and on.

80% of scientific knowledge in Qur'an has been confirmed. Scientific methods can't confirm or debunk the remaining 20% yet.

Then there's the mathematical miracles. Which honestly will blow your mind considering the prophet who used to go into trances and convulsions while revealing this revelation, was an illiterate orphan.

In English the biggest anagrams we have are like "level" and "racecar". In the Qur'an, there's full verses that are anagram. The poetic verses in the Qur'an are regarded by all as something that has never been surpassed in terms of eloquence.

Every single letter is accounted for. The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and unchanged since it was revealed 1400 years ago. When people uploaded the Qur'an into computers what they discovered was mind bobbling. The book is alive with all manners of signs and miracles. Such as the word man appearing 23 times and the word woman appearing 23 times, and the fact that it takes 23 chromosomes to create a human. Or the word day appearing 365 times, or the word days (plural) appearing 30 times. Or the word moon appearing 12 times.
Or if you count how many times the word sea appears, and divide it into how many times the word land appears, you get the exact same ratio of land is to sea on earth.

I could honestly go on and on because there's so many signs and proofs. If you want to achieve contentment in this life and develop a relationship with your Creator, it is so much easier when you have so many reassuring signs.

Eh... no thanks

Turtwig

If the Qur'an knew all this science why did we have to spend centuries discovering them?

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh... no thanks

No to a cookie?

///3power

Turtwig wrote: »

If the Qur'an knew all this science why did we have to spend centuries discovering them?

Maybe people didn't believe and they needed to discover/prove it themselves?


Knowledge is vital. It's why we have intellect. Not to sit around and become zombified, but to use it. The word knowledge is the second most used word in the Qur'an.

"READ" was the very first word revealed to the final prophet.

Pherekydes

///3power wrote: »

In English the biggest anagrams we have are like "level" and "racecar".

Do you mean palindromes?

"Stop!" nine myriad murmur. "Put up rum, rum, dairymen, in pots." is a palindrome.

This proves that dairymen are gods.

Revolt on Yale, Democrats edit "Noon-Tide Star." Come, delay not lover.

Must mean god went to Yale. And was a democrat.

Standman

Waiting until science discovers something and then going back to the Quran to look for its "proof" of this discovery, is no proof at all.

the_syco

///3power wrote: »

So what you're saying Sulla is that even if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him. On the other hand He promised you a grievous chastisement if you didn't. What you're saying is you still wouldn't serve Him anyway?

This god thing sounds like a right ****. Almost sounds like Hitler, except worse.

///3power wrote: »

It's just about proof. Regardless of personal or collective opinions.

Let me guess; you don't have this proof?

///3power wrote: »

So i'd like to raise awareness that indeed PROOF of God exists in the final revelation He sent down.

Still awaiting this proof.

///3power wrote: »

Nodin, there's literally too much proof to even recall and write. Do some online searches of miracles in the Qur'an to find out more. I'm not talking hocus pocus "if you add that number, and then divide it by 666 and then bla bla bla". I'm talking solid evidence.

Ah, so it's one of these "do X as proof of god, but do Y as proof of free will god gave us" type of crap?

///3power wrote: »

Feck it i might aswel give a few examples, even though my coffee machine is now overheating.

Awaits proof.

///3power wrote: »

For a start, every piece of scientific info found in the Qur'an that can be verified IS verified. Such as universe expansion. All life originating from water. The solar system and the paths of the planets. Fingerprints being unique to everyone. Microscopic stages of human development in the womb. and on and on and on.

80% of scientific knowledge in Qur'an has been confirmed. Scientific methods can't confirm or debunk the remaining 20% yet.

This Qur'an book; it was written by your god, or by humans?

///3power wrote: »

Then there's the mathematical miracles. Which honestly will blow your mind considering the prophet who used to go into trances and convulsions while revealing this revelation, was an illiterate orphan.

Drugs are bad, mmmmmmmmmmm'kay?

///3power wrote: »

Such as the word man appearing 23 times and the word woman appearing 23 times, and the fact that it takes 23 chromosomes to create a human. Or the word day appearing 365 times, or the word days (plural) appearing 30 times. Or the word moon appearing 12 times.
Or if you count how many times the word sea appears, and divide it into how many times the word land appears, you get the exact same ratio of land is to sea on earth.

Sounds like coincidental bullsh|t. Was the ratio correct when the Qur'an was written, or now?

///3power wrote: »

I could honestly go on and on because there's so many signs and proofs.

Are you saying Nostradamus is a god?

=-=

All the above still doesn't prove that your god exists. If anything, it proves humans are intelligent.

Pherekydes

///3power wrote: »

Or the word day appearing 365 times...

How could god have gotten it so wrong? Every schoolchild knows there are approximately 365¼ days in a year.

Mark Hamill

///3power wrote: »

So what you're saying Sulla is that even if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him. On the other hand He promised you a grievous chastisement if you didn't. What you're saying is you still wouldn't serve Him anyway?

Why would such a god want us to serve him?

The rest of your post is an argument against a divine source for the Quran. If such a god did indeed inspire the quran, then such a god would have known that putting scientific "knowledge" in the forms of metaphor, rhetoric and verse would have only made it that knowledge much more difficult for normal people to follow or even realise is there. Humans figured this out fairly quickly, it's why real scientific papers rarely contain metaphor, rhetoric and verse.
Also, the fact that most of these so called scientific miracles have only very recently been put forward (i.e. long after real science discovered and explained them) just proves that all the quran has is ambiguous metaphorical verses easily twisted to appear to say what any reader wants them to say - a common hallmark of any long standing religious text.

///3power

Pherekydes wrote: »

Do you mean palindromes?

"Stop!" nine myriad murmur. "Put up rum, rum, dairymen, in pots." is a palindrome.

This proves that dairymen are gods.



Must mean god went to Yale. And was a democrat.

lol sorry yea palindrome. The thing is though, it's one thing to have a palindrome. But it's another for it to make any sort of sense. And it's a WHOoooooooole different kettle of fish for it not only to make sense, but to also have profound wisdom and guidance. AND tie in with the rest of the book in terms of word and letter count. As i said, the miracles i listed are just a few examples of many (and many yet to be discovered). Every odd chapter and every even chapter collectively also are perfected synchronised. Everything is perfectly synchronised: angel & satan both appear 88 times each. Earth and afterlife both appear 115 times each. Faith and infidelity appear 25 times each. Paradise and hell appear 77 times each.

Again, i could continue, but there's no need. If you can't see that it can't be from a man to create such a book then you're blind. It's one thing to create a book with words in synchronation. It's quite a different thing to do it, and have it be a source of wisdom and guidance, and scientific and historical truths, and unparalleled beauty and eloquence.

Standman wrote: »

Waiting until science discovers something and then going back to the Quran to look for its "proof" of this discovery, is no proof at all.

I don't understand what you mean. It's simple. The Qur'an tells us the world is round. We disagree and kill people for saying the world is not flat. We then later find out that the Qur'an was right. The people who were excommunicated or killed for saying so receive no apology!

What's the problem?

///3power

///3power wrote: »

I don't understand what you mean. It's simple. The Qur'an tells us the world is round. We disagree and kill people for saying the world is not flat. We then later find out that the Qur'an was right. The people who were excommunicated or killed for saying so receive no apology!

What's the problem?

People knew the Earth was round a good 800 years before the Quran.

MagicMarker

I would accept proof of the existence of God, but I won't accept "proof".

legspin

Gonna get a smack for this I fear but I'm only being honest.

///3power wrote: »

.... the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael.

If this entity does exist, I don't care if he came down and knelt in front of me offering anything I wanted. As far as I am concerned he's a complete and utter little shít and I will have nothing to do with him.

However, this is all moot as any evidence you have is nonsense, as this entity is the figment of the superstitious nightmares of ignorant sheep herders.

Gordon

///3power wrote: »

So what you're saying Sulla is that even if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him.

Do you receive everything that you want?

///3power

Pherekydes wrote: »

How could god have gotten it so wrong? Every schoolchild knows there are approximately 365¼ days in a year.

LOLLL

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why would such a god want us to serve him?

The rest of your post is an argument against a divine source for the Quran. If such a god did indeed inspire the quran, then such a god would have known that putting scientific "knowledge" in the forms of metaphor, rhetoric and verse would have only made it that knowledge much more difficult for normal people to follow or even realise is there. Humans figured this out fairly quickly, it's why real scientific papers rarely contain metaphor, rhetoric and verse.
Also, the fact that most of these so called scientific miracles have only very recently been put forward (i.e. long after real science discovered and explained them) just proves that all the quran has is ambiguous metaphorical verses easily twisted to appear to say what any reader wants them to say - a common hallmark of any long standing religious text.

All creation serves and praises God. It's the only reason He created it! As for why He wants us to serve Him, i don't know. Like, i know we're here to serve, but as for the ultimate reason - i have my own personal theories but that's all they are.

Who said anything about metaphors? The Qur'an speaks directly. It doesn't shy away from sensitive subjects or talk cryptically. It's very easy to read and understand. It's straight forward and plain. The more you look into it though, the more meaning you can find. The One who has complete knowledge inspired it. So therefore a brilliant mind could read a verse ("ayat", meaning sign) and see the ordinary meaning that a 5 year old could interpret, and also see a deeper meaning for example by the ways the words are arranged or by the number of the words etc.

King Mob wrote: »

People knew the Earth was round a good 800 years before the Quran.

I was using the "world is flat" argument just as an example.

TwoShedsJackson

The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and unchanged since it was revealed 1400 years ago. When people uploaded the Qur'an into computers what they discovered was mind bobbling. The book is alive with all manners of signs and miracles. Such as the word man appearing 23 times and the word woman appearing 23 times, and the fact that it takes 23 chromosomes to create a human. Or the word day appearing 365 times, or the word days (plural) appearing 30 times. Or the word moon appearing 12 times.
Or if you count how many times the word sea appears, and divide it into how many times the word land appears, you get the exact same ratio of land is to sea on earth.

Also known as coincidences, or starting with the facts and working back to a proposition which suits you.

Kudos for the 'mind bobbling' bit though.

5uspect

///3power wrote: »

I was using the "world is flat" argument just as an example.

An example of...proof?

///3power

///3power wrote: »

I was using the "world is flat" argument just as an example.

It's an example that is wrong.
The Quran does not contain divinely revealed information about the shape of the Earth.
The Earth was know to be round for a long time before the Quran was written.

When some one asked you to provide an example of divinely inspired scientific, you provide one that is wrong because you didn't actually research it.
This does not inspire confidence.

Can you provide an example that does not fall apart with 2 seconds of research?

The Quran says many many things that aren't true about reality: wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur'an

Hoagy

///3power wrote: »

Everything is perfectly synchronised: angel & satan both appear 88 times each. Earth and afterlife both appear 115 times each. Faith and infidelity appear 25 times each. Paradise and hell appear 77 times each.

Not according to this clever little tool.

Lies, damned lies and statistics?

wretcheddomain

The Q'uran is probably the most unscientific book one could find. In science, you develop a theory only after finding evidence to prove that theory. You're suggesting that we should start with the theory and work backwards to find the evidence to prove it. And the Earth isn't round, it's an oblate spheroid...but leaving that to one side. So as well as violating a fundamental scientific principle, what else can we find that's unscientific.

Well, you mentioned that all life comes from water. A chap called Thales of Miletus first came to this conclusion around 500BC so it certainly wasn't a novel idea. In fact, let's back that up with the Q'uran, why not?

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?”

You claimed above that nothing contradicts modern science, well, you've obviously overlooked this. We know from cosmology that the heavens and the Earth were not one piece and parted but rather the Earth was formed violently from the excrement of a nebula. Very different account I'm sure you'll agree - one is filled with theology and faith while the other is filled with reality and evidence.

Let's take a look at 71:15, "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another" - He is stating this with no evidence, therefore unscientific, therefore dismiss-able.

Probably the most interesting attack against science in Islam comes from the shooting star argument, a concise summary of this argument can be found here.

You have no legs to stand on - the Q'uran is wholly unscientific and the retrospective nature of the endeavour is something to be suspicious of and not proud of.

///3power

Gordon wrote: »

Do you receive everything that you want?

Is this a trick question? I say yes, you say "i want (insert depraved, evil and immoral act here).

When you obey what the scriptures say, you inevitably become "purer". Your desires and intentions change. So, when once i enjoyed countless hours of mindless FPS video games while smoking J's and being an all round POS. Now, i enjoy the thoughts of my charity reaching others and making my parents happy and being someone who can contribute in a positive way to society. Not saying you can't enjoy those things without religion. Just saying that, personally, it changed my desires and what i want. Before, i wanted wealth and an endless supply of tail, beer and green. Now i want a pious self respecting wife and simple life and good death.

legspin wrote: »

Gonna get a smack for this....

May you be guided.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Also known as coincidences, or starting with the facts and working back to a proposition which suits you.

Kudos for the 'mind bobbling' bit though.

How many coincidences does it take for them to start Not being just coincidences?

Lol bobbling. When i heard Cameron Diaz in an interview using the word "discombobulate" i was suuure she made it up xD

Anyway, sorry i made a mistake. It takes 46 chromosomes to make a baby. 23 from each sex. Each sex is mentioned 23 times in Qur'an. I guess that's a total of 46 coincidences then.... -_-

5uspect wrote: »

An example of...proof?

Lol, the proofs i was sharing were in previous posts. The earth being flat was just a side argument (nothing got to do with proofs in Qur'an). But obviously ye're all jumping on that like vultures to try and discredit me, and justify your own (non)beliefs.

King Mob wrote: »

It's an example that is wrong.
The Quran does not contain divinely revealed information about the shape of the Earth.
The Earth was know to be round for a long time before the Quran was written.

When some one asked you to provide an example of divinely inspired scientific, you provide one that is wrong because you didn't actually research it.
This does not inspire confidence.

Can you provide an example that does not fall apart with 2 seconds or research?

The Quran says many many things that aren't true about reality: wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur'an

dude, anything that starts with wiki is not to be trusted! internet rule 101.

If you want to talk about research. Research who has bought up all main stream media including the rights to edit wiki sites, for their own agenda. They give you 90% ordinary truth and then mix in their lies.

Gordon

///3power wrote: »

Is this a trick question? I say yes, you say "i want (insert depraved, evil and immoral act here).

No, I'm asking you personally, so is that a yes? Do you actually receive everything that you want?

wretcheddomain

///3power wrote: »

dude, anything that starts with wiki is not to be trusted! internet rule 101.

If you want to talk about research. Research who has bought up all main stream media including the rights to edit wiki sites, for their own agenda. They give you 90% ordinary truth and then mix in their lies.

Alright, you got me here. Let's distrust WiKi because anybody can edit it to fix their agenda but let's trust Mohammad who heard voices in his head and had no reason to forward an agenda through editing his thoughts.

Logical consistency right there. :rolleyes:

///3power

///3power wrote: »

dude, anything that starts with wiki is not to be trusted! internet rule 101.

If you want to talk about research. Research who has bought up all main stream media including the rights to edit wiki sites, for their own agenda. They give you 90% ordinary truth and then mix in their lies.

So you're saying that there is nothing in the Quran that is scientifically inaccurate and all of those on the wiki are made up?

And can you provide an example of a scientific truth in the Quran that predates the actual scientific discovery?

And can you explain why you used a false example?

TwoShedsJackson

///3power wrote: »

Anyway, sorry i made a mistake. It takes 46 chromosomes to make a baby. 23 from each sex. Each sex is mentioned 23 times in Qur'an. I guess that's a total of 46 coincidences then.... -_-

No, that's one coincidence.

dude, anything that starts with wiki is not to be trusted! internet rule 101.

Meanwhile, anything written down in a 1400 year old book is to be trusted?

Standman

///3power wrote: »

... Do some online searches of miracles in the Qur'an to find out more. ...

I did some online searches for "examples of confirmation bias" yesterday and had my fill thank you very much!

kylith

///3power wrote: »

Is this a trick question? I say yes, you say "i want (insert depraved, evil and immoral act here).

When you obey what the scriptures say, you inevitably become "purer". Your desires and intentions change.

So when you say that following the Quran makes you purer, does that include the hundred-and-odd verses about killing and maiming infidels? Does following them make you purer? How about the bits about marrying pre-pubescent girls?

Following scripture makes you 'pure' in the eyes of that scripture only; if you follow what god says then you are good in the eyes of god. The problem comes when what god says is morally reprehensible.

Dave!

kylith wrote: »

So when you say that following the Quran makes you purer, does that include the hundred-and-odd verses about killing and maiming infidels? Does following them make you purer? How about the bits about marrying pre-pubescent girls?

Following scripture makes you 'pure' in the eyes of that scripture only; if you follow what god says then you are good in the eyes of god. The problem comes when what god says is morally reprehensible.

Yeah but anything that god says by definition cannot be immoral, so y'see, you've got no problem.

Mark Hamill

///3power wrote: »

All creation serves and praises God. It's the only reason He created it! As for why He wants us to serve Him, i don't know. Like, i know we're here to serve, but as for the ultimate reason - i have my own personal theories but that's all they are.

Who said anything about metaphors? The Qur'an speaks directly. It doesn't shy away from sensitive subjects or talk cryptically. It's very easy to read and understand. It's straight forward and plain. The more you look into it though, the more meaning you can find. The One who has complete knowledge inspired it. So therefore a brilliant mind could read a verse ("ayat", meaning sign) and see the ordinary meaning that a 5 year old could interpret, and also see a deeper meaning for example by the ways the words are arranged or by the number of the words etc.

But what possible purpose could our servitude and praise serve god? He has no needs, so our servitude is useless, and presumably as a perfect being he has no insecurity, so our (massively ignorant) praise falls on deaf ears.

If the quran was forward and plain then it would easily translatable (it's not, I've heard in many places that it pretty much has to be read in its original language to get the true meaning from it) and what meaning it has would not change the more you read into, it would singular and self-evident. That muslim countries themselves range from the extremes of hardline "sentence a woman to death for marrying a non-muslim" fundamentalists to semi-liberal proves that the quran is a horrible mess of allegory and ambiguity.

///3power

Hoagy wrote: »

Not according to this clever little tool.

Lies, damned lies and statistics?

Nice tool, but i'm not talking about comparing words between the different scriptures. I mean everyone is well aware that the Bible has been altered/corrupted. That's (part of) why the last revelation came; to rectify the man made mistakes in the previous ones. Along with a promise by God to preserve the final revelation, a promise that has been true as we can see the Qur'an has never been changed. There's no more revelations to come. If you can't step back and see the state of the world today, and if you don't have that gut feeling that something is very wrong and that something big is about to happen, then i'm sorry for you..

The revelations are one set of proofs. The future prophesies that have come true are another. People choose not to believe before they even do any real research. Why sell yourself short? If you're going to make a big decision not to believe, at the very least do your homework. Do yourself the biggest favour you could ever do. This life is but a short fleeting thing. Look into the true religions of God, the ONE God religions. Why disregard all religion just because Catholicism has left your belief in God waning. Get a much more complete picture by learning about Judaism and Islam. Just because you have no affiliation with those religions, doesn't mean you can't learn about them.

The majority (i'm talking scores) of prophesies made by the last prophet, about what the world will witness before the "hour", have come true.

Israel announced last week they're going to be the first country to make cash illegal.

A one world rule is around the corner. Don't be naive, WWIII has already started. When things become violent, we will witness complete collapse of the ponzi scheme that are the fiat currencies of euros and dollars. Things are going to be as bad as they can be! The majority of people will cry out for an ("anti")saviour. That's why you need to exercise your spiritual muscles now, while you have the chance.

It's very real and it's happening right before our very eyes. Call me names all you want or say i'm a conspiracy theorist (even though all these plausible conspiracies are turning out to be true), i'm just trying to help. If i have to sacrifice my dignity and open myself up to ridicule on this site then so be it.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The Q'uran is probably the most unscientific book one could find. In science, you develop a theory only after finding evidence to prove that theory. You're suggesting that we should start with the theory and work backwards to find the evidence to prove it. And the Earth isn't round, it's an oblate spheroid...but leaving that to one side. So as well as violating a fundamental scientific principle, what else can we find that's unscientific.

Well, you mentioned that all life comes from water. A chap called Thales of Miletus first came to this conclusion around 500BC so it certainly wasn't a novel idea. In fact, let's back that up with the Q'uran, why not?

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?”

You claimed above that nothing contradicts modern science, well, you've obviously overlooked this. We know from cosmology that the heavens and the Earth were not one piece and parted but rather the Earth was formed violently from the excrement of a nebula. Very different account I'm sure you'll agree - one is filled with theology and faith while the other is filled with reality and evidence.

Let's take a look at 71:15, "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another" - He is stating this with no evidence, therefore unscientific, therefore dismiss-able.

Probably the most interesting attack against science in Islam comes from the shooting star argument, a concise summary of this argument can be found here.

You have no legs to stand on - the Q'uran is wholly unscientific and the retrospective nature of the endeavour is something to be suspicious of and not proud of.

1. I never said the Qur'an was a scientific journal. It's a guide book. It doesn't claim to be scientific, so therefore it doesn't need to have a scientific format or give the reader a theory, introduction, lab report, conclusion, etc.

2. It doesn't matter when the first theory of life originating from water was hypothesised, it only matters that it is found in the Qur'an. There was probably thousands of theories. Yet only one is in Qur'an.

3. We don't "know" where the earth came from. That's why it's called the big bang theory. Having said that God does tell us the universe is expanding, as has been proven only within the past decade. So, it would be logical to conclude it originated from a point source. How you can conclude that the idea of that interferes with the heavens is beyond me, as we don't know where the heavens are.

4. Dismissing something because there is no proof offered is foolish. If everyone had that mindset we'd still be in the dark ages.. As i said, the Qur'an is not a science book. If God doesn't want to give us evidence of seven heavens, that's entirely up to Him. There is so much other evidence. How much more do you want?

5. Satanic anti-Islamic sites are a dime a dozen... The fact that there is soooo much guidance and truth found in the teachings, is all the more reason to put so much effort into keeping people away from it, by any means possible... If you want to make money writing a book. Write an anti-Islam book and you're guaranteed publication. Also, research who has taken over all the major publishing companies. The same people who are controlling what your kids learn in school with books titled things like: "Lucy and her two mommies" or "Daddy's new roommate Tom" (not the actual titles, but similar). There is an agenda working behind the scenes to corrupt you. It's all part of their world domination/degradation plan. Look at which minister resigned lately and what he promoted; gay marriage, abortion and he was the main driving force behind the abolition of the Seanad, in an effort to make unjust laws get passed more easily. His loyalty was not to Ireland. These same people have their talons in most every government, in all aspects of society. They own Hollywood and are directly responsible for polluting your mind with filth. They own the music industry, and the charming lyrics we're forced to listen to. Singers with target audiences of 6 and 7 year old girls, sing about things such as "going all the way with boys" etc. Take a step back, look, listen. Read the lyrics of your childrens favourite singers, you'd be shocked and disgusted.

The same people own all major financial institutions. They are responsible for every man made and preplanned "depression" or recession there ever was.

The same people own all the major food companies. 90% of the food in your presses (kellogs, heinz, hellmans, etc) are all owned by one company.

They own the pharmacuetical companies and the ceo's of these companies are in turn the same people who work for government agencies such as the FDA which approves these killer drugs.

It's illegal for a doctor to prescribe natural medicines!

The word cure is not allowed in cancer "research", even though there has been at least a half dozen proven different treatments which can cure. 160 billion dollars profit a year is too much to lose for a cure for us worthless "little people".

GMO food and monsanto are owned and controlled by them. The food is toxic and causes tumours, yet they keep pushing and pushing to get it into every country. We don't need it so why are they pushing it, when it's so dangerous?

All the major media outlets that used to be owned by scores of individual companies, are now owned by 6 corporate giants. The ceo of each one is a zionist!

All the chairmen of the PRIVATELY OWNED federal reserve in America (the non government agency that prints, owns and controls the US dollar with no permission for any government body to investiage or audit them. It's called the FED but there's nothing federal about it). All the chairmen and women are zionists.

The company the provides all news agencies around the world with their headlines is called Reuters, a very much zionist affiliated company with it's biggest client none other than the Rothschilds family.

A little history lesson they wont teach you in school: When Britain and France were about to engage in the battle of Waterloo. Britain was at the time the worlds superpower. They were expected to destroy their opponent easily. The Rothschilds (the richest family in the world, trillions with a T, who pretty much own Israel and are zionists) they made a gamble/investment and bought thousands of British bonds. Expecting Britain to win, and for the bonds to increase in value. Britain was beaten in the battle within days. News back in those days travelled very slow. So Rothschilds sent word on horseback that Britain had in fact won (using Reuters company). Word reached Britain and the people were jubilant. The value of the bonds went up and Rothschild quickly sold all his bonds to unsuspecting common fools like me and you. The truth about the battle then reached Britain. The bonds plummeted in value. Britain went into a recession and everyone who bought bonds lost their money, meanwhile the Rothschilds sipped martinis on a ship made of human bones and suffering!

They have an agenda, a plan to make all us gentiles subservient to them. Their plan is outlined in a document called the "the protocols of the elders of zion", they claim it's a forgery, yet everything in it is or has come true in the world today. The world is the evidence to Mr.science boy above.

I've researched all this stuff for the past 3 or 4 years before i became religious.

Religion all ties back in to everything that's happening today. The zionists "cup of iniquity is (nearly) full".

They are ruling every aspect of society and you don't even know.

They are the ones behind this mass-immigration. They want to mix all the races, so that we lose our cultures. They are the ones pushing for all these unions so we are no longer soveirgn states and easily controlled.

They founded the tri-lateral commission, a group of the most powerful and wealthiest people from all over the world. With members like the very righteous Denis O'Brien, who owns most of Irelands radio stations, calling the shots on what the radios broadcast.

There's too much info to go over, but know that it's all connected and know that God has given these prophecies to His chosen prophets so that we may be guided. It's inevitable that some will be consumed by greed and they in turn will control the world. Awareness is half the battle.





I've said to much

Gordon wrote: »

No, I'm asking you personally, so is that a yes? Do you actually receive everything that you want?

I believe so, but i can't say for sure Gordon as i'm still alive. There is scripture that says if you sell the hereafter for this life, you'll get neither. If you don't, you'll get both. There's also scripture that says no one gets everything they want in this life, as doing so would negate the need for an afterlife. Plenty of scripture says in the afterlife you'll get anything and everything you want. There's already a mansion built for you there, if you only accept it. The greatest gift we'll get is actually seeing our Creator.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Alright, you got me here. Let's distrust WiKi because anybody can edit it to fix their agenda but let's trust Mohammad who heard voices in his head and had no reason to forward an agenda through editing his thoughts.

Logical consistency right there. :rolleyes:

What was his agenda? People love to say religion is just a means to control, it's a cult, and that might be so when you have an organisation like the church profiting. In Islam there is no hierarchy! No one profits. No one is in control. You either follow or you don't. I was a Muslim for months before anyone even knew. No one benefited except me.

Anyone can edit wiki, but the top mods are paid zionists as was leaked about 4 months ago. They have the power to lock pages, and forward their own agenda. Do you really believe that wikipedia always being the first google result is just another "coincidence"? Open your eyes. See the truth. I've read all kinds of rubbish on wikipedia when it comes to Islam or zionism or anything that conflicts with their plan. Look up any alternative medicines on wikipedia and all you'll get is "ohh no, don't try that medicine its a scam. Here, have these pharmacueticals".

King Mob wrote: »

So you're saying that there is nothing in the Quran that is scientifically inaccurate and all of those on the wiki are made up?

And can you provide an example of a scientific truth in the Quran that predates the actual scientific discovery?

And can you explain why you used a false example?

Sorry for using a false example, my explanation is that i wanted to show that people who spoke the truth or challenged traditional beliefs throughout history have always been persecuted.

I didn't look at the wiki site. I have absolute trust and belief that every single letter in the Qur'an is the absolute unmolested and beautiful truth, that confirms the Bible and the Torah before it.

As for examples, i've already listed a few. You know the Qur'an is only 70,000 words. You could read it easily if you wanted.

Mark Hamill

///3power wrote: »

Anyway, sorry i made a mistake. It takes 46 chromosomes to make a baby. 23 from each sex. Each sex is mentioned 23 times in Qur'an. I guess that's a total of 46 coincidences then.... -_-

That would 2 coincidences, at best. If it were true. This word counting website gives 483 for man and 16 for woman .

Tell me, when you picked up these so called miracles off some blog post somewhere, did you actually check any of them?

Mark Hamill

///3power wrote: »

Or the word day appearing 365 times, or the word days (plural) appearing 30 times.

There are 354 or 355 days in the islamic year. Why would the quran contain the same number of "days" as the christian calender? (not that it does). Also neither the islamic nor the christian years contain 12 months all with 30 days each.

Dave!

///3power wrote: »

[mad ravings]

Mother of god... Anti-Semitism, anti-GMO, pro-quack medicine, Illuminati... This post has it all!

Everything except homeopathy, and chemtrails. Go on, put me out of my misery – what do you make of those?

Gordon

///3power wrote: »

I believe so, but i can't say for sure Gordon as i'm still alive. There is scripture that says if you sell the hereafter for this life, you'll get neither. If you don't, you'll get both. There's also scripture that says no one gets everything they want in this life, as doing so would negate the need for an afterlife. Plenty of scripture says in the afterlife you'll get anything and everything you want. There's already a mansion built for you there, if you only accept it. The greatest gift we'll get is actually seeing our Creator.

Ah right ok, so you don't get everything that you want then. So when you said this:

///3power wrote: »

if you knew with absolute and undeniable proof that you were created by a personal God. He owned you, and your life and destiny were in His hands. He promised you all that you could ever want, so long as you served Him.

You were only referring to after you die, after you've served your god.

Hope springs.. eternal..

Nodin

///3power wrote: »

............

Nodin, there's literally too much proof to even recall and write. Do some online searches of miracles in the Qur'an to find out more. I'm not talking hocus pocus "if you add that number, and then divide it by 666 and then bla bla bla". I'm talking solid evidence.

Feck it i might aswel give a few examples, even though my coffee machine is now overheating.

For a start, every piece of scientific info found in the Qur'an that can be verified IS verified. Such as universe expansion. All life originating from water. The solar system and the paths of the planets. Fingerprints being unique to everyone. Microscopic stages of human development in the womb. and on and on and on.

80% of scientific knowledge in Qur'an has been confirmed. Scientific methods can't confirm or debunk the remaining 20% yet.

Then there's the mathematical miracles. Which honestly will blow your mind considering the prophet who used to go into trances and convulsions while revealing this revelation, was an illiterate orphan.

In English the biggest anagrams we have are like "level" and "racecar". In the Qur'an, there's full verses that are anagram. The poetic verses in the Qur'an are regarded by all as something that has never been surpassed in terms of eloquence.

Every single letter is accounted for. The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and unchanged since it was revealed 1400 years ago. When people uploaded the Qur'an into computers what they discovered was mind bobbling. The book is alive with all manners of signs and miracles. Such as the word man appearing 23 times and the word woman appearing 23 times, and the fact that it takes 23 chromosomes to create a human. Or the word day appearing 365 times, or the word days (plural) appearing 30 times. Or the word moon appearing 12 times.
Or if you count how many times the word sea appears, and divide it into how many times the word land appears, you get the exact same ratio of land is to sea on earth.

I could honestly go on and on because there's so many signs and proofs. If you want to achieve contentment in this life and develop a relationship with your Creator, it is so much easier when you have so many reassuring signs.

So you've none then. Ah well.

///3power

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But what possible purpose could our servitude and praise serve god? He has no needs, so our servitude is useless, and presumably as a perfect being he has no insecurity, so our (massively ignorant) praise falls on deaf ears.

If the quran was forward and plain then it would easily translatable (it's not, I've heard in many places that it pretty much has to be read in its original language to get the true meaning from it) and what meaning it has would not change the more you read into, it would singular and self-evident. That muslim countries themselves range from the extremes of hardline "sentence a woman to death for marrying a non-muslim" fundamentalists to semi-liberal proves that the quran is a horrible mess of allegory and ambiguity.

True, He has no needs. So i really don't know what purpose our praise has, but we're here now, when once we were nothing and we didn't create ourselves. So it's most logical to believe.

You can't listen to the radio and watch tv at the same time. Yet God tells us He hears and see's all! So there is no reason for anything God says in the Qur'an to have a singular meaning. I believe every word could potentially have infinite meanings because He is the infinite. There's so many more secrets yet to be discovered in the revelation, every day new discoveries are made.

When i say a deeper thinker could derive more meaning, that doesn't mean the initial straight forward meaning is changed. No way, the straight forward meaning is the most important. But those who ponder over the revelation, can find deeper more detailed meanings. It's hard to explain. But there's volumes of books (tafsir) on it.

What laws a society imposes on its people in the name of God, are not always synonymous with Gods commands. Muslim woman are prohibited from marrying non Muslims it's true, but the death penalty for it is nowhere to be found in the authentic teachings. Likewise Muslim men are prohibited from marrying non believing women, yet they do, and they live! Surprise surprise...

kylith wrote: »

So when you say that following the Quran makes you purer, does that include the hundred-and-odd verses about killing and maiming infidels? Does following them make you purer? How about the bits about marrying pre-pubescent girls?

Following scripture makes you 'pure' in the eyes of that scripture only; if you follow what god says then you are good in the eyes of god. The problem comes when what god says is morally reprehensible.

This my brothers and sisters is a typical example of the brainwashing and lies people are fed through mass media. Everything taken out of context and outright lies. Show me the verses you talk about if it is the truth. Quran(dot)com.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

That would 2 coincidences, at best. If it were true. This word counting website gives 483 for man and 16 for woman.

Tell me, when you picked up these so called miracles off some blog post somewhere, did you actually check any of them?

As was stated above you can't translate Arabic to English, you can only interpret. The singular words for man and woman appear 23 times each. Men, mankind, etc are not included.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

There are 354 or 355 days in the islamic year. Why would the quran contain the same number of "days" as the christian calender? not that it does. Also neither the islamic nor the christian years contain 12 months all with 30 days each.

Regardless of calenders, it takes 365 days for the earth to complete one full rotation of the sun. Which is another proof because if the book was manmade, they would have used there own number of days in a calender year. Yet the book didn't. Glory be to god.

Again regardless of days in a month or calenders, it takes the moon 30 days to complete it's cycle. The Qur'an is talking facts, not manmade calenders.

Dave! wrote: »

Mother of god... Anti-Semitism, anti-GMO, pro-quack medicine, Illuminati... This post has it all!

Everything except homeopathy, and chemtrails. Go on, put me out of my misery – what do you make of those?

LOL how can i be anti-semitic when i'm part semitic? Answer me that...

and saying my post was "ravings of a madman" is a complement to me, as i want to be like the prophets in every sense and the people in their lifetimes said the same about them So thanks

Take from it what you will. In time you will know the truth, whether you like it or not. Hopefully sooner rather than later, for your own sake.

Also i said nothing about illuminati. If you want to know a little history about secret societies see my post in the magic/paranormal section. Something tells me though that you're not interested in truth.

Lastly Jews and Christians are my extended family. Don't confuse zionism with Judaism. They've hijacked the Jewish name, and there are many righteous Jews speaking out against them, and getting killed for it....

ShooterSF

///3power wrote: »

Nice tool, but i'm not talking about comparing words between the different scriptures. I mean everyone is well aware that the Bible has been altered/corrupted. That's (part of) why the last revelation came; to rectify the man made mistakes in the previous ones. Along with a promise by God to preserve the final revelation, a promise that has been true as we can see the Qur'an has never been changed.

Brilliant. All knowing deity doesn't foresee man, as publisher, changing his first two books so he needs to write a tell all story to fix it. Genius.

Zamboni

Love this guy!

Nodin

Zamboni wrote: »

Love this guy!

It gets old after a while .

legspin

Zamboni wrote: »

Love this guy!

Just watched this week's 'Mock the Week' and one of the topics on 'scenes we'd like to see' was 'Unlikely Film Trailers'. Milton Jones went off a similar theme.

From the makers of 'Dead_One'...

Appearing in an A+A thread near you....

'Dead_Two'

This time it's proper Gobbledegook

Mark Hamill

///3power wrote: »

True, He has no needs.
<snipped for brevity>
Likewise Muslim men are prohibited from marrying non believing women, yet they do, and they live! Surprise surprise...

This is just nonsense. Going from believing in god in a general sense to praising and serving him is a non-sequitor. So god exists, but his act of creation took absolutely no effort and was entirely ambiguous - there is nothing to praise, from his point of view, so he shouldn't need us to praise and serve him. That he does is a contradiction.

If god understood humans he would have known not to put important information hidden in allegory and verse, obscured by different levels of meaning. Humans figured that out ourselves, its why we don't write scientific documents like that. That there are violent oppressive regimes that can hold up quranic verses as validation, using the same deeper meaning argument as you, just proves that the quran is not simple and clear.

///3power wrote: »

As was stated above you can't translate Arabic to English, you can only interpret. The singular words for man and woman appear 23 times each. Men, mankind, etc are not included.

More proof that the quran is not simple and clear. And according to the site I linked before, there are 46 exact matches for "man" and 16 for "woman". Did you not check that before trying to correct me? Did you check your own claim? Do you have a list of those supposed 23 verses that contain "man" and 23 that contain "woman"?

///3power wrote: »

Regardless of calenders, it takes 365 days for the earth to complete one full rotation of the sun. Which is another proof because if the book was manmade, they would have used there own number of days in a calender year. Yet the book didn't. Glory be to god.

Again regardless of days in a month or calenders, it takes the moon 30 days to complete it's cycle. The Qur'an is talking facts, not manmade calenders.

The Julian calender (46BC) uses 365 days for a year, so the quran is about 600 years late to that party.
Also a moons cycle takes 29.5 days.

PopePalpatine

Nodin wrote: »

It gets old after a while .

See: J C, Jerry Falwell etc.

Is it a coincidence that my phone's auto-correct tried to turn "Falwell" into "falsely"?

lazygal

I feel like this thread is making me forget the stuff I did know about Islam.