New minister for Education?

km79

Quinn has resigned

implausible

And now the question is - what next? He has already set the wheels of the new JC in motion, but it being summer time, could this mean a delay? Or someone more amenable to negotiation on external marking and/or external moderation of coursework?

km79

implausible wrote: »

And now the question is - what next? He has already set the wheels of the new JC in motion, but it being summer time, could this mean a delay? Or someone more amenable to negotiation on external marking and/or external moderation of coursework?

I can't see anything other than a "postponement " of 12 months minimum ..........

implausible

km79 wrote: »

I can't see anything other than a "postponement " of 12 months minimum ..........

Well, as a English teacher who is expected to roll out a course that we have had one day's inservice for and no information on assessment, 12 months will do me just fine!

RH149

Hallelujah!

MrJones1973

First of all its good news. Great news. But the battle remains over the Jc. A new minister wont have Quinn's baggage, We still need to hold firm to our Principle that we dont correct our own students work for a terminal exam. We either give way on this principle or we dont.

We (ASTI) are due to be balloted In September over JC Strike action. We must vote yes to strengthen the hand of our negotiation team.
Expect the Department to offer more external moderation but not full moderation. That would still not be acceptable.

The UK saystem sits on the hill waiting to attack its prey...do you fight or wave the white flag...again.

MrJones1973

implausible wrote: »

Well, as a English teacher who is expected to roll out a course that we have had one day's notice for and no information on assessment, 12 months will do me just fine!

So you think the JC is a great idea? 12 months delay on a horrific idea still makes it a horrific idea! Are you willing to stick to your Principles?

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

So you think the JC is a great idea? 12 months delay on a horrific idea still makes it a horrific idea! Are you willing to stick to your Principles?

I'm trying to find where I said it was a great idea...

The new system has its merits, an element of continuous assessment is needed at JC level as not all teenagers are able to achieve their full potential in one or two terminal exams at the end of three years. An oral element to assessment is a good idea too.

Where I have the problem is with the rollout. It has been rushed and ill-thought out. You cannot teach a course without concrete information on how it is going to be assessed. Internal assessment without external moderation is a joke and it will be abused up and down the country.

12 months might give us breathing space, time for proper inservice, detailed information on assessment and time to plan for a complete change to the way we do things.

MrJones1973

To be fair you never said it was a great idea but you seem to be accepting the broad thrust of the JC. I agree with you on Terminal exams however I have issues with the new JC-which we all should share

In the UK-they have proper Department heads ie they are paid and have an office and Authority. Most Teachers there only teach one subject. We have heads who have no authority or time to properly manage this within schools.

External moderation must be 100% otherwise the system will be warped. I might go over board in getting my students over the line. In the UK i Know a student who got an honour in GSCE English-he barely spoke it. Talk to your UK colleagues- Teachers are asked for an expected grade-which lo and be hold they almost always get!
I have no problem with English Orals-good idea but with ex-terns
No problem sending off an essay if its externally assessed. Picking a certain percentage wont do it-still allows loads of room for interference. Englih peope are way more rules focused than us and if their system has been riddled what hope Ireland?

Do you really feel adequately resourced /supported in what you currently do-btw?

brooke 2

Pinkycharm wrote: »

He's not very popular in his home town lets just say. His wife is a primary school teacher and is unemployed.

I don't think he can offer much to education considering the way he entered the government was through health- he was elected because he based his campaign on saving the local hospital, which he quickly forgot about once he got in.

Personally, I would think education to be doomed, if he was in charge. He has burned lots of bridges around here anyways.

I know him extremely well and would be in his circle. Empty promises.

Sherlock is blatantly self aggrandising. He has been constantly in the media for the past while, the go to politician for a quote on anything!

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

To be fair you never said it was a great idea but you seem to be accepting the broad thrust of the JC. I agree with you on Terminal exams however I have issues with the new JC-which we all should share

In the UK-they have proper Department heads ie they are paid and have an office and Authority. Most Teachers there only teach one subject. We have heads who have no authority or time to properly manage this within schools.

External moderation must be 100% otherwise the system will be warped. I might go over board in getting my students over the line. In the UK i Know a student who got an honour in GSCE English-he barely spoke it. Talk to your UK colleagues- Teachers are asked for an expected grade-which lo and be hold they almost always get!
I have no problem with English Orals-good idea but with ex-terns
No problem sending off an essay if its externally assessed. Picking a certain percentage wont do it-still allows loads of room for interference. Englih peope are way more rules focused than us and if their system has been riddled what hope Ireland?

Do you really feel adequately resourced /supported in what you currently do-btw?

100% external moderation of internal assessment IS external assessment. Moderation can be done. It is already being done at FETAC levels. An extern comes in, looks at the marks and moderates a decent percentage. It wouldn't be difficult or expensive to hire moderators who will spend a day or two in each school reassessing the work. The Dept. gets their internal assessment element and saves money, the teachers get the fear/reassurance of an extern coming in. I don't object to assessing my student's work, per se, as long as there is strong external moderation. I already do it for FETAC.

Of course I don't feel adequately resourced! I am the dept head and get no thanks/time for it, but in itself that is not the fault of the new JC.

Like I said, a 12 month breather could nail down the course, adequately prepare teachers and sort out the assessment issues.

Anyhow, getting back on topic. I hope that a new minister will be open to negotiation on these issues. I don't think we're ever going to win a "we won't mark our students' work" argument with any minister, as RQ has already sold the money-saving benefits of it.

MrJones1973

Quinn has sold the money saving benefits to whom exactly?! You have already stated you are not adequately resourced so now you are agreeing to loads of extra work? What is to stop you or anyone bringing the students work up to the mark. External assessors cant tell how much of the work they see is yours,the students ,parents or grinds teachers?

Good luck being Department head under this new arrangement as you will be given the task of seeing this though for no extra money. You will have to co-ordinate all your colleagues. That is the fault of the new JC.

We can of course stick to our Principles-we dont have to give in. Quinn unilaterally started the ball rolling not Teachers. We could agree to an oral fully examined by externs or allow the JC exam to be done over 2 years . Its amazing how we accept their agenda fully-they tell us-we need to bury the JC and we say "Where is the shovel" !?

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Quinn has sold the money saving benefits to whom exactly?! You have already stated you are not adequately resourced so now you are agreeing to loads of extra work? What is to stop you or anyone bringing the students work up to the mark. External assessors cant tell how much of the work they see is yours,the students ,parents or grinds teachers?

Good luck being Department head under this new arrangement as you will be given the task of seeing this though for no extra money. You will have to co-ordinate all your colleagues. That is the fault of the new JC.

We can of course stick to our Principles-we dont have to give in. Quinn unilaterally started the ball rolling not Teachers. We could agree to an oral fully examined by externs or allow the JC exam to be done over 2 years . Its amazing how we accept their agenda fully-they tell us-we need to bury the JC and we say "Where is the shovel" !?

Sure, aside from "reform", money-saving is top of the agenda with this new JC - fewer JC exams, correctors and supervisors and eventually, none. It's a no-brainer for the Govt.

When you say "our Principles", I presume you are referring to teachers not marking their own students' work. This is not a principle that everyone holds, most teachers already do it all the time.

On external assessors, unless you retain the system we have presently, there is no method that will 100% guarantee the integrity of student work and I believe the current system does need to be changed.

Externally examining the oral aspect won't work, because at present, the scope of the oral element is very very broad i.e. not like LC Irish for example, where there is a fairly set structure of a conversation and describing pictures.

MrJones1973

Well you can always narrow trhe scope of the Oral element. Look Im for a project of some sort in every JC exam but if you extend it beyond say 30% then I believe the value of student assessment will go down the toilet . Already I have witnessed manipulation on LC projects. But they should still be kept because sudents do work on their own a lot of the time and they need some experience of project work. But only some.
Sure some teachers do assessment for terminal exams in certain areas but the vast majority of teachers dont so it is a Principle . It has been ASTI policy for years-do we simply throw it out because the Government wants to save money??
Its worth noting that in Haddington Road-it was accepted that extra work of JC would be a separate matter ie we would get something for it but no figure has yet been produced. You accept new JC-you accept a blank contract for it.

As for FETEC- Im sure you assess your pupils properly but you cant claim that some teachers dont manipulate marks by writing chunks of work for students.
But anyway-I could spend all day . You want the extra unpaid work. Are willing to do it. Are willing to co-ordinate your colleagues for nothing. Fair dues!

Just dont come blaming me when within five years your job is shyte!

Peter Flynt

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Its worth noting that in Haddington Road-it was accepted that extra work of JC would be a separate matter ie we would get something for it but no figure has yet been produced.

I never read that in Haddington Road.

Can you reference the paragraph which states that?

MrJones1973

Cant reference it off the top of my head but if Im wrong - may I be struck dead . Pat King discussed it at length at CEC. Will try to get reference next few days. Pat king told us there is no agreement on table for payment for extra hours. Generally when Pat speaks he is very careful..too careful so I would take him at his word.

Peter Flynt

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Cant reference it off the top of my head but I may I be struck dead if Im wrong. Pat King discussed it at length at CEC. Will ttry to get reference next few days.

There is no reference to Junior Cert reform in the Haddington Road Agreement and certainly no reference to any remuneration for teachers for doing the work for free.

And it certainly wouldn't surprise me in the least if Pat King misled you and others into thinking there was

MrJones1973

Well lets see-I just e mailed him. As stated the man tends to play it carefully with any statement. He errs on the side of caution. God knows what the offer might be. We might be offered a 2% pay increase some point and bet you it will be tied to that. As soon as I hear back Peter-will post.

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Well you can always narrow trhe scope of the Oral element. Look Im for a project of some sort in every JC exam but if you extend it beyond say 30% then I believe the value of student assessment will go down the toilet . Already I have witnessed manipulation on LC projects. But they should still be kept because sudents do work on their own a lot of the time and they need some experience of project work. But only some.
Sure some teachers do assessment for terminal exams in certain areas but the vast majority of teachers dont so it is a Principle . It has been ASTI policy for years-do we simply throw it out because the Government wants to save money??
Its worth noting that in Haddington Road-it was accepted that extra work of JC would be a separate matter ie we would get something for it but no figure has yet been produced. You accept new JC-you accept a blank contract for it.

As for FETEC- Im sure you assess your pupils properly but you cant claim that some teachers dont manipulate marks by writing chunks of work for students.
But anyway-I could spend all day . You want the extra unpaid work. Are willing to do it. Are willing to co-ordinate your colleagues for nothing. Fair dues!

Just dont come blaming me when within five years your job is shyte!

I'm know that the workload is going to increase, don't take my disagreement with your "Principle" as stupidity, I just see the work as inevitable.

I used FETAC as an example of where I have seen external moderation working and teachers do not have the time to write chunks of work for students. I can see that a thorough system of external moderation could spot plagiarism, work that isn't the students' own and deviation from a national standard, while also provide a bulwark against parents' ire as the mark the teacher gives is only provisional. It could protect against schools who want to inflate marks as, again, the teacher's mark would only be provisional and a terminal exam should confirm the teacher's assessment

I think that the battle to not assess our own students' work is one that has already been lost, as it is a core part of the new JC and it will only be taken off the table if the new JC is thrown out (along with the Govt's plans to save money). Therefore, I think that fighting for rigorous external moderation of the 40% (in the case of English) and the retention of a terminal externally assessed exam is the way to go with a new minister.

acequion

Rigorous external moderation,would only hugely increase the pressure on the teacher as any of us who are marking at present know only too well.But those of us marking at present are doing so by choice and for payment.Big difference.

Some people may be great teachers,but not skilled markers. And again,only those who've done formalised marking realise how difficult it can be to reach agreement on how to award marks.It's a whole extra ball game and should not be foisted on teachers against their will,on top of all that has gone before.

For all sorts of reasons,marking our own students should remain our core objection to this new JC and I certainly hope everyone will forge ahead with the opposition come September. Otherwise,MrWhite1970 is right. The job would actually become unbearable.

implausible

acequion wrote: »

Rigorous external moderation,would only hugely increase the pressure on the teacher as any of us who are marking at present know only too well.But those of us marking at present are doing so by choice and for payment.Big difference.

Some people may be great teachers,but not skilled markers. And again,only those who've done formalised marking realise how difficult it can be to reach agreement on how to award marks.It's a whole extra ball game should not be foisted on teachers against their will,on top of all that has gone before.

For all sorts of reasons,marking our own students should remain our core objection to this new JC and I certainly hope everyone will forge ahead with the opposition come September. Otherwise,MrWhite1970 is right. The job would actually become unbearable.

I've marked for years and I know how rigorous it is, but we're not talking about the level of intensity of marking two papers consisting of a set variety of different questions. In English, we're talking about giving a grade to a certain number of pieces of work and an oral presentation. At present, the plan is to let us do that and have it stand with all the issues that come with it.

In my opinion, the best that we can hope for is to receive proper inservice on assessment BEFORE we are required to implement the new course and that our marking is double-checked by someone else.

If we refuse to do it and afaik, we can't refuse to implement the curriculum as it's in our contracts, the Govt either scraps the whole thing (egg on face - can't see it happening) or bows to us and has the whole thing assessed externally (saving NO money - can't see that happening either.)

Don't get me wrong - I don't want this extra work. However, I think it's inevitable and that what I've discussed is the best we can hope for.

acequion

implausible wrote: »

I've marked for years and I know how rigorous it is, but we're not talking about the level of intensity of marking two papers consisting of a set variety of different questions. In English, we're talking about giving a grade to a certain number of pieces of work and an oral presentation. At present, the plan is to let us do that and have it stand with all the issues that come with it.

In my opinion, the best that we can hope for is to receive proper inservice on assessment BEFORE we are required to implement the new course and that our marking is double-checked by someone else.

If we refuse to do it and afaik, we can't refuse to implement the curriculum as it's in our contracts, the Govt either scraps the whole thing (egg on face - can't see it happening) or bows to us and has the whole thing assessed externally (saving NO money - can't see that happening either.)

Don't get me wrong - I don't want this extra work. However, I think it's inevitable and that what I've discussed is the best we can hope for.

No,implausible,it is NOT inevitable. That's the rock we've perished on for years in this country,this feeling that we're doomed anyway,because it's all inevitable. That's how they've managed to shift billions out of the economy almost in the blink of an eye over the past few years,without practically a whisper of protest, because people think it's inevitable. That's why pay cuts,CP,HR have all been accepted and normalised because,again,this big word.Inevitable! And now you're saying the same about this farcical JCSA! Look I'm not having a go at you or even saying that you're wrong! But you need to see that it is not inevitable.The recent elections have shown this Govt how people feel about their austerity and cost cutting and now Quinn is gone,so we are in a better position now than at any other point since this new course was first mooted and this is something we'll really regret not digging our heels in over.

I teach both English and French,so I'm well aware of what they have in mind. But I only mark French in the summer.I just would not have the temperament to mark English,though I teach it well.Hence my earlier argument that good teachers are not necessarily good markers. This notion that a teacher should be a jack of all trades only suits the cost cutting agenda. Teachers have to say no,and mean it for once!

MrJones1973

To be fair-Implausible you make a good case. A good argument. Some would say realistic but in my view realism means you are about to abandon a principle. An ASTI Principle. It might not be your principle but it remains ASTI policy and lets fight for it. However given your views and the low turnout last vote-there is work to be done.

The Government can of course reverse policy. Medical cards ,Teachers in disadvantaged schools-Im sure there are other examples.

MrJones1973

They say Sherlock is the favourite. As a Junior Minister under Quinn he would be worst choice . Plus from what I have read of the guy on Education-he is another FG er masquerading as a socialist.

Icsics

Yup Seanie Sherlock seems to be in the running, he'll do whatever he's told & quote research instead of giving opinion

rainbowtrout

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Well you can always narrow trhe scope of the Oral element. Look Im for a project of some sort in every JC exam but if you extend it beyond say 30% then I believe the value of student assessment will go down the toilet . Already I have witnessed manipulation on LC projects. But they should still be kept because sudents do work on their own a lot of the time and they need some experience of project work. But only some.
Sure some teachers do assessment for terminal exams in certain areas but the vast majority of teachers dont so it is a Principle . It has been ASTI policy for years-do we simply throw it out because the Government wants to save money??
Its worth noting that in Haddington Road-it was accepted that extra work of JC would be a separate matter ie we would get something for it but no figure has yet been produced. You accept new JC-you accept a blank contract for it.

As for FETEC- Im sure you assess your pupils properly but you cant claim that some teachers dont manipulate marks by writing chunks of work for students.
But anyway-I could spend all day . You want the extra unpaid work. Are willing to do it. Are willing to co-ordinate your colleagues for nothing. Fair dues!

Just dont come blaming me when within five years your job is shyte!

I missed this yesterday.

I'm a Post Leaving Cert co-ordinator and I teach FETAC modules as part of my timetable. I feel quite insulted by this comment.

None of our students have work done by teachers. We just wouldn't do it. Even if we wanted to, we wouldn't have the time. Are you even aware of the level of work involved in FETAC? There are so many checks required and paperwork required that a teacher would not have the time.

The external monitor comes in and goes through every project, they miss nothing, if there is a mark amiss they ask me to get the teacher responsible and that teacher has to explain where the mark has gone and if there is an error they have to sit down and rectify it there and then to the satisfaction of the extern. My teachers don't manipulate marks by doing work for students or otherwise. If a student hasn't got the work done then they fail the module. To pass them would make a mockery of our course and for those using it to get local employment it would soon become known that our qualification is worthless. We also wouldn't do them any favours by giving them all distinctions and then see them fail college the following year because they weren't able for the course.

I could plot a graph simply from attendance vs. grades in our FETAC class this year. Those that attend everyday and do the work when they are in get the highest marks.

MrJones1973

My apologies if you were offended. I have heard from other FETEC teachers that the marks are not objective but Im sure yours are not. I would not imply otherwise.FETEC tends to be adults or young adults-am I correct? Do you not see that such a system would not easily translate to 12-15 year olds?

How many hours a week do you teach FETEC?
There seems to be a huge amount of work for FETEC-can you imagine putting this on a creaking system where management posts have been stripped away. Do you deal with discipline issues? Curious-not having a go. You say -you are a co-coordinator so at least you get paid but I presume you carry this load for several subjects? Is it an A post? There are no Posts on the table for this.
Because this is a big issue at Secondary level. We dont have properly funded Department heads . You probably dont either. What flaws do you see in the FETEc system and do you think it would work for a 12 year old?
What about subjects where there will be no extern-ie History? How would you see quality being maintained?

I have seen LC History Projects with considerable work done by Grinds Teachers sent off to the Department and achieve an A. Why was it not challenged- it was and got nowhere. I have no doubt that FETEC is quality but the extension would not keep that quality given the Secondary system is creaking under the weight of initiatives.
I quoted the information I have from the UK-about all children hitting their desired grade. Amazing!?

rainbowtrout

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

My apologies if you were offended. I have heard from other FETEC teachers that the marks are not objective but Im sure yours are not. I would not imply otherwise.FETEC tends to be adults or young adults-am I correct? Do you not see that such a system would not easily translate to 12-15 year olds?

How many hours a week do you teach FETEC?
There seems to be a huge amount of work for FETEC-can you imagine putting this on a creaking system where management posts have been stripped away. Do you deal with discipline issues? Curious-not having a go. You say -you are a co-coordinator so at least you get paid but I presume you carry this load for several subjects? Is it an A post? There are no Posts on the table for this.
Because this is a big issue at Secondary level. We dont have properly funded Department heads . You probably dont either. What flaws do you see in the FETEc system and do you think it would work for a 12 year old?
What about subjects where there will be no extern-ie History? How would you see quality being maintained?

I have seen LC History Projects with considerable work done by Grinds Teachers sent off to the Department and achieve an A. Why was it not challenged- it was and got nowhere. I have no doubt that FETEC is quality but the extension would not keep that quality given the Secondary system is creaking under the weight of initiatives.
I quoted the information I have from the UK-about all children hitting their desired grade. Amazing!?

FETAC courses can be at a number of levels. PLC is normally Level 5 or Level 6. We offer Level 5 in my school, which would be the most common award around the country. Some adult education centres, would offer levels lower than this as would some schools for a certain cohort of students, as would Youth Reach centres.

FETAC modules have a list of specific objectives, there is a marking scheme that has to be adhered to and projects/exams have to include certain components to meet the guidelines of these marking sheets.

Discipline issues generally don't exist as students are 17+ and choose to be there of their own accord. Attendance is more of an issue than discipline. I suspect other FETAC tutors would agree.

I know of other schools that offer FETAC at Level 2, 3, 4 for students that would not manage Junior/Leaving Cert and seem to be doing so successfully. There is still external monitoring at this level.

My timetable varies but typically one third to half my timetable is FETAC, the rest of my timetable is mainstream with mainly LC classes. I rarely get JC as it doesn't fit on my timetable.

I am the PLC co-ordinator. I have a Special Duties post in school so I get paid for it. FETAC co-ordinator is not about co-ordinating subjects, it's about co-ordianting assessment, attendance, administration.
Also tutors teaching Level 5 FETAC modules get paid to assess each portfolio. The fee (taxed of course) is typically between €10-18 per subject, per student.

I never once said that I agreed with the Junior Cert method of assessment. I don't agree with marking our own students, particularly without external assessment. What I am saying is that in FETAC there is a specified assessment procedure in place and that is backed up with external assessment. And it does work. No doubt there are teachers within the system that help students, that also exists at LC level as you have suggested with History.

If history projects are being flagged as teacher work to the Department and nothing is done about it then there is something seriously wrong at the Dept of Ed and that is something that needs to be investigated and fixed.

Rocket_Man

Sean Sherlock is the bookies favourite but unlikely to be appointed in my opinion.

Cabinet places will be at a premium and the party has a number of Cork based deputies looking for promotion: Sherlock, Lynch, McCarthy...

Today's Examiner mentions Jan O' Sullivan, who I'd see as a more realistic prospect.

Other possible candidates would be White, K. Lynch or Kelly.

Of course all of this is working under the assumption that Labour hold the portfolio.

It's unlikely, but not impossible, it could be part of a swap between the parties.

If this were the case then I know R. Bruton has a longstanding interest in the role.

dambarude

Rocket_Man wrote: »

It's unlikely, but not impossible, it could be part of a swap between the parties.

If this were the case then I know R. Bruton has a longstanding interest in the role.

There's a lot of talk of Labour getting the Jobs portfolio, which could mean that education moves to Fine Gael. If Eamon Gilmore goes to Europe, we could be lucky and get Phil Hogan as Education minister. Or even James Reilly perhaps. :pac: