New minister for Education?

MrJones1973

Dont take this personally Mr Quinn but you are 68. You were first appointed to cabinet in 1986. You have been a disaster at this job.

Anyway-who will get his job? What effect will this have on new Jc? If labour get the ministry (likely) then will his successor feel pressure to continue Jc policy or modify it?
I think its well to remember that Batt O'Keefe (FF) started this JC ball rolling. Its Not solely a quinn policy.

RealJohn

Hopefully we'll get a new minister who'll realise that the new JC is a disaster waiting to happen and abolish it. I have no problem with the junior cert being changed provided it's done in a sensible way on a sensible timeline. The current proposals are neither.
Old Batt might have had a better idea for all we know but sadly, you'd imagine any labour minister will feel obliged to do most if not all of what Quinn wants to do so I expect no progress if we get a new minister.

teacherhead

Batts started it. The ncca looked at it and made recommendations. Quinn decided to go ignore the ncca advice and go his own way.

he made it very clear that the decision was a political one.

TheDriver

So bets on new minister??? Sherlock would seem likely or McCarthy?
can't see Conway getting anywhere, sure she said she doesn't want to be a minister

linguist

My few cent on this one. Firstly, I believe our new minister will be Aodhán Ó Riordán. I suspect that's the name that many teachers would hope for. However, we must bear in mind that just because the Minister may be a teacher or former teacher, they are not necessarily on our side. Ó Riordán has been on the right side though particularly regarding DEIS schools and special needs cuts.

To the broader issues, Quinn is dead meat. Therefore, now is the time for the unions to twist the knife slowly and certainly not strengthen his hand at the last minute. In the upcoming 'talks', prevarication should be the name of the game. You do not do deals with a lame duck minister who won't be there to see them through. Even if he suddenly comes out offering us everything we want with sugar on top, my advice would be to stall matters until we know who the new incumbent is. Then, we should start off on a positive footing with the new minister.

Regarding what we can hope for in the months ahead, this is what I foresee:

- There will be concessions on external moderation but to what extent? Last year, 25% of LC higher Biology appeals were successful. So that's what happens within a tight, heavily supervised team of examiners! That's why the new JCSA cannot uphold standards as it is currently framed and that's the kind of statistic the unions need to wave in the Minister's face.
- It's clear that we're facing into a fairly easy education budget. There might even be concessions. I don't expect an overall reduction in the PTR at post-primary but I think the guidance issue is front and centre now. At the very least, I think DEIS schools will get an ex-quota allocation back and maybe even all state schools. Everyone in the guidance sector needs to push like mad!
- The new circular on SNAs and its dark threats to pretty much remove them in post-primary cannot stand and teachers need to show solidarity to our SNA colleagues and of course the pupils and their parents.

MrJones1973

Great post above. One Problem a new Minister faces is that getting rid of Jc exams-saves money. Quinn is on record as saying that is a key motivation.

We have 3 options
One hold firm-we wont assess our own pupils. New minister gives in but we have reformed curriculum.
Option 2 -We give in and accept a few extra A posts and external moderation.
Option 3-a stand off. ie we teach new curriculum. We dont assess. Minister (whoever) allows Existing Jc to disappear. School exams de facto become only form of assessment kids get. No meetings to co-ordinate or moderation meetings. I heard this could happen from a senior ASTI person. Not very likely I think.
The real threat is not a new Minister. Its Not Pat king. Its the spineless members.

linguist

Totally agree that it cannot be an either or as regards curriculum versus assessment. My nightmare scenario - and it's not too far fetched - is that we end up teaching the kids next to nothing as regards content because we want them to become autonomous learners and then spend the month of May reading through drivel about 'how they feel' about it!

However, when we start talking business hopefully with the new minister, we need to do so in good faith. We've been saying all along that we are not opposed to curricular reform and we should not be opposed to new modes of assessment per se. What we are opposed to in principle is examining our own students for certification.

I hate to say this, but if the Government wants to push through a load of crap by way of a new curriculum, it's not our fault and the problems will soon be clear to everyone. If, on the other hand, you refuse to play ball in giving your students an easy time at the end of third year and the Principal is trying to massage standards, that's where you could be in a tricky situation - particularly if you're not permanent. Thus, the biggest battle for teachers is to get our way on assessment as much as possible.

killbillvol2

linguist wrote: »

My few cent on this one. Firstly, I believe our new minister will be Aodhán Ó Riordán. I suspect that's the name that many teachers would hope for. However, we must bear in mind that just because the Minister may be a teacher or former teacher, they are not necessarily on our side. Ó Riordán has been on the right side though particularly regarding DEIS schools and special needs cuts.

To the broader issues, Quinn is dead meat. Therefore, now is the time for the unions to twist the knife slowly and certainly not strengthen his hand at the last minute. In the upcoming 'talks', prevarication should be the name of the game. You do not do deals with a lame duck minister who won't be there to see them through. Even if he suddenly comes out offering us everything we want with sugar on top, my advice would be to stall matters until we know who the new incumbent is. Then, we should start off on a positive footing with the new minister.

Regarding what we can hope for in the months ahead, this is what I foresee:

- There will be concessions on external moderation but to what extent? Last year, 25% of LC higher Biology appeals were successful. So that's what happens within a tight, heavily supervised team of examiners! That's why the new JCSA cannot uphold standards as it is currently framed and that's the kind of statistic the unions need to wave in the Minister's face.
- It's clear that we're facing into a fairly easy education budget. There might even be concessions. I don't expect an overall reduction in the PTR at post-primary but I think the guidance issue is front and centre now. At the very least, I think DEIS schools will get an ex-quota allocation back and maybe even all state schools. Everyone in the guidance sector needs to push like mad!
- The new circular on SNAs and its dark threats to pretty much remove them in post-primary cannot stand and teachers need to show solidarity to our SNA colleagues and of course the pupils and their parents.

Let's be clear here - nobody in this government has been "on the right side" regarding education. O Riordain and the other mouths in Labour only kicked up when there was a backlash against the cuts.

f3232

linguist wrote: »

My few cent on this one. Firstly, I believe our new minister will be Aodhán Ó Riordán. I suspect that's the name that many teachers would hope for. However, we must bear in mind that just because the Minister may be a teacher or former teacher, they are not necessarily on our side. Ó Riordán has been on the right side though particularly regarding DEIS schools and special needs cuts.

I saw this guy on the TV recently saying that what we need is an "ideological debate" in education. After 100 years of Catholic ideology in education this guy is calling for more "ideology". From my reading of his master plan, he would close smaller secondary schools and have large US style secular school model. I can only see job losses and a secular ideological crusade

Peter Flynt

The unions must go in and basically operate a policy of obstruction to Quinn.

Quinn knows he's losing his job and now suddenly he's inviting the unions in to discuss their concerns. He didn't give a toss about the concerns of anyone (NCCA, teachers, parents, pupils) when he felt his job was secure so he's now looking to compromise and appear to be statesmanlike as his job is on the line. His attitude at the conferences this year oozed arrogance and contempt.

Consequently the unions must make no deal with Quinn and wait for the new minister.

evolving_doors

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The unions must go in and basically operate a policy of obstruction to Quinn.

Quinn knows he's losing his job and now suddenly he's inviting the unions in to discuss their concerns. He didn't give a toss about the concerns of anyone (NCCA, teachers, parents, pupils) when he felt his job was secure so he's now looking to compromise and appear to be statesmanlike as his job is on the line. His attitude at the conferences this year oozed arrogance and contempt.

Consequently the unions must make no deal with Quinn and wait for the new minister.

I get the feeling that he'll be gone too, although given the fact that he doesn't give a toss then he'll probably just plough on as normal with this 'epic legacy', then if he's replaced he'll just toss the keys on his table and walk away. And we all know what the interviews will be like in years to come with Miariam O' Calaghan or whoever..

Miriam: So Ruairi, you had a brilliant vision and you never got to see it out.
Ruairi: Yes, and I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those pesky teachers....sneer..

The unions shouldn't touch any negotiations until a minister is sorted out. Anyone know if there is there any mutterings in Union circles on a hiatus in talks?

linguist

No, the unions are basically saying they'll talk. I suppose they have to but once in there they can make him squirm. They've the upper hand now.

Just on those who've taken issue with my observations on Ó Riordán, I've no axe to grind for him one way or another. We're going to get a new minister, (s)he will almost certainly be from Labour and having a (former) teacher appointed would be a reasonably good outcome after the last three incumbents. It would be a bit hard for him to have opposed some of the cuts had they not been announced for goodness sake and of course he had an eye on public opinion - he's a politician!

The fact is that he's someone who has run a DEIS primary school and is regarded as having a reasonably strong social conscience. People can wish all they want for somebody with good Fightback credentials but since that's not going to happen we're better off hoping for somebody who's done our job. I agree that Sean Sherlock mightn't be too bad either.

evolving_doors

linguist wrote: »

No, the unions are basically saying they'll talk. I suppose they have to but once in there they can make him squirm. They've the upper hand now.

Just on those who've taken issue with my observations on Ó Riordán, I've no axe to grind for him one way or another. We're going to get a new minister, (s)he will almost certainly be from Labour and having a (former) teacher appointed would be a reasonably good outcome after the last three incumbents. It would be a bit hard for him to have opposed some of the cuts had they not been announced for goodness sake and of course he had an eye on public opinion - he's a politician!

The fact is that he's someone who has run a DEIS primary school and is regarded as having a reasonably strong social conscience. People can wish all they want for somebody with good Fightback credentials but since that's not going to happen we're better off hoping for somebody who's done our job. I agree that Sean Sherlock mightn't be too bad either.

Then again, having listening to Sean Sherlock his brief has been to integrate science/research in 3rd level and industry, which is all well and good. But, will he look at the Secondary/Primary system and try to shoehorn the students to make them fit for industry... so it's either STEM or nothing.

spurious

Armelodie wrote: »

Then again, having listening to Sean Sherlock his brief has been to integrate science/research in 3rd level and industry, which is all well and good. But, will he look at the Secondary/Primary system and try to shoehorn the students to make them fit for industry... so it's either STEM or nothing.

I was wondering was he trying to break the record for the number of quangos mentioned in one interview.

evolving_doors

spurious wrote: »

I was wondering was he trying to break the record for the number of quangos mentioned in one interview.

Heard him on prime time debate talking about grade inflation...He relished in telling us how many Hundreds of millions of citizens money he is pumping into 'partnerships' with private industries. Its easy to sell tenners for a fiver.

Still though , I.d be willing to wait and see if his disdain for the teaching profession approaches any where near Ruairi's.

The link to the prime time debate on grade inflation is in the second paragraph here. The article itself is from Brian Lucy who has often spoken about misconceptions surrounding education which is always a good read.

MrJones1973

God allmighty Sherlock Sounds worse. Whatever happened to the labour party being social democratic? Though perhaps he would be ideal in that he would be quickly seen for what he is . The asti and TUI need to up their game. Your typical spinless teacher needs a prescription for a pair of balls or the women need thatchers blood cells injected. This time I don't think we will have a fifth column . Plus it's not a public sector issue as such.

Wicklowleaid

In simple answer to your question if I were to guess I would say Alan Kelly. Most likely the next deputy leader of labour and will warrant one of the high profile ministries I would see education being a front runner for him.

MrJones1973

Wicklowleaid wrote: »

In simple answer to your question if I were to guess I would say Alan Kelly. Most likely the next deputy leader of labour and will warrant one of the high profile ministries I would see education being a front runner for him.

Any idea what he is like? Does he have any views on Education?

MrJones1973

I think Alan Kelly will be it or Kathleen Lynch. We have only until July 8th before Quinn goes!

SM746

What are the chances of Alex White if he fails to win the leadership contest?

MrJones1973

A lot depends on how well Alex White does in contest. If he does poorly-then he might be left on Junior Ranks. Also depends on if Reilly gets moved and if there is an exchange of ministries. I think an FG minister of education might not be bad because he or she would not feel as much pressure to pick up Quinn's smelly baton than a labour minister.

Rocket_Man

Labour will have 3 new Ministers after the reshuffle. Most likely these will be Kelly, White and Lynch. So if they decide to hold the Education portfolio then we can expect to see one of these in the role. White would be my guess at this stage.

MrJones1973

Rocket_Man wrote: »

Labour will have 3 new Ministers after the reshuffle. Most likely these will be Kelly, White and Lynch. So if they decide to hold the Education portfolio then we can expect to see one of these in the role. White would be my guess at this stage.

I dont know how any of them would act to be honest. Alex strikes me as a bit of a bull ****ter -just like Quinn-ie throwing out initiatives weekly. Im not sure about the other two. I wonder if the penny has dropped with Labour that Quinn has alienated teachers-a key support group? I doubt it. They still think they have a chance with all the middle class. If I was them-I would hug my key support and hope for 10%.

evolving_doors

Lately I'm wondering if its such a dead cert that Quinn is going. I mean they are hardly going to sack him in his twilight hour, and where would they move him too also?

I think they will leave him where he is, education is getting like the Angola/HSE lately, a poisened chalice. From a party political perspective quinn has carried out the function. Dont mess up publicly, throw a few shapes, talk about reform , save some money, make teachers look bad, 'deal with' religion and fee paying schools.

If its optics they want then why not let Ruairi while away his last few months , any new incumbant and you would be taking a big risk for your party.

Rocket_Man

Armelodie wrote: »

Lately I'm wondering if its such a dead cert that Quinn is going. I mean they are hardly going to sack him in his twilight hour, and where would they move him too also?

I think they will leave him where he is, education is getting like the Angola/HSE lately, a poisened chalice. From a party political perspective quinn has carried out the function. Dont mess up publicly, throw a few shapes, talk about reform , save some money, make teachers look bad, 'deal with' religion and fee paying schools.

If its optics they want then why not let Ruairi while away his last few months , any new incumbant and you would be taking a big risk for your party.

No chance. Himself, Gilmore & Rabbitte will all be dropped. Joan will need to give the party a new look.

gaiscioch

Whatever happened Fergus O'Dowd, who was Fine Gael opposition spokesperson on education immediately before the last election? He's the Louth TD, brother of Niall O'Dowd, and fluent in Irish with very strong family connections to Ard na Caithne/Baile an Fheirtéaraigh.

I sensed Brian Hayes was trying to muscle in on his remit before the same election and something happened to keep him very quiet since.

Peter Flynt

There's a very simple reason why Quinn is definitely going - He's 68.

You can hardly be claiming to be a new leader brining in change and youth whilst keeping a 68 year old in Cabinet who served in Cabinet in 1983 - 31 years ago.

It's allegedly believed that Gilmore didn't want to appoint him in 2011. . and that Quinn allegedly threw a strop and went demanding a cabinet position when he found out.

Pinkycharm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Any idea what he is like? Does he have any views on Education?

He's not very popular in his home town lets just say. His wife is a primary school teacher and is unemployed.

I don't think he can offer much to education considering the way he entered the government was through health- he was elected because he based his campaign on saving the local hospital, which he quickly forgot about once he got in.

Personally, I would think education to be doomed, if he was in charge. He has burned lots of bridges around here anyways.

I know him extremely well and would be in his circle. Empty promises.

PinkCat86

will he really retire? I think he will stay in Labour!

MrJones1973

Quinn is gone. I would offer you any amount of money to prove that. Main argument he entered cabinet in 1986. He only got in this time because he was a close associate of Gilmores . To be honest it will matter how much more crap Teachers will swallow rather than who sits in the ministerial chair.ie either we stick to the principle of not correcting our own pupils or we dont. I think at the moment the odds are on teachers accepting a "compromise". If they do that we will be in Uk territory educationally within 5 years and without the funding.

MrJones1973

PinkCat86 wrote: »

will he really retire? I think he will stay in Labour!

He might contest his seat again alright. But he might not win it. Labour will be lucky to get 10% . They are fooling themselves by making shapes at middle class. They have made up their minds. Look at Labour 1992-floating voter never forgave them for sleeping with FF . Didnt matter when they switched to FG 1995.

km79

Quinn has resigned

implausible

And now the question is - what next? He has already set the wheels of the new JC in motion, but it being summer time, could this mean a delay? Or someone more amenable to negotiation on external marking and/or external moderation of coursework?

km79

implausible wrote: »

And now the question is - what next? He has already set the wheels of the new JC in motion, but it being summer time, could this mean a delay? Or someone more amenable to negotiation on external marking and/or external moderation of coursework?

I can't see anything other than a "postponement " of 12 months minimum ..........

implausible

km79 wrote: »

I can't see anything other than a "postponement " of 12 months minimum ..........

Well, as a English teacher who is expected to roll out a course that we have had one day's inservice for and no information on assessment, 12 months will do me just fine!

RH149

Hallelujah!

MrJones1973

First of all its good news. Great news. But the battle remains over the Jc. A new minister wont have Quinn's baggage, We still need to hold firm to our Principle that we dont correct our own students work for a terminal exam. We either give way on this principle or we dont.

We (ASTI) are due to be balloted In September over JC Strike action. We must vote yes to strengthen the hand of our negotiation team.
Expect the Department to offer more external moderation but not full moderation. That would still not be acceptable.

The UK saystem sits on the hill waiting to attack its prey...do you fight or wave the white flag...again.

MrJones1973

implausible wrote: »

Well, as a English teacher who is expected to roll out a course that we have had one day's notice for and no information on assessment, 12 months will do me just fine!

So you think the JC is a great idea? 12 months delay on a horrific idea still makes it a horrific idea! Are you willing to stick to your Principles?

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

So you think the JC is a great idea? 12 months delay on a horrific idea still makes it a horrific idea! Are you willing to stick to your Principles?

I'm trying to find where I said it was a great idea...

The new system has its merits, an element of continuous assessment is needed at JC level as not all teenagers are able to achieve their full potential in one or two terminal exams at the end of three years. An oral element to assessment is a good idea too.

Where I have the problem is with the rollout. It has been rushed and ill-thought out. You cannot teach a course without concrete information on how it is going to be assessed. Internal assessment without external moderation is a joke and it will be abused up and down the country.

12 months might give us breathing space, time for proper inservice, detailed information on assessment and time to plan for a complete change to the way we do things.

MrJones1973

To be fair you never said it was a great idea but you seem to be accepting the broad thrust of the JC. I agree with you on Terminal exams however I have issues with the new JC-which we all should share

In the UK-they have proper Department heads ie they are paid and have an office and Authority. Most Teachers there only teach one subject. We have heads who have no authority or time to properly manage this within schools.

External moderation must be 100% otherwise the system will be warped. I might go over board in getting my students over the line. In the UK i Know a student who got an honour in GSCE English-he barely spoke it. Talk to your UK colleagues- Teachers are asked for an expected grade-which lo and be hold they almost always get!
I have no problem with English Orals-good idea but with ex-terns
No problem sending off an essay if its externally assessed. Picking a certain percentage wont do it-still allows loads of room for interference. Englih peope are way more rules focused than us and if their system has been riddled what hope Ireland?

Do you really feel adequately resourced /supported in what you currently do-btw?

brooke 2

Pinkycharm wrote: »

He's not very popular in his home town lets just say. His wife is a primary school teacher and is unemployed.

I don't think he can offer much to education considering the way he entered the government was through health- he was elected because he based his campaign on saving the local hospital, which he quickly forgot about once he got in.

Personally, I would think education to be doomed, if he was in charge. He has burned lots of bridges around here anyways.

I know him extremely well and would be in his circle. Empty promises.

Sherlock is blatantly self aggrandising. He has been constantly in the media for the past while, the go to politician for a quote on anything!

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

To be fair you never said it was a great idea but you seem to be accepting the broad thrust of the JC. I agree with you on Terminal exams however I have issues with the new JC-which we all should share

In the UK-they have proper Department heads ie they are paid and have an office and Authority. Most Teachers there only teach one subject. We have heads who have no authority or time to properly manage this within schools.

External moderation must be 100% otherwise the system will be warped. I might go over board in getting my students over the line. In the UK i Know a student who got an honour in GSCE English-he barely spoke it. Talk to your UK colleagues- Teachers are asked for an expected grade-which lo and be hold they almost always get!
I have no problem with English Orals-good idea but with ex-terns
No problem sending off an essay if its externally assessed. Picking a certain percentage wont do it-still allows loads of room for interference. Englih peope are way more rules focused than us and if their system has been riddled what hope Ireland?

Do you really feel adequately resourced /supported in what you currently do-btw?

100% external moderation of internal assessment IS external assessment. Moderation can be done. It is already being done at FETAC levels. An extern comes in, looks at the marks and moderates a decent percentage. It wouldn't be difficult or expensive to hire moderators who will spend a day or two in each school reassessing the work. The Dept. gets their internal assessment element and saves money, the teachers get the fear/reassurance of an extern coming in. I don't object to assessing my student's work, per se, as long as there is strong external moderation. I already do it for FETAC.

Of course I don't feel adequately resourced! I am the dept head and get no thanks/time for it, but in itself that is not the fault of the new JC.

Like I said, a 12 month breather could nail down the course, adequately prepare teachers and sort out the assessment issues.

Anyhow, getting back on topic. I hope that a new minister will be open to negotiation on these issues. I don't think we're ever going to win a "we won't mark our students' work" argument with any minister, as RQ has already sold the money-saving benefits of it.

MrJones1973

Quinn has sold the money saving benefits to whom exactly?! You have already stated you are not adequately resourced so now you are agreeing to loads of extra work? What is to stop you or anyone bringing the students work up to the mark. External assessors cant tell how much of the work they see is yours,the students ,parents or grinds teachers?

Good luck being Department head under this new arrangement as you will be given the task of seeing this though for no extra money. You will have to co-ordinate all your colleagues. That is the fault of the new JC.

We can of course stick to our Principles-we dont have to give in. Quinn unilaterally started the ball rolling not Teachers. We could agree to an oral fully examined by externs or allow the JC exam to be done over 2 years . Its amazing how we accept their agenda fully-they tell us-we need to bury the JC and we say "Where is the shovel" !?

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Quinn has sold the money saving benefits to whom exactly?! You have already stated you are not adequately resourced so now you are agreeing to loads of extra work? What is to stop you or anyone bringing the students work up to the mark. External assessors cant tell how much of the work they see is yours,the students ,parents or grinds teachers?

Good luck being Department head under this new arrangement as you will be given the task of seeing this though for no extra money. You will have to co-ordinate all your colleagues. That is the fault of the new JC.

We can of course stick to our Principles-we dont have to give in. Quinn unilaterally started the ball rolling not Teachers. We could agree to an oral fully examined by externs or allow the JC exam to be done over 2 years . Its amazing how we accept their agenda fully-they tell us-we need to bury the JC and we say "Where is the shovel" !?

Sure, aside from "reform", money-saving is top of the agenda with this new JC - fewer JC exams, correctors and supervisors and eventually, none. It's a no-brainer for the Govt.

When you say "our Principles", I presume you are referring to teachers not marking their own students' work. This is not a principle that everyone holds, most teachers already do it all the time.

On external assessors, unless you retain the system we have presently, there is no method that will 100% guarantee the integrity of student work and I believe the current system does need to be changed.

Externally examining the oral aspect won't work, because at present, the scope of the oral element is very very broad i.e. not like LC Irish for example, where there is a fairly set structure of a conversation and describing pictures.

MrJones1973

Well you can always narrow trhe scope of the Oral element. Look Im for a project of some sort in every JC exam but if you extend it beyond say 30% then I believe the value of student assessment will go down the toilet . Already I have witnessed manipulation on LC projects. But they should still be kept because sudents do work on their own a lot of the time and they need some experience of project work. But only some.
Sure some teachers do assessment for terminal exams in certain areas but the vast majority of teachers dont so it is a Principle . It has been ASTI policy for years-do we simply throw it out because the Government wants to save money??
Its worth noting that in Haddington Road-it was accepted that extra work of JC would be a separate matter ie we would get something for it but no figure has yet been produced. You accept new JC-you accept a blank contract for it.

As for FETEC- Im sure you assess your pupils properly but you cant claim that some teachers dont manipulate marks by writing chunks of work for students.
But anyway-I could spend all day . You want the extra unpaid work. Are willing to do it. Are willing to co-ordinate your colleagues for nothing. Fair dues!

Just dont come blaming me when within five years your job is shyte!

Peter Flynt

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Its worth noting that in Haddington Road-it was accepted that extra work of JC would be a separate matter ie we would get something for it but no figure has yet been produced.

I never read that in Haddington Road.

Can you reference the paragraph which states that?

MrJones1973

Cant reference it off the top of my head but if Im wrong - may I be struck dead . Pat King discussed it at length at CEC. Will try to get reference next few days. Pat king told us there is no agreement on table for payment for extra hours. Generally when Pat speaks he is very careful..too careful so I would take him at his word.

Peter Flynt

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Cant reference it off the top of my head but I may I be struck dead if Im wrong. Pat King discussed it at length at CEC. Will ttry to get reference next few days.

There is no reference to Junior Cert reform in the Haddington Road Agreement and certainly no reference to any remuneration for teachers for doing the work for free.

And it certainly wouldn't surprise me in the least if Pat King misled you and others into thinking there was

MrJones1973

Well lets see-I just e mailed him. As stated the man tends to play it carefully with any statement. He errs on the side of caution. God knows what the offer might be. We might be offered a 2% pay increase some point and bet you it will be tied to that. As soon as I hear back Peter-will post.

implausible

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Well you can always narrow trhe scope of the Oral element. Look Im for a project of some sort in every JC exam but if you extend it beyond say 30% then I believe the value of student assessment will go down the toilet . Already I have witnessed manipulation on LC projects. But they should still be kept because sudents do work on their own a lot of the time and they need some experience of project work. But only some.
Sure some teachers do assessment for terminal exams in certain areas but the vast majority of teachers dont so it is a Principle . It has been ASTI policy for years-do we simply throw it out because the Government wants to save money??
Its worth noting that in Haddington Road-it was accepted that extra work of JC would be a separate matter ie we would get something for it but no figure has yet been produced. You accept new JC-you accept a blank contract for it.

As for FETEC- Im sure you assess your pupils properly but you cant claim that some teachers dont manipulate marks by writing chunks of work for students.
But anyway-I could spend all day . You want the extra unpaid work. Are willing to do it. Are willing to co-ordinate your colleagues for nothing. Fair dues!

Just dont come blaming me when within five years your job is shyte!

I'm know that the workload is going to increase, don't take my disagreement with your "Principle" as stupidity, I just see the work as inevitable.

I used FETAC as an example of where I have seen external moderation working and teachers do not have the time to write chunks of work for students. I can see that a thorough system of external moderation could spot plagiarism, work that isn't the students' own and deviation from a national standard, while also provide a bulwark against parents' ire as the mark the teacher gives is only provisional. It could protect against schools who want to inflate marks as, again, the teacher's mark would only be provisional and a terminal exam should confirm the teacher's assessment

I think that the battle to not assess our own students' work is one that has already been lost, as it is a core part of the new JC and it will only be taken off the table if the new JC is thrown out (along with the Govt's plans to save money). Therefore, I think that fighting for rigorous external moderation of the 40% (in the case of English) and the retention of a terminal externally assessed exam is the way to go with a new minister.

acequion

Rigorous external moderation,would only hugely increase the pressure on the teacher as any of us who are marking at present know only too well.But those of us marking at present are doing so by choice and for payment.Big difference.

Some people may be great teachers,but not skilled markers. And again,only those who've done formalised marking realise how difficult it can be to reach agreement on how to award marks.It's a whole extra ball game and should not be foisted on teachers against their will,on top of all that has gone before.

For all sorts of reasons,marking our own students should remain our core objection to this new JC and I certainly hope everyone will forge ahead with the opposition come September. Otherwise,MrWhite1970 is right. The job would actually become unbearable.