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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    A burial place being registered is not a registrar of burials which you mentioned last post. Totally different things. Everyone involved in running Tuam is long dead. The sisters knowledge is based on the same knowledge as ours. I have read the archaeological reports of the site and I respectfully disagree. There is a lot we don't know about the mode of burial but in so far as we know it was not disrespectful.
    Whether or not the coroner was involved or not should be determined by the the appointed medical office at Tuam who doesnt really seem to have been so bothered.


    .

    Are you deliberately missing the point?

    It has been illegal to just dig a hole in the ground and bury someone, never mind many someones, without the express permission of the local authority since 1887.
    It is also been illegal to place bodies in a subterranean chamber unless that chamber is under a church or chapel and had been a designated private burial vault prior to 1856.
    It is illegal to illicitly dispose of the remains of a person who died of an infectious disease. The coroner has to be notified and they then assume control.


    The evidence shows illegal disposal of human remains took place in Mother and Baby homes.

    The Sisters of the Bon Secours who ran Tuam apologised for being disrespectful.

    You are not only trying to parse - you are actually trying to deny what the Bon Secour Sisters have already admitted.

    Plus we know general location of the burial sites - what we do not know is who is buried there or exactly where because the Nuns did not keep - or allege there are no - records.
    Which for people who kept account of every farthing in their possession is a telling admission. They were meticulous in keeping track of what they considered valuable.



    By your logic we should ban the gov too and the HSE?

    The State certainly has questions to answer but as the current Govt was not in power when Mother and Baby Homes were in operation - and the HSE did not exist - do try and stay on topic and dial down the hyperbole.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Plus we know general location of the burial sites - what we do not know is who is buried there or exactly where because the Nuns did not keep - or allege there are no - records.
    Which for people who kept account of every farthing in their possession is a telling admission.They were meticulous in keeping track of what they considered valuable..
    Well this is just your personal conjecture. It seems to me that the burials probably were not done by the sisters at Tuam. The interviews with Julia Devaney to e indicate it was Julia Devaney or Bina Rabbitte that was involved in that.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Are you deliberately missing the point?

    It has been illegal to just dig a hole in the ground and bury someone, never mind many someones, without the express permission of the local authority since 1887.
    It is also been illegal to place bodies in a subterranean chamber unless that chamber is under a church or chapel and had been a designated private burial vault prior to 1856.
    It is illegal to illicitly dispose of the remains of a person who died of an infectious disease. The coroner has to be notified and they then assume control.

    .
    I am not saying no laws were broken. I am making the point that the lack of burials which you mentioned is very unlikely to be a law violation. The 1887 law on permission of burial places is a more compelling case.
    The concrete structure was found to be broken and no loner a chamber when excavated. So its not a vault. The question is was it a vault when burials too place? Maybe it was shattered by construction works in the 1970s.

    In regards coroners, I know coroners were involved in deaths in some homes but I am not sure about Tuam. The Children Act 1908 gives some exemptions from holding inquest for deaths in kids homes. Not sure if it applies here. To be frank, I imagine I would be familiar with the situation then the sisters.


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The State certainly has questions to answer but as the current Govt was not in power when Mother and Baby Homes were in operation - and the HSE did not exist - do try and stay on topic and dial down the hyperbole.
    I was responding to the intemperate remark by someone else that Catholicism should be banned or and that catholics considered responsible for this. In relation to Tuam, I dont think even the Bons sisters are legally responsible for damages as it was a Local authority home but I am no lawyer.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe



    I am not saying no laws were broken. I am making the point that the lack of burials which you mentioned is very unlikely to be a law violation. The 1887 law on permission of burial places is a more compelling case.
    The concrete structure was found to be broken and no loner a chamber when excavated. So its not a vault. The question is was it a vault when burials too place? Maybe it was shattered by construction works in the 1970s.

    In regards coroners, I know coroners were involved in deaths in some homes but I am not sure about Tuam. The Children Act 1908 gives some exemptions from holding inquest for deaths in kids homes. Not sure if it applies here. To be frank, I imagine I would be familiar with the situation then the sisters.



    I was responding to the intemperate remark by someone else that Catholicism should be banned or and that catholics considered responsible for this. In relation to Tuam, I dont think even the Bons sisters are legally responsible for damages as it was a Local authority home but I am no lawyer.

    Indeed. What you are saying is a mass of contradictions as you bend over backwards to make excuses for actions the Bon Secours Sisters have already admitted and apologised for. It's quite a sight to see.

    On the subterranean chamber: You have stated a few times you read the archaeological report (on what was a preliminary investigation in case anyone thinks it was a full excavation). The reports state the original Workhouse graveyard does not appear on O.S. maps but investigations - historical and archaeological - have lead archaeologists to conclude with a large degree of certainly where it was located. It was not in a subterranean chamber.
    It is a site containing adults in coffins, all properly and respectfully buried.

    Testimonies of witnesses speak of the remains of babies buried in swaddling cloths. Not in coffins. The speak of parts of the grounds collapsing and small skulls being present in the resulting sink holes.


    The fact is you are not sure about anything and are throwing out what ever pathetic excuse you can think of while making statements backed up by zero evidence.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robindch


    The Journal's Explainer has released an excellent look into issues arising from the report into the Mother and Baby Homes. Unlike much of the commentary surrounding the report, this explainer provides clear, concise information on what's in the report, how it was created and its shortcomings - many of which are frankly surprising.
    Renowned archivist Catriona Crowe and our reporter Órla Ryan join us to discuss the latest controversy over the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes - what problems are becoming apparent with the report, what did one of its authors say to anger survivors in their first public comments, and what can the government do next?

    https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/whats-next-for-the-mother-and-baby-home-commission/id1452246930?i=1000525111569


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    I would have to criticise Crowe. Adoption regret is immensely common, even in the best managed adoptions. The fact that mothers who lost their children suffer hurt isn't evidence of abuse or need for redress. People have found evidence of transcription error but there is no evidence it was deliberate or used to download the womens' experiences. Crowe referred to the system as incarnation but whether it was incarnation isn't clear at all. Regarding mortality, why is no attention paid to the responsibility of medical officers who were in charge of health care of these children?


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,037 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cabaal


    I would have to criticise Crowe. Adoption regret is immensely common, even in the best managed adoptions. The fact that mothers who lost their children suffer hurt isn't evidence of abuse or need for redress. People have found evidence of transcription error but there is no evidence it was deliberate or used to download the womens' experiences. Crowe referred to the system as incarnation but whether it was incarnation isn't clear at all. Regarding mortality, why is no attention paid to the responsibility of medical officers who were in charge of health care of these children?

    You must get awful headaches everyday,

    After all the mental gymnastics required for you to create all the whatabouttery and to ignore the crimes and wrong doings of the catholic church must take a lot of hard work.

    I'm not sure if you think you are some how coming across as clever, I can assure you you are not. Instead people just slowly shake their heads because they know it doesn't matter what you are showed or told it doesn't make a difference to you.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You must get awful headaches everyday,

    After all the mental gymnastics required for you to create all the whatabouttery and to ignore the crimes and wrong doings of the catholic church must take a lot of hard work.

    I'm not sure if you think you are some how coming across as clever, I can assure you you are not. Instead people just slowly shake their heads because they know it doesn't matter what you are showed or told it doesn't make a difference to you.

    Mod warning: Please play the ball and not the man. Any response to the feedback thread or via PM only. Thanks for your attention.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,013 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Adoption regret is immensely common, even in the best managed adoptions. The fact that mothers who lost their children suffer hurt isn't evidence of abuse or need for redress.

    Under the 1952 Adoption Act :

    - It was illegal to obtain signatures on adoption forms under false pretences.
    - It was illegal to forge signatures on adoption forms.
    - It was illegal to register births in the names of adoptive parents.
    - Foreign adoptions were illegal.
    - Adoptions were not to be final until six months after birth. In mother and baby homes many birth mothers were not informed of their right to reverse an adoption up to this point.

    Yet we had babies snatched away without consent, often within days of birth never to be seen again.

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Nuns Nuns Reverse Reverse!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe




    Off topic post.

    MOD

    This has only just come to the attention of the mod team and has been rightfully sanctioned as backseat moderation.

    Yellow Fern - you presume too much in this forum. It is not for you to decide what is or is not relevant. If you have an issue report it.
    After a delay of this length I would normally leave it with an in-thread warning but you have already used up all the latitude the mod team are willing to extend to you in these here parts.

    Do not respond in thread


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    David Quinn: Blame evidence not authors for mother and baby homes report ‘failure’
    Critics of Murphy Commission findings about mother and baby homes have failed to note they were based on sworn testimonies
    David Quinn
    Sunday June 20 2021, 12.01am BST, The Sunday Times

    *lengthy quotation mod snipped - I have left the link should anyone care to read what Mr Quinn has to say*
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-quinn-blame-evidence-not-authors-for-mother-and-baby-homes-report-failure-9wbsmfh3b

    MOD

    DO NOT LINK DUMP.
    This is a discussion forum not a venue for the likes of Mr D Quinn and other religious fundamentalists to get the opportunity to spread their 'opinion'.
    You have been advised time and time again to consider your posts in this forum. Perhaps a day off will afford you the opportunity to do so.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,013 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Quinn is just a peddler of nonsense and claptrap.

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Nuns Nuns Reverse Reverse!



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,037 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cabaal


    A church in Canada at the moment,
    Honestly I don't blame people for burning church's on reservation land, they are engry and they have a damn good reason to be angry.
    Not only did the church make it their job to wipe out their culture but then they dumped 100's of bodies of children.

    Is burning down four church's right? No, but I can damn sure understand why they've done it. I'm actually amazed its not happened here too.

    557093.jpg


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robindch


    Cabaal wrote: »
    A church in Canada at the moment,
    Not condoning defacement or destruction either, but if the facts are as they appear to be - and I've no reason not to believe that they're broadly accurate - the anger is understandable and as you say, somewhat mystifying that nothing similar has happened here given the greater crimes of the church and its various representatives here in Ireland.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    Cabaal wrote: »
    A church in Canada at the moment,
    Honestly I don't blame people for burning church's on reservation land, they are engry and they have a damn good reason to be angry.
    Not only did the church make it their job to wipe out their culture but then they dumped 100's of bodies of children.

    Is burning down four church's right? No, but I can damn sure understand why they've done it. I'm actually amazed its not happened here too.

    557093.jpg

    20 odd years ago in Sydney I worked with a young woman from Peru who was extremely proud of her heritage as a member of the Quechua people.
    She was also very very Catholic.

    So I asked her one day how she can be so devout given the role of the Roman Catholic Church in the Conquest of South America and the destruction of native cultures.

    She went to answer, then paused. I swear you could see the wall of cogitative dissonance crumble as she really thought about it.
    Her answer was "I had never thought about that before... and now I am"

    The same story was repeated across the Globe - Only via the Roman Catholic Church can you find salvation and eternal joy away from this Vale of Tears.
    The subtext, of course, was that the Roman Catholic Church played a enormous role in ensuring life was a Vale of Tears.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,923 ✭✭✭ eire4


    robindch wrote: »
    Not condoning defacement or destruction either, but if the facts are as they appear to be - and I've no reason not to believe that they're broadly accurate - the anger is understandable and as you say, somewhat mystifying that nothing similar has happened here given the greater crimes of the church and its various representatives here in Ireland.

    Agree with you on both counts. The behaviour of the church in so many ways is unconscionable. But the culture genocide as well as the deaths they played such a prominent role in is outright evil IMHO and I do not use that word lightly at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,013 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato



    New legislation to give adopted people access to their birth information will be published next month, the Cabinet has been told.

    Minister for Children Roderic O’Gorman received Cabinet approval on Tuesday to progress the Birth Information and Tracing Bill.

    The tracing legislation was promised by Mr O’Gorman following the report by the Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation earlier this year.

    It will, for the first time, give adopted people the right to their birth certificates with the name of their birth mother, as well as documentation from their early lives.

    Mr O’Gorman wrote to survivors of mother-and-baby institutions last week to inform them he would be publishing this legislation in mid-January. 


    The proposed legislation will allow adopted people to access records related to their own identity. The information covered includes birth certificates, birth, early life, care and medical information and other items.

    Last month, mother and baby home survivors called for a referendum to be held that gives a constitutional assurance that parents and children separated at birth can properly access birth information from the State.  

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Nuns Nuns Reverse Reverse!



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,013 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Legislation for exhumations at Tuam is finally to reach Cabinet.

    It's only taken eight years or so. So far.

    Make our National Maternity Hospital Public and Secular

    #MakeNMHOurs

    Nuns Nuns Reverse Reverse!



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