Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Bannasidhe

From the IT

In a statement last night, Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary said while the archdiocese would co-operate with any inquiry, it did not have any involvement in the running of the home and had no records in its archives.
“There exists a clear moral imperative on the Bon Secours Sisters in this case to act upon their responsibilities in the interest of the common good,” Dr Neary said

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/pressure-builds-for-tuam-babies-inquiry-1.1820942

As someone who spends an extraordinary amount of time in archives I find Dr Neary's certainty that the archdiocese has no records to be extremely interesting.

Not one letter?
No little postscript even mentioning it?
No correspondence from the Mother Superior to her district manager?

How can he be so sure?
Have they gone through every single document from the relevant time period?
If so - when exactly did they undertake this mammoth task?
Who did the search (I would also like to know their methodology as not even extremely well organised archives like Kew would ever issue such a definitive statement - they would say 'no records found')

If I were cynical (who am I kidding, I passed cynical decades ago) I would be thinking hmmmm..no records there now... doesn't mean there were no records there before...

He also seems to be throwing the bon sisters to the wolfpack.

Bannasidhe

NS77 wrote: »

No need for paypal - I'll leave one on your behalf ;-)

*speechless*

WOW.

Thank you!

drumswan

jank wrote: »

This is my own personal reflection and experience much like the women who have come out with their own personal stories. Every story should be heard no matter how bad or how good it is. Only then can we come close to the real truth.

Im delighted that you avoided being raped and beaten, congratulations. Wish my mother had been so lucky.

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

I have quite close personal dealings with Bessborough seeing that I was born there and given up for adoption myself. My own experience has been nothing but positive and I have meet nuns there on many occasion who helped me trace my birth mother.

Surprisingly (and this will come to a shock to some who won't like to hear this) but my birth mother whom is non-religious and very very left wing has had nothing but good to say about her own treatment there and the level of care and support she was given. This came to a surprise to me as well when I heard her write this as I thought like most Irish people that by default she must have been shouted at, called names, judged, slapped and so forth... Well not so at all. Hmm, interesting I thought. Then I thought why did I think my original perceived reality of life for unwed women. Well, the media is powerful tool... snippets here are there of abuse in this church, that parish, this school, some institution, after a while one gets the impression the whole system is one big cesspit of corruption, secrets and abuse. It may be a perception and perception can be reality for some however, it is not actual reality.

This is actually the primary reason why I generally call for objectivity when it comes to any discussion when talking about the RCC and its past. History is generally not the knight in shining armour, dancing with fair maidens at the cross roads or the terrible deeds of Irelands Gulags past. It is much more nuanced and complicated than that. I personally feel that these events can only be judged from afar. Those that lived in those times may have been too fearful to speak out, those generation after suffer from the guilt, so make up with it by over playing their hand. I think we need the next generation or two to actually write the history of this time.

I reject mostly the atmosphere of fear that media and the internet perpetuate and generate when talking about Irelands past. Of course terrible things happened and they need to be investigated thoroughly by an independent body. The 'twitterisation' of news and media does not help proper reflection. Nobody actually thinks now, they react.

However, there seems to be a huge brush being painted here that every single person that has had a dealing with one of this religious orders or institutions was somehow mentally and/or physically abused in some way. Clearly in my case it was not the case.

Abuse did happen. It should not have happened at all. It should be reported of course to authorities and the media who should be responsible in its reporting. As we all know good news doesn't sell. I don't bemoan that fact that there are no good news stories coming out of places like this, as clearly there are but thats just the way it is. The people of yesterday didn't want to believe any of the bad news. Today people don't want to hear any of the good news. Ce la vie.

Going back to bessborough, I also know of other people who came from there as we had 'parties' of some sort where children who were adopted came together to have a gathering (cake, fizzy drink, parents chat over tea, that type of stuff, ). It was very open, no secrets and all this dark negativity that people think goes hand in and such like a place like this. I always knew where I came from and the nuns or priests who I talked to never judged me differently.

The place is still open as well, providing support to women and families.
http://www.bessborough.ie/about-us/
It is now overseen by the HSE.

This is my own personal reflection and experience much like the women who have come out with their own personal stories. Every story should be heard no matter how bad or how good it is. Only then can we come close to the real truth.

May I ask what time period you were born there?

Neyite

He does seem extremely certain all right.

I couldnt tell you what is in my filing cabinet at work and thats only a couple of drawers. I'd love to have such high archiving and administrative skills like the diocese does.

Wonder if they do job-bridge training for that...

zl1whqvjs75cdy

E mailed every TD about how I feel. I have never gotten involved in national issues like this but I can't sit idly by with this one.

robindch

jank wrote: »

Today people don't want to hear any of the good news. Ce la vie.

Ce n'est pas la vie.

While a few are probably not, most people are, in good faith, trying to come to a balanced understanding of what happened. It does not do anybody, or any perspective on this tragedy, any good when you tar people with the same "you're all dreadful" brush that you say others are using.

bumper234

Petition hits 10,000

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Bannasidhe

bumper234 wrote: »

Petition hits 10,000

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Great minds - just checked there and it's 10,001 now.

jank

drumswan wrote: »

Im delighted that you avoided being raped and beaten, congratulations. Wish my mother had been so lucky.

This is uncalled for.

Going Strong

robindch wrote: »

Ce n'est pas la vie.

While a few are probably not, most people are, in good faith, trying to come to a balanced understanding of what happened. It does not do anybody, or any perspective on this tragedy, any good when you tar people with the same "you're all dreadful" brush that you say others are using.

Exactly. I know a fair few of my peers who were educated by the Christian Brothers. Some claim they saw nothing untoward going on at all, others say they saw and heard stuff but "It didn't really happen to me or my friends so we ignored it/made light of it" and some were the victims of physical or sexual abuse. All of them would have had the same teachers so which of them had the real experience of 'The Brothers'?

Bellatori

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Great minds - just checked there and it's 10,001 now.

More each second... including me...

Bannasidhe

The Light In The Window by Jane Goulding is an account of her time as a mid-wife in Bessborough in the 1950s.

This is Amazon's book description

'I promised that I would one day write a book and tell the world about the home for unmarried mothers. I have at last kept my promise.'

In Ireland, 1951, the young June Goulding took up a position as midwife in a home for unmarried mothers run by the Sacred Heart nuns. What she witnessed there was to haunt her for the next fifty years. It was a place of secrets, lies and cruelty. A place where women picked grass by hand and tarred roads whilst heavily pregnant. Where they were denied any contact with the outside world; denied basic medical treatment and abused for their 'sins'; where, after the birth, they were forced into hard labour in the convent for three years. But worst of all was that the young women were expected to raise their babies during these three years so that they could then be sold - given up for adoption in exchange for a donation to the nuns.

Shocked by the nuns' inhumane treatment of the frightened young women, June risked her job to bring some light into their dark lives. June's memoir tells the story of twelve women's experiences in this home and of the hardships they endured, but also the kindness she offered them, and the hope she was able to bring.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Light-Window-June-Goulding/dp/0091902053

This blog written last year about the Sacred Heart Mother and Chid homes makes harrowing reading
http://gamacavei.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/report-into-the-history-of-adoption-in-ireland-since-1922-by-adoption-rights-now/

Flippyfloppy

Have emailed TD's in my area. I tweeted a load of celebs last night, Irish ones and usual outspoken ones. The only one who responded was Panti! Thanks Panti! Rest of them must not want to be involved with this.

drumswan

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Light In The Window by Jane Goulding is an account of her time as a mid-wife in Bessborough in the 1950s.

This is Amazon's book description

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Light-Window-June-Goulding/dp/0091902053

This blog written last year about the Sacred Heart Mother and Chid homes makes harrowing reading
http://gamacavei.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/report-into-the-history-of-adoption-in-ireland-since-1922-by-adoption-rights-now/

That didnt happen to jank you know.

daveohdave

jank wrote: »

This is uncalled for.

It is, but you can understand why they would be emotional, and now is not the time to be playing down what _did_ happen in Bessborough, and of course Tuam.

To be honest, and I say this as someone that's extremely open-minded, the attempts by others in this thread to make light of these affairs frankly disgusts me -- I literally think those people are disgusting creatures.

Bannasidhe

drumswan wrote: »

That didnt happen to jank you know.

No. it didn't.

Which is why I am interested in knowing when he was born. Sadly, he doesn't seem to want to tell me.

drumswan

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. it didn't.

Which is why I am interested in knowing when he was born. Sadly, he doesn't seem to want to tell me.

Maybe he has decided to adopt some belated tact.

This is the equivalent of one of the better treated classes of prisoner in Dacau popping up in a discussion to share his more positive experiences of the place. Disgusting in other words.

robindch

Folks, this is an emotive topic and it would be best for all, as well as best for any common or subsequent understandings that might emerge, for everybody on all sides to debate as calmly as possible.

This is not to invalidate or deny any strongly-held feelings or strongly-felt hurt, but simply a request for the debate to be as restrained as possible while respecting the reality and the bounds of what has happened to everybody, and the information that has come to light and will continue to come to light.

Thanking youze.

This was a very interesting and in my own opinion very fair request. Chance we might make the same request?

http://gamacavei.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/report-into-the-history-of-adoption-in-ireland-since-1922-by-adoption-rights-now/

The stated demands of Adoption Rights Now are:
...

9. A good faith attempt by the church and nuns along with the Government to hand over every scrap of paper relating to historical adoption, the Magdalene Laundries, and the Mother & Baby homes in Ireland to a neutral third party until the future of such records can be agreed and legislated upon.

SpaceTime

The problem is that all of these organisations had two faces.

One face was the lovely, upright, highly educated nun or priest who was an excellent and dedicated educator. They would be encountered by upstanding middle class types.
The schools came in three layers too : working class (CBS etc), middle class (various posher versions) and ruling class (huge fees, lots of influential parents)

So, your average influential politician, lawyer, doctor etc only had great experiences of them.

I would also guess that middle class accidental pregnancies were hushed up without any trips to the laundries. It wasn't unusual to just pass the kid to an aunt etc etc.

So different classes of Irish society saw very different sides of the nuns, Christan brothers and priests.

The higher your income and level of influence the more pleasant they became or the less interaction you needed with them.

The other face was a lot less careing and brutal towards anyone not toeing the line or conforming.

We still have a totally two tier health and primary and secondary education system that stems from that mentality.

The religious orders also slotted themselves in as gatekeepers to education, welfare services and health services. That gave them immence power in that era and even today it continues.

I think we honestly need to just shake off that whole system entirely. It's really a remnant or the British class system merged with a very conservative and puritanical form of Catholicism.

All I'm trying to say is that one person's experiences of abuse and horror at their hands are not negated by someone else's pleasant encounters with them.

We're all from different backgrounds and our experiences of these institutions vary enormously depending on our circumstances and the personalities we encountered.

Both points of view are valid but we need to see the whole picture to understand what really happened.

Organisational culture can be judged by how it treated the most vulnerable in its care.

Going Strong

An ex of mine was the result of one of those middle class adoptions. No paperwork exists of her adoption. It was all done in private with the connivance of the sisters at the hospital. All she knows is the barest details that her adoptive mother knew "A lady from a good family who made a mistake." A mistake, that's how she was described. She always reckoned that the nuns who taught her knew something about her circumstance and who her birth mother was but they never gave anything away. She said she felt she was being judged against siblings that she didn't know anything about and found wanting.

jank

robindch wrote: »

Ce n'est pas la vie.

While a few are probably not, most people are, in good faith, trying to come to a balanced understanding of what happened. It does not do anybody, or any perspective on this tragedy, any good when you tar people with the same "you're all dreadful" brush that you say others are using.

I don't think this is my intention or my motive and I apologies if this what is picked up.

I am drawing a direct correlation between the actions of the past and the reaction of today. The people of yesterday were silenced and today we are trying to make up for lost time, here is where then objectify is lost and dangers of hysteria begin. As I mentioned I think the generation after us will be best judged to 'judge' objectively this period of Irish history.

I am not talking about this incident per say but any story relating to the RCC and its less than glamorous past.

It is worth a listen to Diarmaid Ferriter on Newstalk as no doubt many have already done so. It is a more rational discussion on the subject than what you will find on the opinion pages of Irish new pages.

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/listen_back/13240/10374/05th_June_2014_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_2

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. it didn't.

Which is why I am interested in knowing when he was born. Sadly, he doesn't seem to want to tell me.

PM sent.

Bannasidhe

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem is that all of these organisations had two faces.

One face was the lovely, upright, highly educated nun or priest who was an excellent and dedicated educator. They would be encountered by upstanding middle class types.
The schools came in three layers too : working class (CBS etc), middle class (various posher versions) and ruling class (huge fees, lots of influential parents)

So, your average influential politician, lawyer, doctor etc only had great experiences of them.

I would also guess that middle class accidental pregnancies were hushed up without any trips to the laundries. It wasn't unusual to just pass the kid to an aunt etc etc.

So different classes of Irish society saw very different sides of the nuns, Christan brothers and priests.

The higher your income and level of influence the more pleasant they became or the less interaction you needed with them.

The other face was a lot less careing and brutal towards anyone not toeing the line or conforming.

We still have a totally two tier health and primary and secondary education system that stems from that mentality.

The religious orders also slotted themselves in as gatekeepers to education, welfare services and health services. That gave them immence power in that era and even today it continues.

I think we honestly need to just shake off that whole system entirely. It's really a remnant or the British class system merged with a very conservative and puritanical form of Catholicism.

All I'm trying to say is that one person's experiences of abuse and horror at their hands are not negated by someone else's pleasant encounters with them.

We're all from different backgrounds and our experiences of these institutions vary enormously depending on our circumstances and the personalities we encountered.

Both points of view are valid but we need to see the whole picture to understand what really happened.

Organisational culture can be judged by how it treated the most vulnerable in its care.

Yes.

We need a balanced approach but it will take time.

What we are seeing now is the result of the dam which prevented those who had negative experiences from speaking being cracked and then broken in the mid-90s to late 90s and with each new 'revelation' hitting the public domain it reopens old wounds.

And the sad fact is due to the delays in redress and the State dragging it's heels as to what institutions qualify the whole sorry episode is being needlessly dragged out and the victims victimised all over again.

Those of us who already had a somewhat jaundiced view of the RCC are angry but not really surprised. But those who believed in the RCC (even if they didn't practice what it preached) must feel like they are the ball in a pinball machine being propelled from scandal to scandal never knowing when it will end.

Here we have yet another 'problem' successive Irish governments kicked down the road to be dealt with later. I'd nearly feel sorry for the current government as it must look to them like every single deeply buried can of worms had decided to burst open on their watch.

Nearly but not - Shatter could have dealt with the issues with the Guards, Fitzgerald could have dealt with this a year ago, Reilly could...actually no... He couldn't.. the point is they are flaying away trying to kick the can down the road again but have failed to understand that the Irish people have not only lost faith in the RCC as a corner stone of Irish society- we have also lost faith in the politican establishment and are fed up of paying for a plethora of fecking cans to clatter away bouncing off potholes.

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

PM sent.

Thanks but not received.

Sent you a PM there - lets see if that works.

drumswan

Thread below has more insights to share about Bessborough

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057224245

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Thanks but not received.

Sent you a PM there - lets see if that works.

Have it now.

iguana

A member of the Avaaz team contacted me earlier and said that due to how well the petition is doing, they are mailing it to a sample of Irish members.

paudgenator

iguana wrote: »

Nearing 10k on the petition now. I'm going to send a link about it to Fitzgerald's office but not submit it yet because it's still steadily gaining numbers and there is no reason to close it as long as people are still signing it. I'm also going to email all my TDs in the Limerick city region about it. Can people in other regions who signed it please forward it to their TDs too.

If you want to, you could add that our original target of 2000 was exceeded in under 10 hours and the next target of 10k is likely to be exceeded 48 hours after the petition went live.

Thank you! I have emailed my 4 TD's.