100 out of 180 babies dead in one home in the 1950s

The_Minister · 05-06-2014 4:03pm #1

Many people seem to believe that the revelations about what happened in Tuam are new.
They are not.

In 1989 Dr James Deeny, former Chief Medical Officer of the Department of Health published his memoirs, in which he laid out how he had shut down Bessborough Mother and Baby Home in Cork due to it's shocking death rate.

The nuns tried to cover it up, but when he unwrapped the children he found that they were covered in infections.

The Order and the local Bishop complained about the closure to the Papal Nuncio who went to the Taoiseach.
The Papal Nuncio was shown the report on the home, and agreed that they were right to shut down the Home.

The Home was later reopened and never reached anywhere near the same death rate.

What this means is this:
1. The Government knew:
_a. that this kind of behaviour was going on,
_b. that the Orders were hiding evidence of neglect from them,
_c. the Church could be pursuaded to support them if action was taken on these facilities.

2. The Church knew:
_a. that this kind of behaviour was going on,
_b. that the Orders were hiding evidence of neglect from them.

Neither the Church nor the State can claim they didn't know about these abuses; they were brought to the attention of both the Department of Health and the Papal Nuncio.
I'd say a Freedom of Information from every paper is probably working it's way through the civil service right now.

The_Minister · 05-06-2014 4:11pm

The quotes:

"Going through returns for infant deaths in Cork, I noticed there was something unusual and traced the matter to a home for unmarried mothers at Bessborough outside the city. "I found that in the previous year some 180 babies had been born there and that considerably more than 100 had died.

"Shortly afterwards, when in Cork, I went to Bessborough.

"It was a beautiful institution, built onto a lovely old house just before the war, and seemed to be well-run and spotlessly clean. I marched up and down and around about and could not make out what was wrong. At last I took a notion and stripped all the babies and, unusually for a chief medical adviser, examined them.

"Every baby had some purulent infection of the skin and all had green diarrhoea, carefully covered up. There was obviously a staphylococcus infection about.

"Without any legal authority I closed the place down and sacked the matron, a nun, and also got rid of the medical officer. The deaths had been going on for years. They had done nothing.

"A couple of days later I had a visit in Dublin from the nuns' man of affairs and he was followed by the Dean of Cork, Monsignor Sexton, and finally the Bishop of Cork complained to the Papal Nuncio, who went to see De Valera.

"The Nuncio, Archbishop Robinson, saw my report and said we were quite right in our action.

"For once the Bishop, Dr Lucey, a formidable fighting man, was silent."

Bessborough was later disinfected and Dr Deeny wrote: "During the succeeding years, while many hundreds of babies were born each year, the number of deaths never exceeded single figures."

the culture of deference · 05-06-2014 4:22pm

as i posted already
TUAM childrens home, time to remove the Catholic church from existence
Today it was announced that there maybe at least 3 or 4 other similar mass children's graves.

Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary was another: in the first year after it opened in 1930, 60 babies died out of a total of 120. Those who survived, meanwhile, were often sold abroad to childless couples.

Mary Lou McDonald SF said that similar graves could exist at “dozens” of mother and baby homes across the country. “As shocking as Tuam has been – and it is very, very harrowing – it’s not an isolated incident at all.

Gerry Adams noted that the “vast majority of people didn’t know” what went on these homes, adding that “the church hierarchy wasn’t about liberation of souls – it was about control, about power”.

Its disgraceful to think that aside from the fact

"The Republic of Ireland has already published four major investigations into child abuse and its cover-up in Catholic parishes"

They are still controlling our primary schools, they are allowed to hold society back. I have a post on their earlier intervention in the medical sector, and how it affected our development as a nation.

Then we see Bullsh1t like this

Archbishop of Tuam has told Bon Secours nuns that they have a moral obligation to engage WTF

Here is what the church previously said in the abortion arguments

Ireland's Catholic Archbishops have warned that legislating for abortion would pave the way for "the direct and intentional killing of unborn children".

" the lives of untold numbers of unborn children now depend on the choices that will be made by public representatives."

“It would pave the way for the direct and intentional killing of unborn children. This can never be morally justified in any circumstances.”They said to legislate on the basis of such a flawed judgement would be both tragic and unnecessary.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1218/arc...-abortion.html

So these lying murderers

Records indicate that the former Tuam workhouse's septic tank was converted specifically to serve as the body disposal site for the orphanage.

bones were first found in 1975 when cement covering the tank was pulled away.

Stories appearing all over the world now

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysi...te-271013.html

The Taoiseach must launch a full-scale national inquiry, writes Susan Lohan with regard to the disappearance, death, and dumping of 800 infants and children ... and for every other mass grave on or near the grounds of every other former mother-and-baby home throughout Ireland.

the Taoiseach should, without delay, declare the Government’s intentions on the scope, speed, and plan of analysis for a full-scale national inquiry

At worst, we may be viewing systemic instances of infanticide and/or neglect not just at one such home but repeated throughout others,

The main concern of the Catholic Church’s hierarchy was at all costs to prevent the emigration of these women and girls to England where their children might be adopted into protestant homes

The majority of the inmates of these wretched homes recall a harsh, cruel, punitive, dehumanising regime where they were stripped of their clothes, names, identities, self-esteem and self-determination.

the nuns tendered for the business of running these homes and received very generous government funding, equivalent to the average industrial wage, for each mother and child in their so-called care.

In addition, they profited handsomely from the forced adoptions they transacted, which saw 97% of all non-marital children taken for adoption in 1967.

Catherine Corless also found evidence of older children in the Tuam home dying from entirely preventable infections.

and suspicions arise in relation to at least three other large mother-and-baby homes, where mortality rates topped 56%, when the national average for marital children only reached 15%.

Once again, the world watches on with incredulity to hear that several Irish government ministers, have known of these mass graves, have known of the brutal circumstances of the deaths of those dumped in pits rather than interred in proper graves for some time, and yet once again the regime can find no words of horror, remorse, compassion, or explanation, and worse, seem intent on minimising any investigation to the status of an “interdepartmental inquiry”, ie a superficial slew of imprecise reports.

The news that the gardaí, without any exhumation of the bones, without any forensic analysis, have baldly declared that they do not intend to carry out any investigation

token56 · 05-06-2014 4:23pm

It really is just more of the same unfortunately with regards the Catholic church, our government and their combined disgraceful past. Both knew but nothing was done.

People are going to have to scream, shout, and beg before a full inquiry into what happened is carried out. When the full details of everything comes out there will be apologies all around, which will also have to be dragged out by all involved. No one will truly held accountable, we will told it is a reflection on the past, we must learn from it, heal and move on together.

But the obvious wont be acknowledged by those that need to, that together the church and our own government were involved in a systemic failure which led to countless atrocities. The government has failed us countless times, who has been held accountable? The churches actions past and present have demonstrated they care only about protecting their own heads, not their followers. All their moral values they supposed stand for were completely ignored on a systemic level in each atrocity committed. A complete disgrace all round.

rotun · 05-06-2014 4:24pm

Did these orders have any medical training?

The_Minister · 05-06-2014 4:27pm

rotun wrote: »

Did these orders have any medical training?

They appear to have had in house medical officers, but I am unaware of what standard of medical knowledge that would ahve required.

Further, quite a few nuns would have trained as nurses also.

rotun · 05-06-2014 4:29pm

token56 wrote: »

It really is just more of the same unfortunately with regards the Catholic church

Protestant home in Southside Dublin with similar infant mortality statistics.

This is a shameful shameful country.
Any old cotger who goes around with a superiority complex wants to have a long look at themselves.

kneemos · 05-06-2014 4:41pm

The mass grave was in the news weeks ago yet nobody pays attention until it gets foreign publicity?
The Government knew about this grave since the seventies,nobody says a word?

_Brian · 05-06-2014 4:42pm

The_Minister wrote: »

Many people seem to believe that the revelations about what happened in Tuam are new.
They are not.

In 1989 Dr James Deeny, former Chief Medical Officer of the Department of Health published his memoirs, in which he laid out how he had shut down Bessborough Mother and Baby Home in Cork due to it's shocking death rate.

The nuns tried to cover it up, but when he unwrapped the children he found that they were covered in infections.

The Order and the local Bishop complained about the closure to the Papal Nuncio who went to the Taoiseach.
The Papal Nuncio was shown the report on the home, and agreed that they were right to shut down the Home.

The Home was later reopened and never reached anywhere near the same death rate.

What this means is this:
1. The Government knew:
_a. that this kind of behaviour was going on,
_b. that the Orders were hiding evidence of neglect from them,
_c. the Church could be pursuaded to support them if action was taken on these facilities.

2. The Church knew:
_a. that this kind of behaviour was going on,
_b. that the Orders were hiding evidence of neglect from them.

Neither the Church nor the State can claim they didn't know about these abuses; they were brought to the attention of both the Department of Health and the Papal Nuncio.
I'd say a Freedom of Information from every paper is probably working it's way through the civil service right now.

Don't forget that the general population also knew..
Families persisted in forcing young girls into these institutions even though they knew the care was sub standard and that no regard was being shown for the babies born there. But the population conveniently turned a blind eye as it was a way of hiding their shame, it suited them very well.

For those calling for the end of the church, should the state not also be disbanded as a republic for being implicit in this and indeed paying for this to be done.

It needs to be realised that this was society wide, it was accepted and essentially approved off by all.

While the actual location of these mass graves and their scale were unknown, I think deep down we as a nation have known this issue was out there waiting to come forward. Really can anyone honestly say they didn't know this was common practice. In the same vain whole swathes of society outside the church knew about clerical abuses but nothing was done.

By making this point I mean in no way to detract from the responsibility that must be taken by the Church, but we need to be realistic and factual, this was a far wider society failure, and those calling for "accountability" could easily look back at their own grandparents and family for the same "accountability"

_Brian · 05-06-2014 4:44pm

kneemos wrote: »

The mass grave was in the news weeks ago yet nobody pays attention until it gets foreign publicity?
The Government knew about this grave since the seventies,nobody says a word?

I'm not sure if it was malicious or not but during the 70's wasn't it thought to be a famine burial plot and so covered over to protect it (or hide the nasty reality it is).

munchkin_utd · 05-06-2014 4:45pm

rotun wrote: »

Protestant home in Southside Dublin with similar infant mortality statistics.

This is a shameful shameful country.
Any old cotger who goes around with a superiority complex wants to have a long look at themselves.

shhhhhh

we are only supposed to bash the catholic church because its the only institution that ever got anything wrong.

Gambas · 05-06-2014 4:47pm

kneemos wrote: »

The mass grave was in the news weeks ago yet nobody pays attention until it gets foreign publicity?
The Government knew about this grave since the seventies,nobody says a word?

Who is 'the government'? We've had a number of different ones since the 70's. And none of them would have known anything about this burial site.

People in state run organisations may have been aware of it in the past, but I doubt there is anyone now, over 50 years after it closed that would have had any knowledge of this.

drumswan · 05-06-2014 4:48pm

_Brian wrote: »

For those calling for the end of the church, should the state not also be disbanded as a republic for being implicit in this and indeed paying for this to be done.

We have the means to reform the state and should do so, yes.

The RCC should be removed from anything to do with children or the otherwise vunerable immediately.

It needs to be realised that this was society wide, it was accepted and essentially approved off by all.

You are right, everyone knew about these things and said nothing. But there was no-one to say anything to. All branches of the state, especially the Gardai, were under the influence of the church. My parents describe a state akin to the GDR run under the Stasi.

Gambas · 05-06-2014 4:49pm

_Brian wrote: »

Don't forget that the general population also knew...

...

By making this point I mean in no way to detract from the responsibility that must be taken by the Church, but we need to be realistic and factual, this was a far wider society failure, and those calling for "accountability" could easily look back at their own grandparents and family for the same "accountability"

The awkward truth.

Waitsian · 05-06-2014 4:51pm

_Brian wrote: »

For those calling for the end of the church, should the state not also be disbanded as a republic

I can't speak for others but in my opinion this state has been rotten since the day it was created. We need a new constitution to begin with and the Catholic church still has far too much control and influence in our society.

snaphook · 05-06-2014 4:53pm

_Brian wrote: »

While the actual location of these mass graves and their scale were unknown, I think deep down we as a nation have known this issue was out there waiting to come forward. Really can anyone honestly say they didn't know this was common practice. In the same vain whole swathes of society outside the church knew about clerical abuses but nothing was done.

I didn't know that retrofitting Septic tanks for the disposal (not buriel) of the dead children of 'fallen' women was a common practice.

_Brian · 05-06-2014 4:54pm

Gambas wrote: »

Who is 'the government'? We've had a number of different ones since the 70's. And none of them would have known anything about this burial site.

People in state run organisations may have been aware of it in the past, but I doubt there is anyone now, over 50 years after it closed that would have had any knowledge of this.

Its interesting from a non practicing Christian perspective..

Its been more than 50 years so the State gets absolved from its responsibilities.. And yet the church (after the same 50 years) must take responsibility and accountability. We can't have it every way..

Truthfully I think the only recourse is a non partisan, non national investigation team. Bring in independent people, have an honesty amnesty for those willing to make full and frank disclosure of the facts to the satisfaction of this team. It would be much more benificial as a society if we could face the full scale of these horrors and deal with them. Dragging this out over years and decades with poorly run and half arsed investigations does no good at all, .

_Brian · 05-06-2014 4:56pm

snaphook wrote: »

I didn't know that retrofitting Septic tanks for the disposal (not buriel) of the dead children of 'fallen' women was a common practice.

Like I said, the locations nor scale were unknown, but its been long known that neglected babies died and were not ever given any dignity in their burial..

rotun · 05-06-2014 5:00pm

Is it not worse so that the government of the time gave religious orders carte blanche over its citizens without full and proper ongoing checks?

a full enquiry from a board made up of international members should be held.

I don't trust Irish power mongers, be they political or religious, to complete it impartially.

Little CuChulainn · 05-06-2014 5:12pm

_Brian wrote: »

Its interesting from a non practicing Christian perspective..

Its been more than 50 years so the State gets absolved from its responsibilities.. And yet the church (after the same 50 years) must take responsibility and accountability. We can't have it every way..

Truthfully I think the only recourse is a non partisan, non national investigation team. Bring in independent people, have an honesty amnesty for those willing to make full and frank disclosure of the facts to the satisfaction of this team. It would be much more benificial as a society if we could face the full scale of these horrors and deal with them. Dragging this out over years and decades with poorly run and half arsed investigations does no good at all, .

This is indeed the only way. People need to understand that there will be no prosecutions for this stuff. The people likely to be responsible are all dead or dying. All we can hope for is the truth.

tricky D · 05-06-2014 5:32pm

For starters, here's some suggested places to look next:

Goldenbridge, Inchicore
Poor Clares/St Josephs, Cavan

and then the rest of the iceberg

Hootanany · 05-06-2014 6:34pm

Surely the Civil servants seconded to the Government of the day should be held accountable.
They are always there Governments go they stay?

suicide_circus · 05-06-2014 10:02pm

it must be remembered that these girls ended up in these institutions because they were sent there by their families. if there is such a thing as national "collective guilt", it must surely apply here.

rotun · 05-06-2014 10:06pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

it must be remembered that these girls ended up in these institutions because they were sent there by their families. if there is such a thing as national "collective guilt", it must surely apply here.

True, but the families were put under severe pressure by the weekly Sunday pulpit sermon

suicide_circus · 05-06-2014 10:10pm

rotun wrote: »

True, but the families were put under severe pressure by the weekly Sunday pulpit sermon

true but they had free will that they chose not to exercise.

Germans who ignored nazi commands would very likely have ended up dead while Irish who ignored the RCC might have ended up ostracized but still alive.

Little CuChulainn · 05-06-2014 10:15pm

rotun wrote: »

True, but the families were put under severe pressure by the weekly Sunday pulpit sermon

That's such bull****. I hate when people throw this argument around. I don't care how much influence the church had, it should be plainly obvious to anyone that forcing young girls into slave labour and starving their children to death was not part of Gods plan. It should have been obvious to anyone that abusing and raping children was not an acceptable activity for a member of the clergy. There's no doubt the church had a lot of influence but if parents back then had an ounce of decency about them they would have been rioting in the streets over the way their children were treated instead of looking the other way. It simply boggles my mind that people could rebel so fiercely against English rule yet let the church away with much greater crimes.

the_syco · 05-06-2014 10:22pm

kneemos wrote: »

The mass grave was in the news weeks ago yet nobody pays attention until it gets foreign publicity?
The Government knew about this grave since the seventies,nobody says a word?

Probably afraid how much it'll cost them, knowing full well the churches will still play the "poor me card" and not give any money.

_Brian wrote: »

I'm not sure if it was malicious or not but during the 70's wasn't it thought to be a famine burial plot and so covered over to protect it (or hide the nasty reality it is).

I've no doubt they knew what it was, but got people to people to avoid it by blaming it on the famine. Remember; when it was found, these homes were still running.

suicide_circus wrote: »

it must be remembered that these girls ended up in these institutions because they were sent there by their families. if there is such a thing as national "collective guilt", it must surely apply here.

Priests and the Gardai could also put women into it, as could the rapists themselves put their victims into the asylums.

rotun · 05-06-2014 10:34pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That's such bull****. I hate when people throw this argument around. I don't care how much influence the church had, it should be plainly obvious to anyone that forcing young girls into slave labour and starving their children to death was not part of Gods plan. It should have been obvious to anyone that abusing and raping children was not an acceptable activity for a member of the clergy. There's no doubt the church had a lot of influence but if parents back then had an ounce of decency about them they would have been rioting in the streets over the way their children were treated instead of looking the other way. It simply boggles my mind that people could rebel so fiercely against English rule yet let the church away with much greater crimes.

I'm throwing nothing around. Just trying to come to terms with what's coming to light.

rotun · 05-06-2014 10:36pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

true but they had free will that they chose not to exercise.

Germans who ignored nazi commands would very likely have ended up dead while Irish who ignored the RCC might have ended up ostracized but still alive.

Don't get me wrong I'm not excusing it for one second.

woodoo · 06-06-2014 12:12am

Those nuns were nothing short of murderers.

mikemac1 · 06-06-2014 4:50am

the culture of deference wrote: »

time to remove the Catholic church from existence

You'll need to remove the Church of Ireland from existence while you're at it

Bethany House in Rathgar, Dublin was COI and also had huge mortality rates

100 out of 180 babies dead in one home in the 1950s

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