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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam
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Interesting and potentially invaluable project and I will be doing what I can to help it.
Mass Graves in Ireland: A Crowdsourcing Project
This site has been set up to crowd-source oral and documentary evidence about mass graves at religious-run institutional homes in Ireland.
It was inspired by the work of local historian Catherine Corless who uncovered the death records of 796 unburied children in Tuam, Co Galway. These children are thought to be buried in a septic tank on the grounds of the former ‘Children’s Home’, run by the Bons Secours order of nuns. There has been an extremely slow response from the traditional media and the Government to this shocking discovery.
TheJournal.ie has comprehensive coverage of the Tuam case and the national and international reactions.
Many members of the public commenting on the Tuam case have said that there were also unmarked burial sites in their areas. It is quite probable that this practice was widespread.
A statewide investigation is necessary, not just into Tuam, and this site aims to gather oral and documentary evidence from the public, local historians and other sources.
Submit Your Information
If you have an oral account, a photograph, a map, a newspaper clipping or other information about mass graves in your area, please submit it to this site. All submissions will be moderated.
Help with this Project
This project needs help in the following areas:
Experts to help evaluate the submissions. If you are a historian, an archivist, a librarian, a local historian, a geographer, an archaelogist, or similar, and would like to help, please contact us
Get the word out - please share this site with your friends and family, and encourage them to share their stories
- See more at: http://massgravesireland.tumblr.com/post/87882072424/welcome-to-the-20th-century-mass-graves-in-ireland-site#sthash.5Al0lNVT.dpuf0 -
I think your post is apt and sensible. The only thought I'd add is to consider the extent to which the Church reflected and underwrote that society. It fit, as a way of achieving consensus around beliefs and assumptions.So different classes of Irish society saw very different sides of the nuns, Christan brothers and priests.
Mary Robinson, who's life is almost a parody of an Irish liberal, considered joining the Sacred Heart Sisters. Presumably that reflected her experience of them as teachers. That's the same society we all live in.
When the Bon Secours Medical Group doesn't account for about 15% of private hospital income, it might be evidence of people thinking the Church is no longer underwriting the life they want to lead. When people aren't willing to pay €5,000 a year to send their daughters to Mary Robinson's old school, now held in a trust to protect the ethos of the Sacred Heart Sisters, that might mean something.
We're not just investigating the Church. We're investigating the society that we're part of.0 -
Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Things get worse,
If I'm reading this right, the housing estate is where the septic tank was.
So thie big question if thats the case is.....where the hell did all the bones go when the houses were built?!?!?
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/05/the-septic-tank-was-in-this-location/“The grounds where the unmarked mass grave apparently containing the remains of nearly 800 infants who died at the Bon Secours mother-and-baby home in Tuam Co Galway from 1925-1961 rests. The site is now part of the Dublin Road housing estate and records show that the former mother and baby home’s septic tank was in this location. The names of the children buried here have been confirmed by Catherine’s’ research and she hopes to raise funds to erect a plaque as a memorial to them. JP has written two books on the subject detailing his mother’s life and his own.”0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »Interesting and potentially invaluable project and I will be doing what I can to help it.
Mass Graves in Ireland: A Crowdsourcing Project
This site has been set up to crowd-source oral and documentary evidence about mass graves at religious-run institutional homes in Ireland.
It was inspired by the work of local historian Catherine Corless who uncovered the death records of 796 unburied children in Tuam, Co Galway. These children are thought to be buried in a septic tank on the grounds of the former ‘Children’s Home’, run by the Bons Secours order of nuns. There has been an extremely slow response from the traditional media and the Government to this shocking discovery.
TheJournal.ie has comprehensive coverage of the Tuam case and the national and international reactions.
Many members of the public commenting on the Tuam case have said that there were also unmarked burial sites in their areas. It is quite probable that this practice was widespread.
A statewide investigation is necessary, not just into Tuam, and this site aims to gather oral and documentary evidence from the public, local historians and other sources.
Submit Your Information
If you have an oral account, a photograph, a map, a newspaper clipping or other information about mass graves in your area, please submit it to this site. All submissions will be moderated.
Help with this Project
This project needs help in the following areas:
Experts to help evaluate the submissions. If you are a historian, an archivist, a librarian, a local historian, a geographer, an archaelogist, or similar, and would like to help, please contact us
Get the word out - please share this site with your friends and family, and encourage them to share their stories
- See more at: http://massgravesireland.tumblr.com/post/87882072424/welcome-to-the-20th-century-mass-graves-in-ireland-site#sthash.5Al0lNVT.dpuf
I love you Bann! This is exactly the reason crowd sourcing should exist.
Depend on the authorities to document the horrible history of our "authority figures"? Nah, let's do this ourselves!
I've shared this on social networks and after chatting to my Mum this weekend, she told me about one that is in the town I grew up just outside. There's about 100 bodies buried (actually buried and not dumped in a septic tank at least) so the next time I'm down there, I'll get pictures and see if I can get some more info from the locals.0 -
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I'm just as interested in who put up the statue in the glass box.So thie big question if thats the case is.....where the hell did all the bones go when the houses were built?!?!?
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/05/the-septic-tank-was-in-this-location/0 -
If I'm reading this right, the housing estate is where the septic tank was.
So thie big question if thats the case is.....where the hell did all the bones go when the houses were built?!?!?
No, I think this confirms my guesses upthread, the bones are still in the tank, and it is buried here, at the SE corner of the old workhouse.0 -
Has anyone even secured the site so it can be investigated??0
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The statue was put up by a man who lived nearby who tended the site for years .If not for him the photos you are looking at would be an overgrown wilderness0
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Holy ****! Just heard on the radio that there's 3 to 5 hundred in my home town!0
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smokingman wrote: »I love you Bann! This is exactly the reason crowd sourcing should exist.
Depend on the authorities to document the horrible history of our "authority figures"? Nah, let's do this ourselves!
I've shared this on social networks and after chatting to my Mum this weekend, she told me about one that is in the town I grew up just outside. There's about 100 bodies buried (actually buried and not dumped in a septic tank at least) so the next time I'm down there, I'll get pictures and see if I can get some more info from the locals.
Anything and everything helps.
Photos, maps - current and back to the 1836 survey, newspaper articles, info on undertakers, personal accounts etc etc.
Not just on graves but everything that can be found out about M&C Homes/religious orders in the area as it helps the experts to evaluate the material. Think CSI!0 -
There's pictures here of recent famine grave excavation close to the workhouse grounds in Tuam. http://historicgraves.com/blog/miscellanea/probable-workhouse-famine-burials-tuam
I've marked the location of the famine grave excavation in black and the location of the septic tank grave in red on the following image.
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aloyisious wrote: »The RCC should dissolve the order the nuns belong to and expel the nuns involved in the home from the church.
Honestly, the rcc should be told to get out of this country by the weekend, or be place permanently outside the law. Yes there are many good priests and nuns, and they should be left alone, but the church as an organisation is a monstrous evil (as continuing revelations attest nearly every day), and should not be permitted in a civilised society.0 -
Well, there has always been another view of Roman Catholicism here.Brian Shanahan wrote: »Honestly, the rcc should be told to get out of this country by the weekend, or be place permanently outside the law. Yes there are many good priests and nuns, and they should be left alone, but the church as an organisation is a monstrous evil (as continuing revelations attest nearly every day), and should not be permitted in a civilised society.
BEING CONVINCED in our consciences that Home Rule would be disastrous to the material well-being of Ulster as well as of the whole of Ireland, subversive of our civil and religious freedom, destructive of our citizenship, and perilous to the unity of the Empire, we, whose names are underwritten, men of Ulster, loyal subjects of His Gracious Majesty King George V., humbly relying on the God whom our fathers in days of stress and trial confidently trusted, do hereby pledge ourselves in solemn Covenant, throughout this our time of threatened calamity, to stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority. In sure confidence that God will defend the right, we hereto subscribe our names.
And further, we individually declare that we have not already signed this Covenant.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »Well, there has always been another view of Roman Catholicism here.
BEING CONVINCED in our consciences that Home Rule would be disastrous to the material well-being of Ulster as well as of the whole of Ireland, subversive of our civil and religious freedom, destructive of our citizenship, and perilous to the unity of the Empire, we, whose names are underwritten, men of Ulster, loyal subjects of His Gracious Majesty King George V., humbly relying on the God whom our fathers in days of stress and trial confidently trusted, do hereby pledge ourselves in solemn Covenant, throughout this our time of threatened calamity, to stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority. In sure confidence that God will defend the right, we hereto subscribe our names.
And further, we individually declare that we have not already signed this Covenant.
.....yes, and what a lovely bunch of progressive minds are behind that other view, based as it is on reason, humanism, respect....O sorry no, that's somebody else - no, its based on medival bigotry from a bunch who are as bad if not worse in some respects.0 -
So maybe its not the religion, per se? Maybe Irish Buddhists would exhibit similar behaviours?.....yes, and what a lovely bunch of progressive minds are behind that other view, based as it is on reason, humanism, respect....O sorry no, that's somebody else - no, its based on medival bigotry from a bunch who are as bad if not worse in some respects.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »So maybe its not the religion, per se? Maybe Irish Buddhists would exhibit similar behaviours?
Yes, that's an entirely logical progression there allright.....
My patience with you is- to put it mildly- limited, and that's on a good day. I will however say that this would seem far too sensitive a topic for this nonsense.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »Anything and everything helps.
Photos, maps - current and back to the 1836 survey, newspaper articles, info on undertakers, personal accounts etc etc.
Not just on graves but everything that can be found out about M&C Homes/religious orders in the area as it helps the experts to evaluate the material. Think CSI!
Oh don't you worry, this is personal so I'll keep you informed of progress.
Just to add a little context to why it is personal for me, I want to tell you a little about myself first.
I grew up about a mile outside a little country village. I grew up thinking my aunt on my Dads side was actually my aunt. I didn't find out until college years that she was in fact my cousin.
Now, she had a slight mental handicap and while some people saw her as "just a bit simple", she couldn't really take care of herself and lived with my granny and my actual uncle who was much more handicapped due to a lack of oxygen at birth (umbilical chord had wrapped around his throat).
All the years growing up thinking that was the relationship was finally brought to an end when my Mum sat me down and explained what really happened.
I have a real aunt that lives in New York and she comes back home every few years. She is a dote of a woman; very gentle and unassuming and just plain lovely. Turns out, who I thought was my aunt was actually this aunts daughter.
Her story goes thus:
When she was 16, she was raped by a local farmers son. When this was found out, my aunt was ostracized from the family, the farmers sons whole family moved to England to get away from the scandal and she ended up in the local Mother And Baby home. She was put to work pulling turnips in fields and was worked by the nuns there up to the actual birth of the child. The turnip picking was always accompanied by being hit with sally rods or other sticks by the nuns and there were plenty of other women treated exactly the same.
A story my Dad told me years ago included him as an eight year old passing by with his Dad and seeing a heavily pregnant woman being beaten in the turnip field screaming for help as she thought she was giving birth. My Grandad rushed over with my Dad in tow, threatened the nun to stop her and helping with the birth of the child right there in the field. I don't know if this was what prompted it, but my aunt was brought home soon after that and my Grandparents begged for forgiveness from my aunt for sending her there and treating her so badly. The child was born but the community turned against my family so much seeing my aunt was still there, that the decision was taken that the baby should be raised as my Grandparents child and my aunt was to find a new life in America with help from a relation that lived there.
Turned out, her new life in America was not a whole lot better as the Irish community she went to, treated her just the same as the ones back home and she was regularly beaten and spat at for being a "fallen" woman.
Now I learn that there are between 300 and 500 bodies in that Mother and Baby homes' unmarked graveyard. My cousin could well have ended up in that graveyard and right now, I want to know everything I possibly can about this place and try to find out the details of what went on so that I can document this part of my family history.
I'm sure a lot of Irish people are in the same situation with relatives not being who they thought they were and I'm curious to find out, if I gather and publish my family's story, will it be a similar one to that of a lot more people on this island?0 -
smokingman wrote: »Oh don't you worry, this is personal so I'll keep you informed of progress.
Just to add a little context to why it is personal for me, I want to tell you a little about myself first.
I grew up about a mile outside a little country village. I grew up thinking my aunt on my Dads side was actually my aunt. I didn't find out until college years that she was in fact my cousin.
Now, she had a slight mental handicap and while some people saw her as "just a bit simple", she couldn't really take care of herself and lived with my granny and my actual uncle who was much more handicapped due to a lack of oxygen at birth (umbilical chord had wrapped around his throat).
All the years growing up thinking that was the relationship was finally brought to an end when my Mum sat me down and explained what really happened.
I have a real aunt that lives in New York and she comes back home every few years. She is a dote of a woman; very gentle and unassuming and just plain lovely. Turns out, who I thought was my aunt was actually this aunts daughter.
Her story goes thus:
When she was 16, she was raped by a local farmers son. When this was found out, my aunt was ostracized from the family, the farmers sons whole family moved to England to get away from the scandal and she ended up in the local Mother And Baby home. She was put to work pulling turnips in fields and was worked by the nuns there up to the actual birth of the child. The turnip picking was always accompanied by being hit with sally rods or other sticks by the nuns and there were plenty of other women treated exactly the same.
A story my Dad told me years ago included him as an eight year old passing by with his Dad and seeing a heavily pregnant woman being beaten in the turnip field screaming for help as she thought she was giving birth. My Grandad rushed over with my Dad in tow, threatened the nun to stop her and helping with the birth of the child right there in the field. I don't know if this was what prompted it, but my aunt was brought home soon after that and my Grandparents begged for forgiveness from my aunt for sending her there and treating her so badly. The child was born but the community turned against my family so much seeing my aunt was still there, that the decision was taken that the baby should be raised as my Grandparents child and my aunt was to find a new life in America with help from a relation that lived there.
Turned out, her new life in America was not a whole lot better as the Irish community she went to, treated her just the same as the ones back home and she was regularly beaten and spat at for being a "fallen" woman.
Now I learn that there are between 300 and 500 bodies in that Mother and Baby homes' unmarked graveyard. My cousin could well have ended up in that graveyard and right now, I want to know everything I possibly can about this place and try to find out the details of what went on so that I can document this part of my family history.
I'm sure a lot of Irish people are in the same situation with relatives not being who they thought they were and I'm curious to find out, if I gather and publish my family's story, will it be a similar one to that of a lot more people on this island?
It was also quite common in Scotland and the north of England for a sister to turn out to actually be the mother - either that or I just happened to meet all of them.
Please. Find out their story and publish it. Give a voice to the voiceless if you can. It will most likely turn out to be both common and unique.0 -
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99.9% of the time I'd oppose vigilante action on this scale, but the nuns who inflicted misery upon the women locked up in the Mother and Baby Homes and Magdalene Laundries should be dragged out of their beds in the middle of the night, blindfolded and then brought to the graveyards in those institutions. Perhaps they should be subjected to the Oberyn Martell treatment - instead of, "You raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children!" there's, "You imprisoned her, you abused her and you abused her children!" Let's see how many names of the inmates which are inscribed upon those tombstones - without a "Sr" prefix, of course - they can remember.0
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PopePalpatine wrote: »99.9% of the time I'd oppose vigilante action on this scale, but the nuns who inflicted misery upon the women locked up in the Mother and Baby Homes and Magdalene Laundries should be dragged out of their beds in the middle of the night, blindfolded and then brought to the graveyards in those institutions. Perhaps they should be subjected to the Oberyn Martell treatment - instead of, "You raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children!" there's, "You imprisoned her, you abused her and you abused her children!" Let's see how many names of the inmates which are inscribed upon those tombstones - without a "Sr" prefix, of course - they can remember.
You do know many of them never wanted to be nuns in the first place and ended up in the convent as young teenagers or straight out of orphanages themselves?
You got a roof over your head, regular meals, secure job, no man bossing you about everyday, care in your old age and if so inclined further education. More than many women in Ireland could hope for..0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »It was also quite common in Scotland and the north of England for a sister to turn out to actually be the mother - either that or I just happened to meet all of them.
Please. Find out their story and publish it. Give a voice to the voiceless if you can. It will most likely turn out to be both common and unique.
I will indeed Bann. I may even start a blog to keep track of it all.
Right now, I have stories I remember my Dad telling me in notepad format and from my own recollection of his telling. I have a lot of different sites with reference material and this blurb I found from a few years back reflects the sanitized, family-friendly PR that was put out about this horrific hole even up to recently:In 1934, the Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and Mary bought the Pollard Manor House and estate from the Pollard family. This was a Cork based order and many of the approximate twenty nuns were natives of Munster. They built a hospital and a church (with a stained glass window designed by the famous Harry Clarke) with the view to starting a mother and child home. At that time in Ireland, young unmarried girls that became pregnant were considered to bring embarrassment upon their family. Therefore as pregnancy advanced and became more obvious, the girls were sent to a mother and child home. This was usually arranged by the parents with the help of the local doctor or the Parish priest. On other occasions, the pregnant girl presented herself without the knowledge of her family. These girls came from far and wide, many arriving on the bus from Dublin. There were up to 200 girls there at any one time.
The nuns put great emphasis on ensuring the privacy of the girls and towards this end devised many strategies.
Ø On admission, they were given a different first name and thereafter known as Miss Mary, Miss Bernadette, Miss Josephine etc.
Ø Each week a bag of letters were sent to an English convent to be stamped and posted back to the girls’ families in Ireland. The reason was to add credence to the rumour that the girl had gone to England to work.
Ø Contact between the convent and the townspeople was kept to a minimum and neither the nuns nor the girls ventured beyond the convent gates. Furthermore, groceries were delivered from Dublin.
Ø When two girls came from the same area every effort was made to keep them apart by locating them in different parts of the complex.
The convent was for the most part self sufficient. The large walled garden provided a plentiful supply of fruit and vegetables. The farm provided milk, butter, bacon, poultry and eggs. The girls contributed to their keep by working in the kitchens, laundry or farm.
There was a doctor on call but a midwife resident in the convent delivered the majority of the babies. Occasionally a difficult birth would require the girl to be brought by ambulance to a Dublin hospital. The babies were baptised in the Convent chapel and reared in the nursery wing until adopted or fostered. Up to the mid 1950s there was no legal adoption in Ireland and therefore many of the babies were adopted by Americans. When adoption became legal in Ireland, a greater number of the babies were adopted by Irish couples. The girls were free to leave the convent once their child was adopted or fostered. Afterwards many of the girls went to England to jobs arranged by the nuns in their hospitals or convents. As time went on and attitudes changed, the need for such homes waned and in 1971 the building was taken over by the Midland Health Board.
This rubbish sickens me to the core as even as a child, I knew that would have been all lies. Even though I didn't get told about my Aunt/Cousin then, my parents were not ones to hide their distaste for that place and told me stories of the nuns abuse without letting the secret slip.
I have a plan to get myself a dictaphone and sit down with my Dad next time I'm home to get as many memories as possible recorded. He is a man with an utterly amazing memory (and the most amazing engineer I've ever met, which explains where I am myself in life I guess). He is much more comfortable talking about that time these days but I can see in him that he's nearly looking over his shoulder when he tells me of what happened back then.
History is a big thing in my family with traces back to 1600s Netherlands origins so this is something of a passion already.
Thank you for the crowd sourcing link Bann, it is something I hadn't thought of but is the perfect outlet for my rage about what my family went through.0 -
Hardly sensitive, as it relates to the last century. But, sure, I'm sure the desire to cultivate a sense of moral outrage is very Irish indeed.Yes, that's an entirely logical progression there allright.....
My patience with you is- to put it mildly- limited, and that's on a good day. I will however say that this would seem far too sensitive a topic for this nonsense.0 -
In a wider context where 80% of people born in the 1930s ended up emigrating in the 1950s, it quite probably was the best available option for some. And it wasn't especially that we were short of people. The population dipped below 3 million in the 1920s, and didn't exceed it again until the early 1970s. There was something in the social structure that made it hard to find space for new people.Bannasidhe wrote: »You got a roof over your head, regular meals, secure job, no man bossing you about everyday, care in your old age and if so inclined further education. More than many women in Ireland could hope for..
And, of course, a deep hostility to anyone not going with the mood. Not that you'd find that kind of thing nowadays.0 -
The reports on TV/Radio about this seem unreal, with one news report stating the bodies may have been buried in several locations and then moved to the tank for re-burial. I don't know if that's factual or not, as that sounds even more ghoulish. Re the tank, and the reports that the deaths and burials took place over four decades, I got to wondering when the tank fell out of usage as a septic tank. I'm assuming that the home must have got a new system in place first, which may give investigators an approx start-date for it's use as a burial chamber. I always thought such a tank would be a death-trap for the unwary, re people being overcome by gases, so assume that if it was used as a septic tank it must have been well ventilated before being used as a burial chamber. I can only describe the story as it's emerging as being one of an unholy alliance of religious and civil society. The story certainly is an opposite to the orders name and in variance with it's founder's intent: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBon_Secours_Sisters&ei=uPmQU8eDBenn7Ab__IGICA&usg=AFQjCNGxEmV8b3_Z1CU1C5MAq27vQAx5eQ&bvm=bv.68445247,d.ZGU0
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Where are these children now?
Are they still in the pit?0 -
Unfortunately, true to form, we're inventing the myth before we've much objective fact. International media are covering the story as if 800 actual skeletons were recently found on the site. However, the actual position seems to be that records in the custody of Galway County Council list 800 children who died in this institution. We've also a statement to the effect that children found skulls on this site some time in the 1970s.aloyisious wrote: »
Unless I've missed something, no-one has yet taken a spade to see if this location actually contains a huge amount of human bones. But, sure, no need to wait for that. Facts are just commonly accepted assertions, not things that you actually validate by comparing to reality.
Core Irish value number 1. You can just make stuff up, if it's what people want to hear anyway.0 -
aloyisious wrote: »The reports on TV/Radio about this seem unreal, with one news report stating the bodies may have been buried in several locations and then moved to the tank for re-burial. I don't know if that's factual or not, as that sounds even more ghoulish. Re the tank, and the reports that the deaths and burials took place over four decades, I got to wondering when the tank fell out of usage as a septic tank. I'm assuming that the home must have got a new system in place first, which may give investigators an approx start-date for it's use as a burial chamber. I always thought such a tank would be a death-trap for the unwary, re people being overcome by gases, so assume that if it was used as a septic tank it must have been well ventilated before being used as a burial chamber. I can only describe the story as it's emerging as being one of an unholy alliance of religious and civil society. The story certainly is an opposite to the orders name and in variance with it's founder's intent: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBon_Secours_Sisters&ei=uPmQU8eDBenn7Ab__IGICA&usg=AFQjCNGxEmV8b3_Z1CU1C5MAq27vQAx5eQ&bvm=bv.68445247,d.ZGU
The tank was still on use by at least 1940.
Evidence of still being used in some of of these documents here:
https://storify.com/Limerick1914/children-s-home-in-tuam-1920s-1960s0 -
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GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
....
Core Irish value number 1. You can just make stuff up, if it's what the RCC want people to hear anyway.
FYP :P0
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