Season 4 Episode 7 "Mockingbird": *HAVE* read the books

Gbear

One minor foible - Jon constantly refuses to seal up the gate in the books.

If they make Jon change his mind based on Thorne's advice that would be interesting growth for his character but if they don't it's a bit strange that they'd switch it.

bopper

poundapunnet wrote: »

Re: the Melisandre scene, I thought it fit in fairly nicely with a broader theme of facing unpleasant truths. The peasant man has to face the nothingness of death, Tyrion has to come to terms with Bronn's very good reasons for not fighting the Mountain (and by implication his own probable death), Dany has to face up to realities of ruling, etc. At first I was a bit peeved that some male nudity was IMMEDIATELY counteracted by completely gratuitous female nudity, but then I remembered what show I was watching and also that seeing Carice Van Houten in the bath is a very good problem to have. (Damn, girl)

I've actually noticed a lot of discussion about how the nudity in this episode. It went directly from a short, slightly out of focus shot of Daario's rear (where you can't even tell if it's the actual actor who plays him) to a scene where Melisandre is naked for 80% of it. It didn't exactly do much for the shows reputation of unbalanced nudity!

poundapunnet

bopper wrote: »

I've actually noticed a lot of discussion about how the nudity in this episode. It went directly from a short, slightly out of focus shot of Daario's rear (where you can't even tell if it's the actual actor who plays him) to a scene where Melisandre is naked for 80% of it. It didn't exactly do much for the shows reputation of unbalanced nudity!

Honestly it never bothered me too much, it's only women in the nip like. This is the second occasion this season though (the other being Craster's Keep) where it nearly seems like they're baiting the people who've been critical of it. Emilia Clarke seems to have negotiated some new terms for herself too, I've practically forgotten what her nipples look like.

Witcher

Gbear wrote: »

One minor foible - Jon constantly refuses to seal up the gate in the books.

If they make Jon change his mind based on Thorne's advice that would be interesting growth for his character but if they don't it's a bit strange that they'd switch it.

A giant smashes through it in the coming battle so they're making Jon out to be the one with all the right ideas. He'll maintain his stance on it and be proved right.

Gbear

Blay wrote: »

A giant smashes through it in the coming battle so they're making Jon out to be the one with all the right ideas. He'll maintain his stance on it and be proved right.

I suppose, his stance was after he was made LC, after they'd defeated Mance and with a full garrison.

bopper

poundapunnet wrote: »

Honestly it never bothered me too much, it's only women in the nip like. This is the second occasion this season though (the other being Craster's Keep) where it nearly seems like they're baiting the people who've been critical of it. Emilia Clarke seems to have negotiated some new terms for herself too, I've practically forgotten what her nipples look like.

The female nudity doesn't bother me either, but I think the argument of the male to female nudity ratio is an accurate one. I agree that it seemed as if they were baiting those who complain about, but I don't actually think that's the case. It was probably just a bad idea to put those two scenes back to back!

Yes apparently she refused to do anymore nude scenes after season two.

poundapunnet

bopper wrote: »

The female nudity doesn't bother me either, but I think the argument of the male to female nudity ratio is an accurate one. I agree that it seemed as if they were baiting those who complain about, but I don't actually think that's the case. It was probably just a bad idea to put those two scenes back to back!

Yes apparently she refused to do anymore nude scenes after season two.

Oh it's definitely accurate and their coyness around male nudity can be pretty annoying.

Just had a read of the non-book readers thread and that's some bizarre behaviour. The person isn't even being subtle about it! when people are making 'predictions' like that and spelling all the names and places right it's definitely dodgy.

mewso

While I agree about the Mountain looking too young has nobody found it a stretch that Oberyn is supposed to be older than Tyrion. It doesn't bother me so I suppose it shouldn't bother me that the Mountain looks younger than the hound (but it does for some reason).

On the non readers thread and spoilers the guy who has spoken about the poison and so on also suggested Tyrion would be found innocent in that scenario. Why do people who like to complain about suspicious posters ignore the part of their post that doesn't support their claim?

I'm probably in an even smaller group that doesn't think book readers should be posting over there in any capacity whatsoever even to be helpful or whatever. Leave them completely to their own devices I say and ignore suspicious posts lest you give them credence.

As to the episode I really enjoyed it. I actually was surprised Littlefinger kissed Sansa. Thought they would chicken out of that as if my calculations are correct she would have been 17 when it was filmed. Not that big a deal really.

Oberyn is a fantastic character played so well. I hope they do some good casting for the Dorne stuff next season.

Burt Macklin

Anyone else feel like the Jaime/Tyrion discussion was an opportunity missed to remind show-watchers about Tysha and what happened to her.

Obviously I'm not certain if 'Wherever whores go' will be cut or not, but they did mention Tysha in season one in Tyrion's conversation with Shae and Bronn. And in season 3 when Tywin proposed the marriage to Sansa, didn't Tyrion reply by saying something like ''I was married once, or don't you remember?'

When he told Jaime 'I fell in love with a whore' referring to Shae, they could have stuck a reminder in to catch people up.

mewso

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Anyone else feel like the Jaime/Tyrion discussion was an opportunity missed to remind show-watchers about Tysha and what happened to her.

Obviously I'm not certain if 'Wherever whores go' will be cut or not, but they did mention Tysha in season one in Tyrion's conversation with Shae and Bronn. And in season 3 when Tywin proposed the marriage to Sansa, didn't Tyrion reply by saying something like ''I was married once, or don't you remember?'

When he told Jaime 'I fell in love with a whore' referring to Shae, they could have stuck a reminder in to catch people up.

Yeah I was fully expecting Tyrion to add "again" but actually the awkward silence kind of achieved a similar thing. They were both thinking about Tysha in that silence and it was a nice subtle touch for readers or those who haven't forgotten the story.

RaidII

bopper wrote: »

The female nudity doesn't bother me either, but I think the argument of the male to female nudity ratio is an accurate one. I agree that it seemed as if they were baiting those who complain about, but I don't actually think that's the case. It was probably just a bad idea to put those two scenes back to back!

Yes apparently she refused to do anymore nude scenes after season two.

I'd say a larger percentage of the fanbase want to see female nudity though. Only problem I have with it is the overuse of nudity in general, but then again all the actors are good looking so can't complain too much. They're basically giving fans what they want

lynski

mewso wrote: »

While I agree about the Mountain looking too young has nobody found it a stretch that Oberyn is supposed to be older than Tyrion. It doesn't bother me so I suppose it shouldn't bother me that the Mountain looks younger than the hound (but it does for some reason).

I think he does look older, he has spoken about his grown daughters and he is the same age is Cersei/Jamie as they were to be jointly betrothed with Elia IIRC, which he does not mention, so his blame for Elia goes way back.

I cant believe I forgot the hound and arya show in my earlier post, awesomeness. loved it, i thought that the way arya killed royce(sp) was perfect, he was so mesmerised by the injured hound, so scared of the one who had just killed his comrade that he did not see 'arry. coming. and boom she is a stone-cold killer.
No way she will actually give him the mercy though, too good for him, she will leave him die by the side of the road.

celica00

I thought she left him anyway in the book? instead of killing him...cant remember

poundapunnet

RaidII wrote: »

I'd say a larger percentage of the fanbase want to see female nudity though. Only problem I have with it is the overuse of nudity in general, but then again all the actors are good looking so can't complain too much. They're basically giving fans what they want

Na. I think that assumption that it's what the fans want stemmed at least partly from a lazy idea of fantasy and sci-fi people = male. There was also a pretty insulting lack of confidence in the audience with the whole sexposition stuff in series one.

A quick look at tumblr or any fansite will show pretty quickly that there's a large contingent of devoted female fans, and I don't think many of them would be complaining if Kit, Nikolai and some of the others had weekly sex-scenes (preferably together!). It's the usual old crap of female nudity sells, and male nudity is rightly or wrongly perceived as something that'd be very off-putting for male viewers. It's hardly unique to GOT, the sheer amount and gratuity of the female nudity combined with the regular sexual violence means people get a bit more riled up about it is all. It's very much the exception rather than the rule for any film or TV show to treat the audience equally in the amount of nudity that gets presented for their delectation, let alone to favour the women.

lynski

I cant imagine anyone would object to Pedro Pascal getting his kit off ;-)

Meathlass

Anyone else have a problem with the Littlefinger/Sansa kiss? I thought she would pull away almost instantly but she didn't. Didn't really ring true that a 15 year old wouldn't be uncomfortable with this.

Thought this whole scene was much stronger in the books, especially when Robin used his doll to destroy Winterfell instead of 'accidentally' knocking a tower in the show. Sansa seemed to fly off the handle a little too quickly with him.

Meathlass

lynski wrote: »

I think he does look older, he has spoken about his grown daughters and he is the same age is Cersei/Jamie as they were to be jointly betrothed with Elia IIRC, which he does not mention, so his blame for Elia goes way back.

Yes Jamie/Cersei are ten years older than Tyrion so they're 40 and Tyrion is 30.

poundapunnet

lynski wrote: »

I cant imagine anyone would object to Pedro Pascal getting his kit off ;-)

In the immortal words of Donna

lynski

Meathlass wrote: »

Yes Jamie/Cersei are ten years older than Tyrion so they're 40 and Tyrion is 30.

four years older, i think they are 34/35, same as ned/cathelyn and tyrion is 30

bopper

RaidII wrote: »

I'd say a larger percentage of the fanbase want to see female nudity though. Only problem I have with it is the overuse of nudity in general, but then again all the actors are good looking so can't complain too much. They're basically giving fans what they want

Well, a percentage of fans as you've said. Plus they can still give those fans what they want. Upping the male nudity doesn't mean they have to decrease the female nudity.

I completely understand that the fantasy genre is known for having a heavy amount of female nudity, and it honestly doesn't bother me.

If the show starts to portray the message of "make sure the boobies outweigh the willies otherwise we'll scare the straight men away" then it kind of insults the quality of the show overall, and it also insults those percentage of fans that you're talking about if. I would presume the vast majority of fans are watching the show for reasons other than T&A. I'm sure that part is a nice bonus but I don't think ratings would exactly tumble if they balance the amount of nudity out, or simply cut it out altogether.

Plus, on a side note a recent study has shown that the percentage of males to females that discuss the show on social media is actually 58 to 42. Not as big a gap as some might think.

Meathlass

lynski wrote: »

four years older, i think they are 34/35, same as ned/cathelyn and tyrion is 30

No, pretty sure they're 10 years older. I've just finished re-reading ASOS so it's fresh in the mind. Plus in EP2 Joffrey calls Jamie a washed up, one handed 40 year old. Tywin also mentions he's 40 in the next episode.

Gbear

Meathlass wrote: »

No, pretty sure they're 10 years older. I've just finished re-reading ASOS so it's fresh in the mind. Plus in EP2 Joffrey calls Jamie a washed up, one handed 40 year old. Tywin also mentions he's 40 in the next episode.

They're aged up in the show. Jamie and Cersei are 34/5 in the books.

Meathlass

Gbear wrote: »

They're aged up in the show. Jamie and Cersei are 34/5 in the books.

Just found the info on asoiaf wiki. From the books: Jamie was 9 when Tryion was born so they seem to be the same age in books and tv.

Irrelevant anyway; it was just a correction to someone else.

lynski

mm interesting, always been a bugbear of mine that catlyn was seen as too old to marry again, but cersei is married off and expected to re-produce, surely they are more or less the same age and i dont remember any mention of change of life? maybe with a grownup son catelyn cant afford a succession question?

lynski

Meathlass wrote: »

Just found the info on asoiaf wiki. From the books: Jamie was 9 when Tryion was born so they seem to be the same age in books and tv.

Irrelevant anyway; it was just a correction to someone else.

ah, the wiki i read says 4 when tyrion was born

Nerdlingr

Meathlass wrote: »

Anyone else have a problem with the Littlefinger/Sansa kiss? I thought she would pull away almost instantly but she didn't. Didn't really ring true that a 15 year old wouldn't be uncomfortable with this.

Thought this whole scene was much stronger in the books, especially when Robin used his doll to destroy Winterfell instead of 'accidentally' knocking a tower in the show. Sansa seemed to fly off the handle a little too quickly with him.

Agree with all of this. Kiss lingered a little bit too long. She didnt push him away. She seemed to get awfully upset about one bit of a tower being knocked over "its ruined, I'll have to start all over". No you wont' just build that one tower again, you dont have to rebuild the whole damn thing!!! Didnt like the fact she used physical violence against him either, thought the pulling the head off the doll would have been a better way to send Robyn off crying.

Meathlass

lynski wrote: »

mm interesting, always been a bugbear of mine that catlyn was seen as too old to marry again, but cersei is married off and expected to re-produce, surely they are more or less the same age and i dont remember any mention of change of life? maybe with a grownup son catelyn cant afford a succession question?

Just checked the Wiki page again. Don't know what AC stands for!

Jamie/Cersei born: 266AC
Catelyn born: 264AC
Ned born: 263AC

Yeah wouldn't have thought 2 years would have made the different to ability to conceive!

Meathlass

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Agree with all of this. Kiss lingered a little bit too long. She didnt push him away. She seemed to get awfully upset about one bit of a tower being knocked over "its ruined, I'll have to start all over". No you wont' just build that one tower again, you dont have to rebuild the whole damn thing!!! Didnt like the fact she used physical violence against him either, thought the pulling the head off the doll would have been a better way to send Robyn off crying.

Yes! Completely agree. The embryonic relationship between Sansa and Petr should be seen as disturbing and predatory. In the books Sansa goes out of her way to avoid kissing him when she has to pretend to be his daughter. Here she seemed to be falling for some romantic fairytale.

Turtyturd

Meathlass wrote: »

Just found the info on asoiaf wiki. From the books: Jamie was 9 when Tryion was born so they seem to be the same age in books and tv.

Irrelevant anyway; it was just a correction to someone else.

There is the same age gap....they are not the same age.

Potatoeman

poundapunnet wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels like they're over-emphasising the "Cersei's an absolute unredeemed c*unt" thing a bit? I realise she's never the warmest and fuzziest of characters even in her POV's but seriously. Her being the one that rejected Jaime, Jaime and Tyrion having those quite touching scenes together, Oberyn showing up and going "guess what, she was a c*nt as a kid too! Jaime was alright though." And then even when they move into show-don't-tell, they show-don't-tell her sidling up to the Mountain and going "oh, you're slaughtering defenceless prisoners, jolly good!". It even seems like there's a callback to Tyrion's line about her "one redeeming feature" when Oberyn says she was trying to conceal her true motives (revenge against Tyrion) with a show of concern for her daughter.

Cersei actually has what passes for reasonable justification for all her rottenness in the context of the storyworld, and it seems like the show-runners actually fcuking HATE her.

Re: the Melisandre scene, I thought it fit in fairly nicely with a broader theme of facing unpleasant truths. The peasant man has to face the nothingness of death, Tyrion has to come to terms with Bronn's very good reasons for not fighting the Mountain (and by implication his own probable death), Dany has to face up to realities of ruling, etc. At first I was a bit peeved that some male nudity was IMMEDIATELY counteracted by completely gratuitous female nudity, but then I remembered what show I was watching and also that seeing Carice Van Houten in the bath is a very good problem to have. (Damn, girl)

Cersei's pretty bad in the book too but Jaime has more redeeming characteristics. She's cheating on him whereas he is sending Brien off to save the Stark girls.
Kat comes off more likable in the TV show too.