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Tragic yet worrying scenes in waterford last night

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    #362
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    There is no question, based on the available facts that if the guard had stayed in his home the HE WOULD NOT have been assaulted and this boy would still be alive. Its a chain of events that has his decision to confront those causing a nuisance to him as an integral part of the chain.

    No you're right, they should have been allowed to continue to damage cars, and vandalize the area, because if you chase them they might hurt themselves. Excellent logic!
    Might as well just disband the Gardai, we wouldn't want to inconvenience any criminals.


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    #363
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    There is no question, based on the available facts that if the guard had stayed in his home the HE WOULD NOT have been assaulted and this boy would still be alive. Its a chain of events that has his decision to confront those causing a nuisance to him as an integral part of the chain.

    No that is pure hippy hairy horse****.

    Anyone garda or not has the right to walk out their front door and tell anyone throwing stuff at their house to stop.


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    #364
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    It's just shocking to see human beings rejoicing in another human being's death. Maybe it shouldn't be. Maybe every time a boy racer smashes themselves to death we should all rejoice openly. But to me right now, from my point of view, it is shocking.

    I do, every time a boy racer or a drunk driver kills themselves and manages to not to kill an innocent civilian in the process, it does make me happy, because that's one less moron who could kill my family on the roads.


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    #365
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    TonyStark wrote: »
    I think people are entitled to live in peace. For all they knew the bottles could have gone through a window and injured a small child.

    I think being struck by a bottle is evidence enough for me the gents were up to no good. Drunk and disorderly is still a crime.

    Absolutely on all accounts. Support punishing people appropriate to their crime but dont rejoice in their deaths, its perverse.

    Its what we dont know which would establish how brazen a crime the assault with the bottle was. They didnt break into his home and attack him, he confronted them. Much is being made of the right to self defense for the guard but we dont know if he was the aggressor after he chased them down, do we? Maybe these chaps were acting in self defense? We cant judge the facts based on stereotypes


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    #366
    TonyStark
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭TonyStark


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    There is no question, based on the available facts that if the guard had stayed in his home the HE WOULD NOT have been assaulted and this boy would still be alive. Its a chain of events that has his decision to confront those causing a nuisance to him as an integral part of the chain.

    The Garda was doing his duty IMHO. Freewill brought the boy to 'cause nuisance'. Free will was his undoing. He didn't have to run.


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    #367
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    There is no question, based on the available facts that if the guard had stayed in his home the HE WOULD NOT have been assaulted and this boy would still be alive. Its a chain of events that has his decision to confront those causing a nuisance to him as an integral part of the chain.

    A chain of events that began with them acting the maggot. The garda was doing his job when assaulted. The chap who died, died of his own making.

    My sympathies lie with the garda, his family and the deceased's family in that order.

    As someone who lives in an area with severe anti social behaviour I have no sympathy for the chap himself. His actions led to his death callous as it may sound.


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    #368
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    TonyStark wrote: »
    The Garda was doing his duty IMHO. Freewill brought the boy to 'cause nuisance'. Free will was his undoing. He didn't have to run.

    so what was his plan then? What i read yesterday is that he chased after them on foot and reached them circa 500m from his estate. This implies they had already left when the confrontation occurred and therefore pose no threat.

    Media reports state that he wanted to ,"talk to them" which doesnt sound very realistic to me at all.


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    #369
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    There is no question, based on the available facts that if the guard had stayed in his home the HE WOULD NOT have been assaulted and this boy would still be alive. Its a chain of events that has his decision to confront those causing a nuisance to him as an integral part of the chain.

    You are joking! What place in the chain of events does the dead mans desicion to throw bottles and damage cars have?
    You do realise that you are saying that this gang of young people were entitled to go on their merry way damaging property and frightening people? Does that really not sound obscene to you?if my daughter is attacked by a man should she not fight back just in case he gets angry and decides to kill her?or worse still, according to you, he gets nervous and runs away in front of a car and gets killed? Are you crazy or just a windup?


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    #370
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    so what was his plan then? What i read yesterday is that he chased after them on foot and reached them circa 500m from his estate. This implies they had already left when the confrontation occurred and therefore pose no threat.

    So if a "suspect" leaves the scene then they are free from arrest or pursuit?


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    #371
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    so what was his plan then? What i read yesterday is that he chased after them on foot and reached them circa 500m from his estate. This implies they had already left when the confrontation occurred and therefore pose no threat.

    Media reports state that he wanted to ,"talk to them" which doesnt sound very realistic to me at all.

    Are you serious, you think a criminal should be allowed to leave after a crime, because they no longer pose a threat?
    BTW you have a strange definition of not posing a threat, because they hospitalized the man after he caught up with them.


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    #372
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Owryan wrote: »
    A chain of events that began with them acting the maggot. The garda was doing his job when assaulted. The chap who died, died of his own making.

    My sympathies lie with the garda, his family and the deceased's family in that order.

    As someone who lives in an area with severe anti social behaviour I have no sympathy for the chap himself. His actions led to his death callous as it may sound.

    No. Enough nonsense. Acting the maggot is making too much noise in a residential area at night. Throwing bottles and damaging cars is criminal behaviour. Stop making excuses.


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    #373
    TonyStark
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭TonyStark


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Absolutely on all accounts. Support punishing people appropriate to their crime but dont rejoice in their deaths, its perverse.

    Its what we dont know which would establish how brazen a crime the assault with the bottle was. They didnt break into his home and attack him, he confronted them. Much is being made of the right to self defense for the guard but we dont know if he was the aggressor after he chased them down, do we? Maybe these chaps were acting in self defense? We cant judge the facts based on stereotypes

    Self-defense: Group of drunken men attack single unarmed man with a bottles, smashing one over his head as they felt they were in immediate mortal danger.


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    #374
    allthedoyles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    All 3 have been released without charge


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    #375
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    I do, every time a boy racer or a drunk driver kills themselves and manages to not to kill an innocent civilian in the process, it does make me happy, because that's one less moron who could kill my family on the roads.

    It's weird, nearly like science fiction. I'd imagine maybe in 50 or a hundred years, this might be a completely acceptable and normal stance, right now though, it's shocking and heartless imo. Things are changing though, your point of view is becoming more common, and as I said, I get glimpses of it myself. When you know the victim it does change a few parameters though.


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    #376
    lighterman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭lighterman


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    No. Enough nonsense. Acting the maggot is making too much noise in a residential area at night. Throwing bottles and damaging cars is criminal behaviour. Stop making excuses.

    Just for clarification throwing bottles is not a criminal offence.


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    #377
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    No. Enough nonsense. Acting the maggot is making too much noise in a residential area at night. Throwing bottles and damaging cars is criminal behaviour. Stop making excuses.

    Oh i'm not making excuses for him. We don't know he was throwing bottles, only in the company of those that were. The fact that he ran doesn't mean he was guilty.


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    #378
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    lighterman wrote: »
    Just for clarification throwing bottles is not a criminal offence.

    Actually it can constitute a number of different offences from something minor like public order or littering to the more major offences like criminal damage to endangerment.


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    #379
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    TonyStark wrote: »
    Self-defense: Group of drunken men attack single unarmed man with a bottles, smashing one over his head as they felt they were in immediate mortal danger.

    You are not dealing in the facts. This is entirely speculation at this point. On what basis are you claiming the guard was the one attacked? Was the guard drunk? How do we know?


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    #380
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    It's weird, nearly like science fiction. I'd imagine maybe in 50 or a hundred years, this might be a completely acceptable and normal stance, right now though, it's shocking and heartless imo. Things are changing though, your point of view is becoming more common, and as I said, I get glimpses of it myself. When you know the victim it does change a few parameters though.

    If somebody dies doing something the chose to do, I don't think they're victims of anything. Boy racers and drink drivers know the risks, and make their choices, it's the people they kill that don't get a choice, they're the victims.


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    #381
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    lighterman wrote: »
    Just for clarification throwing bottles is not a criminal offence.

    Is it not lighter man. So you have no objections then if I come down tonight and throw some at you, your house, your car, and your family?


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    #382
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    Are you serious, you think a criminal should be allowed to leave after a crime, because they no longer pose a threat?
    BTW you have a strange definition of not posing a threat, because they hospitalized the man after he caught up with them.

    Key word being AFTER. Whatever real or imagined threat the guard supposedly felt under didnt exist when they were 500m from his home and moving away from it.


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    #383
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You are not dealing in the facts. This is entirely speculation at this point. On what basis are you claiming the guard was the one attacked? Was the guard drunk? How do we know?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/youth-died-after-fall-as-he-fled-bottle-attack-on-garda-30281401.html
    from the linked article :"gang assaulted a garda superintendent with a bottle"
    with the result that
    "he was struck over the head with a bottle and suffered a serious wound, which needed seven stitches at Waterford Regional Hospital".

    That suggests the garda was assaulted, no idea why you are asking if he was drunk.


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    #384
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Key word being AFTER. Whatever real or imagined threat the guard supposedly felt under didnt exist when they were 500m from his home and moving away from it.

    Who says he felt threatened?, it's his job to catch these people.


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    #385
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    If somebody dies doing something the chose to do, I don't think they're victims of anything. Boy racers and drink drivers know the risks, and make their choices, it's the people they kill that don't get a choice, they're the victims.

    I should have said the deceased.
    I didn't mean victim as in victim with implied prejudice.


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    #386
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    If somebody dies doing something the chose to do, I don't think they're victims of anything. Boy racers and drink drivers know the risks, and make their choices, it's the people they kill that don't get a choice, they're the victims.

    Every time I hear of another young life lost on the road I feel sad, but relieved if an "innocent" motorist or pedestrian hasn't also been killed or injured as a result of one persons drink/drug driving or speeding.
    It must compound the grief of the family and friends of a dead driver to think that their child caused others to suffer and die because of irresponsible driving.


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    #387
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Owryan wrote: »
    So if a "suspect" leaves the scene then they are free from arrest or pursuit?

    You think a group of 4 lads causing a row as they were on their way to wherever they were going on a thursday night, on foot and in a rural setting would be hard to track down after this guard had used the direct line to the police?


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    #388
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You think a group of 4 lads causing a row as they were on their way to wherever they were going on a thursday night, on foot and in a rural setting would be hard to track down after this guard had used the direct line to the police?

    He is a garda, perfectly entitled to chase them down, after ringing the police although why he would ring the UK i dont know:D


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    #389
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Owryan wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/youth-died-after-fall-as-he-fled-bottle-attack-on-garda-30281401.html
    from the linked article :"gang assaulted a garda superintendent with a bottle"
    with the result that
    "he was struck over the head with a bottle and suffered a serious wound, which needed seven stitches at Waterford Regional Hospital".

    That suggests the garda was assaulted, no idea why you are asking if he was drunk.

    Yes it does, but it gives no clue as to who was the aggressor.


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    #390
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Key word being AFTER. Whatever real or imagined threat the guard supposedly felt under didnt exist when they were 500m from his home and moving away from it.

    I genuinely hope it comes to your door and I say that reluctantly, then you will get a dose of reality and come into the real world, there are people especially the elderly all over the country imprisoned in their own home because of thugs like these, I can tell you the sound of breaking glass to these people is pretty frighting and it's a credit to the garda that he was prepared to stand up to them, it's people with attitudes like you that create a system that tolerates them!


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    #391
    littleblackDRS
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭littleblackDRS


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    If somebody dies doing something the chose to do, I don't think they're victims of anything. Boy racers and drink drivers know the risks, and make their choices, it's the people they kill that don't get a choice, they're the victims.

    I completely agree. I personally have lost friends in drink driving/boy racer scenarios, and yeah it's sad, young life lost and all that, but I still have no sympathy for them. I'm clearly not happy they're dead, but they did put themselves in the situation.


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