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What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?
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I see. If I shoot you claiming I need to set <where ever you are from free>, then I'm exactly the same as Michael Collins.
Because comparing two absolute acts and ignoring political, cultural, social and historical context is a logical and smart thing to do.0 -
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the political, social, cultural and historical context of both are pretty similar are they not?I see. If I shoot you claiming I need to set <where ever you are from free>, then I'm exactly the same as Michael Collins.
Because comparing two absolute acts and ignoring political, cultural, social and historical context is a logical and smart thing to do.0 -
^ That's what I taught.0
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the political, social, cultural and historical context of both are pretty similar are they not?
How exactly? I can't wait to hear this. Yet another person who fully buys into the "Sinn Fein traces its roots all the way back to the Irish War of Independence" schtick.
Ulster and particularly Belfast has been culturally heterogenous from the rest of Ireland for centuries. The political context has absolutely nothing in common, given one was a popular uprising by a homogenous population against an external ruler, and the other was internecine sectarian violence that was generally more about a brutal bloody civil war over religion and power than it was about "freedom" and equal rights (especially given that Catholics had long been a minority and any free plebiscite would have failed). And to compare the social settings of 1968-1990s northern Ireland with Ireland in 1919 would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
So yes, I eagerly await your explanation of how they were similar.
And do try make it better than stammering out "Catholics" "irish" "English" and smiling hopefully at me0 -
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DarkyHughes wrote: »^ That's what I taught.
Don't call macco a what, it's disrespectful if accurate.0 -
Utter gobbledegook. Why should Catholics have needed a voting majority for equal rights?and the other was internecine sectarian violence that was generally more about a brutal bloody civil war over religion and power than it was about "freedom" and equal rights (especially given that Catholics had long been a minority and any free plebiscite would have failed).
Homogenous... heterogenous... did you just hear those words for the first time and decide to drop them into your next online post randomly because they are entirely incongruous here.0 -
How exactly? I can't wait to hear this. Yet another person who fully buys into the "Sinn Fein traces its roots all the way back to the Irish War of Independence" schtick.
Before that actually.Ulster and particularly Belfast has been culturally heterogenous from the rest of Ireland for centuries.
Um, no. A section of the community has been but to say all Ulster, hell, even all Belfast was, is or has been betrays a complete ignorance of the province and the city. Irish was spoken as the main language in some rural parts of ulster up until the the 1950s while today Belfast has one of the most vibrant Irish speaking communities in the country. In terms of gaelic sport, music, storytelling and history Ulster has, in many ways, led the way. Just last year the biggest EVER fleadh was held in Derry.
I see a lot of posters on here do this; (even Boards does it itself with its spiteful "nordie" box in the politics section) attempt to make the north "the other," something else outside of real Ireland. I dont know if that's just ignorance or an attempt by some FF/FG types to absolve themselves of some sort of collective guilt over the legacy of abandonment in the north, whatever the cause, it's patently untrue.
That's not to say Ulster and Belfast arent without their own local quirks. Much like the rest of Ireland they have their own local secondary identity but those differences are no more profound than the differences between connaught and leinster or Cork and Dublin.The political context has absolutely nothing in common, given one was a popular uprising by a homogenous population against an external ruler, and the other was internecine sectarian violence that was generally more about a brutal bloody civil war over religion and power than it was about "freedom" and equal rights (especially given that Catholics had long been a minority and any free plebiscite would have failed).
Total drivel. Firstly, you're failing to acknowledge that rather than being a separate issue the conflict in the north is directly related to the WOI. Frankly, it's the unfinished business of that struggle but I dont want to get too bogged into the whole partition thing because then it becomes the same argument people have had on Boards a million times. The facts are the north was set up specifically to give the British (the external ruler you mentioned) a comfortable grip on the part of ireland they still held. Enough fenians to oppress but not so many that they could become a problem (bet they feel stupid now). The point is that from the very beginning the north has been an illegitimate entity so to try and look at it separately from the rest of Ireland, particularly when we're talking about the legacy of the WOI is moronic.
Youre also betraying a shocking ignorance of the WOI. Using your (wrong) parameters it could just as easily be called an "internecine sectarian civil war." The RIC were, after all, fellow Irish men of the IRA. And if you think the war was without its sectarian elements you really have your blinkers on. The Brits, as they have always done, used local turncoats, planters and a privileged minority to do the work of oppression for them. They did it in the WOI in 1919 and in 1968.And to compare the social settings of 1968-1990s northern Ireland with Ireland in 1919 would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
How?
1919 - CNR community under the boot of a foreign occupier. CNR community revolt.
1968 - CNR community under the boot of a foreign occupier. CNR community revolt.
Deprivation, poverty, discrimination. They were just as bad in 69 as 1919. The slums of Belfast and Derry were as horrific as anything Dublin produced in the earlier part of the century while rural Ireland had hardly developed in any meaningful way. You want proof, head up north and i'll show you the house my father grew up in in south armagh.
In fact the only real difference is that the IRA of '68/69 arguably had even more legitimate reasons for going to war.
In 1919 the IRA went on the offensive from the off. The provos were initially a purely defensive group, protecting a community actively under attack.So yes, I eagerly await your explanation of how they were similar.
I eagerly await to hear you tell us how the "good old" IRA drove the Brits off with hurls and rebel songs while those nasty provos went round shooting them.And do try make it better than stammering out "Catholics" "irish" "English" and smiling hopefully at me
I assure you, no one is smiling at you.0 -
how is the civil war and the conflict in the north similar? Are you seriously asking me that?
Dont tell me - you are one of those people who think the civil war IRA were saints and the provos were terrorists. If that's the case then Im not even going to bother. the conflict in the north was much more than a war over religion. the fact you think that says quite a bit on its own. I'd rather debate this with people who actually know what was going on, not those with rose tinted glasses. Plus why the **** would I be 'smiling hopefully' at you?How exactly? I can't wait to hear this. Yet another person who fully buys into the "Sinn Fein traces its roots all the way back to the Irish War of Independence" schtick.
Ulster and particularly Belfast has been culturally heterogenous from the rest of Ireland for centuries. The political context has absolutely nothing in common, given one was a popular uprising by a homogenous population against an external ruler, and the other was internecine sectarian violence that was generally more about a brutal bloody civil war over religion and power than it was about "freedom" and equal rights (especially given that Catholics had long been a minority and any free plebiscite would have failed). And to compare the social settings of 1968-1990s northern Ireland with Ireland in 1919 would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
So yes, I eagerly await your explanation of how they were similar.
And do try make it better than stammering out "Catholics" "irish" "English" and smiling hopefully at me0 -
If 'macco' is in reference to me, then please be so kind as to tell me just what are you talking about? How is it 'disrespectful if accurate'? I want to give you a chance before I click the report button as thats obviously an attack on the poster and not the post.Don't call macco a what, it's disrespectful if accurate.0
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Crooked Jack wrote: »Before that actually.
Um, no. A section of the community has been but to say all Ulster, hell, even all Belfast was, is or has been betrays a complete ignorance of the province and the city. Irish was spoken as the main language in some rural parts of ulster up until the the 1950s while today Belfast has one of the most vibrant Irish speaking communities in the country. In terms of gaelic sport, music, storytelling and history Ulster has, in many ways, led the way. Just last year the biggest EVER fleadh was held in Derry.
I see a lot of posters on here do this; (even Boards does it itself with its spiteful "nordie" box in the politics section) attempt to make the north "the other," something else outside of real Ireland. I dont know if that's just ignorance or an attempt by some FF/FG types to absolve themselves of some sort of collective guilt over the legacy of abandonment in the north, whatever the cause, it's patently untrue.
That's not to say Ulster and Belfast arent without their own local quirks. Much like the rest of Ireland they have their own local secondary identity but those differences are no more profound than the differences between connaught and leinster or Cork and Dublin.
Total drivel. Firstly, you're failing to acknowledge that rather than being a separate issue the conflict in the north is directly related to the WOI. Frankly, it's the unfinished business of that struggle but I dont want to get too bogged into the whole partition thing because then it becomes the same argument people have had on Boards a million times. The facts are the north was set up specifically to give the British (the external ruler you mentioned) a comfortable grip on the part of ireland they still held. Enough fenians to oppress but not so many that they could become a problem (bet they feel stupid now). The point is that from the very beginning the north has been an illegitimate entity so to try and look at it separately from the rest of Ireland, particularly when we're talking about the legacy of the WOI is moronic.
Youre also betraying a shocking ignorance of the WOI. Using your (wrong) parameters it could just as easily be called an "internecine sectarian civil war." The RIC were, after all, fellow Irish men of the IRA. And if you think the war was without its sectarian elements you really have your blinkers on. The Brits, as they have always done, used local turncoats, planters and a privileged minority to do the work of oppression for them. They did it in the WOI in 1919 and in 1968.
How?
1919 - CNR community under the boot of a foreign occupier. CNR community revolt.
1968 - CNR community under the boot of a foreign occupier. CNR community revolt.
Deprivation, poverty, discrimination. They were just as bad in 69 as 1919. The slums of Belfast and Derry were as horrific as anything Dublin produced in the earlier part of the century while rural Ireland had hardly developed in any meaningful way. You want proof, head up north and i'll show you the house my father grew up in in south armagh.
In fact the only real difference is that the IRA of '68/69 arguably had even more legitimate reasons for going to war.
In 1919 the IRA went on the offensive from the off. The provos were initially a purely defensive group, protecting a community actively under attack.
I eagerly await to hear you tell us how the "good old" IRA drove the Brits off with hurls and rebel songs while those nasty provos went round shooting them.
I assure you, no one is smiling at you.
This is actually very accurate more so than a lot of people will probably remember.
The British Army & IRA in either January or February 1970 came to a deal that the IRA would protect the nationalists behind the barricades & the British would patrol the rest of the streets.
This arrangement worked very well until the Battle of St.Matthews in June of the same year when a loyalist (who else would be causing trouble) mob tried to do what they did to Bombay St. a year earlier only this time the PIRA was in a position to defend the nationalist areas. In the ensuing gun fight that lasted 12 hours 1 IRA man was killed & another wounded (Billy McKee) & 5 UPV/UVF men were killed and a few wounded. The reason the British Army did not intervene was because of the deal the IRA & British Army had come to earlier in the year.
The Unionist government was furious 5 Protestants were killed even tho they were gunmen. This lead to the Falls Curfew were for the first time since 1921 the IRA engaged the British Army in a battle. The British shot dead 5 Catholic civilians during the Curfew. And although only 85 - 90 IRA Volunteers took part in the battle over 330 people the vast majority of which were civilians were arrested. That changed everything forever. It was one of the major events that gained support & a flood of recruits for the IRA, the others being 1971 internment & Bloody Sunday.0 -
DarkyHughes wrote: »This is actually very accurate more so than a lot of people will probably remember.
The British Army & IRA in either January or February 1970 came to a deal that the IRA would protect the nationalists behind the barricades & the British would patrol the rest of the streets.
This arrangement worked very well until the Battle of St.Matthews in June of the same year when a loyalist (who else would be causing trouble) mob tried to do what they did to Bombay St. a year earlier only this time the PIRA was in a position to defend the nationalist areas. In the ensuing gun fight that lasted 12 hours 1 IRA man was killed & another wounded (Billy McKee) & 5 UPV/UVF men were killed and a few wounded. The reason the British Army did not intervene was because of the deal the IRA & British Army had come to earlier in the year.
The Unionist government was furious 5 Protestants were killed even tho they were gunmen. This lead to the Falls Curfew were for the first time since 1921 the IRA engaged the British Army in a battle. The British shot dead 5 Catholic civilians during the Curfew. And although only 85 - 90 IRA Volunteers took part in the battle over 330 people the vast majority of which were civilians were arrested. That changed everything forever. It was one of the major events that gained support & a flood of recruits for the IRA, the others being 1971 internment & Bloody Sunday.
I see Tragedy has gone pretty quiet all of a sudden. Tragic.0 -
Crooked Jack wrote: »I see Tragedy has gone pretty quiet all of a sudden. Tragic.
True people don't like having facts throwing at them.
But a bit more back on topic I think Adams is one of the most underrated Irish people at least compared with people like Collins, Dev or Carson. Adams managed to take the gun out of Irish politics which has plagued politics in Ireland for centuries & he managed to do it not his or his followers terms either which is a huge achievement & one I don't think he's given enough credit for.0 -
DarkyHughes wrote: »True people don't like having facts throwing at them.
But a bit more back on topic I think Adams is one of the most underrated Irish people at least compared with people like Collins, Dev or Carson. Adams managed to take the gun out of Irish politics which has plagued politics in Ireland for centuries & he managed to do it not his or his followers terms either which is a huge achievement & one I don't think he's given enough credit for.
He won't be getting credit anytime soon. The same people in the Dail who wanted the gun out of Irish politics are now scared of the threat to their seats and the power they hold in Ireland now that the gun has been taken out of Irish politcs as they demanded (rightly IMHO) all along.0 -
He won't be getting credit anytime soon. The same people in the Dail who wanted the gun out of Irish politics are now scared of the threat to their seats and the power they hold in Ireland now that the gun has been taken out of Irish politcs as they demanded (rightly IMHO) all along.
Really along? Didn't Fianna Fail TD's the first time they went into the Dail have guns in their pockets.
Sean Lemmas killed god knows how many people . We've killers in the government right up to the highest places ever since this state was created.0 -
DarkyHughes wrote: »Really along? Didn't Fianna Fail TD's the first time they went into the Dail have guns in their pockets.
Sean Lemmas killed god knows how many people . We've killers in the government right up to the highest places ever since this state was created.
You will get no agrument from me on that score. I meant simply that it was right to want to get he gun out of Irish politics.0 -
DarkyHughes wrote: »True people don't like having facts throwing at them.
But a bit more back on topic I think Adams is one of the most underrated Irish people at least compared with people like Collins, Dev or Carson. Adams managed to take the gun out of Irish politics which has plagued politics in Ireland for centuries & he managed to do it not his or his followers terms either which is a huge achievement & one I don't think he's given enough credit for.
True facts? According to who. The people of Newtownards road tell a very different story of ira snipers and the murder of innocent protestants that day0 -
True facts? According to who. The people of Newtownards road tell a very different story of ira snipers and the murder of innocent protestants that day
Would those be the same ones telling stories about nuns with cocks and parents eating their children in Ardoyne etc...
Cop yourself on. Every single historian of merit acknowledges that loyalists/unionists were the aggressors at The Battle of St Matthews and the provos were acting completely defensively, even going so far as to give warnings and fire over their heads.
What's your evidence? Bull**** stories from people who love playing the victim even when they're the aggressor, completely incapable of acknowledging any wrongdoing on their part, and one bull**** article from renowned anti-republican O'Doherty in the ever reliable Belfast Telegraph0 -
Crooked Jack wrote: »Would those be the same ones telling stories about nuns with cocks and parents eating their children in Ardoyne etc...
Cop yourself on. Every single historian of merit acknowledges that loyalists/unionists were the aggressors at The Battle of St Matthews and the provos were acting completely defensively, even going so far as to give warnings and fire over their heads.
What's your evidence? Bull**** stories from people who love playing the victim even when they're the aggressor, completely incapable of acknowledging any wrongdoing on their part, and one bull**** article from renowned anti-republican O'Doherty in the ever reliable Belfast Telegraph
The only historians you would consider with merit are the ones that agree with your narrative. As for O'Doherty, he's never struck me as a particular fan of loyalism either, so I really cant see him writing stuff to support thier cause for the sake of it. Moreover he is an eye witness to such things as the so called battle of the bogside, which would give a certain credence to his version of events. Likewise I have spoken to people who where on the Newtownards roads that day, admittedly they are getting on abit now, and while its anecdotal, its enough for me, they have no reason to lie to me0 -
The only historians you would consider with merit are the ones that agree with your narrative. As for O'Doherty, he's never struck me as a particular fan of loyalism either, so I really cant see him writing stuff to support thier cause for the sake of it. Moreover he is an eye witness to such things as the so called battle of the bogside, which would give a certain credence to his version of events. Likewise I have spoken to people who where on the Newtownards roads that day, admittedly they are getting on abit now, and while its anecdotal, its enough for me, they have no reason to lie to me
Ok, so, historians arent to be trusted but the word of a handful of people who are getting on a bit is gospel?
You're a walking parody junder.
And very few of the historians I was referring to, Toby Harnden and Richard English to name just two, would hardly agree with "my narrative," unless of course by "my narrative" you mean "the truth."0 -
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Crooked Jack wrote: »Ok, so, historians arent to be trusted but the word of a handful of people who are getting on a bit is gospel?
You're a walking parody junder.
And very few of the historians I was referring to, Toby Harnden and Richard English to name just two, would hardly agree with "my narrative," unless of course by "my narrative" you mean "the truth."
Wow, you know two historians, well done, sure they are very trustworthy, dont believe I said they weren't. However, you only agree with them because they agree with your narrative, any other historian or journalist for that matter who disagrees with you, and you cry foul. O'Doherty being a case in point, a journalist from a working class Catholic / nationalist background and your almost frothing at the mouth.0 -
Wow, you know two historians, well done, sure they are very trustworthy, dont believe I said they weren't. However, you only agree with them because they agree with your narrative, any other historian or journalist for that matter who disagrees with you, and you cry foul. O'Doherty being a case in point, a journalist from a working class Catholic / nationalist background and your almost frothing at the mouth.
As you can clearly see, I named those two as examples. Here's a challenge. Go to your local library, pick out three history books at random, hell, pick out five, and tell me what they say about the origin of the troubles and the Battle of St. Matthew's.
O'Doherty is not a case in point. I mentioned him because he is the only person top have peddled this version of events. never mind all the history books with years of research and interviews in them, he came out with his makey uppy version of what he remembers from 40 years previously in a half page article for the Belfast Telegraph and you've leapt all over it.
I could care less what his religion is or where he's from, he has made a crusade out of attacking republicanism and SF in particualr over the last few years.
Let me know how your trip to the library goes and if you can come up with some evidence that isnt some senile auld bat saying "themmuns started it" then by all means get back to me.0 -
Crooked Jack wrote: »As you can clearly see, I named those two as examples. Here's a challenge. Go to your local library, pick out three history books at random, hell, pick out five, and tell me what they say about the origin of the troubles and the Battle of St. Matthew's.
O'Doherty is not a case in point. I mentioned him because he is the only person top have peddled this version of events. never mind all the history books with years of research and interviews in them, he came out with his makey uppy version of what he remembers from 40 years previously in a half page article for the Belfast Telegraph and you've leapt all over it.
I could care less what his religion is or where he's from, he has made a crusade out of attacking republicanism and SF in particualr over the last few years.
Let me know how your trip to the library goes and if you can come up with some evidence that isnt some senile auld bat saying "themmuns started it" then by all means get back to me.
Dont need to Go to the library, I have plenty of books in my own collection. Heres a challenge for you, try to be a little more objective and less insulting, using terms like 'senile old bat' shows a very juvenile attitude. Here's a book for you to read, to try and broaden your very narrow horizons
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0745333095/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/276-4055216-67473180 -
An alternative view of the so called battle of Saint matthew's
De-Bunking the Myth of the Battle of St. Matthews.
Saturday 27th and Sunday 28th of June 1970 will live long in the memory of those who were witness to the horrific events that unfolded that weekend. Of the two people and many others who were injured by the indiscriminate gunfire their families pain has been exacerbated in the intervening years as they have had to endure the ignominy of the perpetuated untruth that somehow this incident was some sort of glorious battle honour by the Short Strand IRA, and that their sectarian murderous attacks were in actual fact heroic defending of a ghetto under siege. So much so that an erroneous moniker of “The Battle of Saint Matthews” was bestowed upon it. However all right thinking citizens are well aware of the FACTS surrounding that day’s events and can quite easily debunk this theoretical falsehood.
Almost one year after the onset of “The Troubles” the Republican movement and the Belfast IRA in particular were in disarray. In July and August of 1969 they, as a grouping had done little—in the eyes of the Catholic population in working class areas—to defend those communities from the “Loyalist hordes “. The acronym now read I Ran Away. Behind the scenes an idealistic shift was also taking place—a shift that would eventually –and inevitably lead to fractions within the movement, culminating in feuds and counter feuds. The new hardliners—although many were seasoned veterans of the organisation–were making their presence felt. Individuals like Francis Card—Billy McKee—Joe Cahill-Seamus Twomey and Leo Martin. McKee, as the Belfast Brigade commander knew that in order to make a statement and win back the affections of the disillusioned Catholic inhabitants he needed a victory—something that would announce the arrival of the new Provisional movement.
The annual Whiterock parade took place on the last Saturday in June each year and until then had moved from the West Belfast Orange Hall on the Shankill to the Whiterock Orange Hall on the Springfield Road and back again….without incident. June 1970 was to become a watershed in that particular event. There were orchestrated attacks on the parade at various intervals along the route and heavy fighting ensued leaving many bandsmen and marchers injured. News of the attacks quickly spread throughout Belfast and rumours abounded in the East of the City that in fact there had been a couple of fatalities. Luckily the rumours proved to be unfounded but it would only be a matter of hours before events would take a turn for the worse.
In the late afternoon on the 27th June Gertrude Star was one of those bands returning from the Whiterock Parade along the Newtownards Road. On passing Seaforde Street the band and a small group of followers were attacked—viciously and without warning –by a large number of Nationalist residents. This was the precursor for the more premeditated and brutal affront later in the evening. Almost a softening up. A trap had been laid by the IRA to entice the Protestants of the Lower Newtownards Road to respond to the provocation—to draw them in—and walk them straight into a deadly snare. From tea time until pub closing time—in those days 10:00 pm—an uneasy peace ensued—tensions were electric—crowds of locals gathered at various points along the main Newtownards Road and in the side streets off it. What they didn’t know at this time was that in the streets off Seaforde Street—Arran street in particular—Billy McKee had formed the Belfast Brigade of the IRA up and was openly parading his men complete with an array of weapons. Fortuitously—or coincidentally for the Nationalists in the Short Strand Belfast was awash with many IRA men this particular day. They had travelled from far and wide to bury the recently deceased Hughie McAteer—an IRA ex Chief of Staff and some sort of Republican hero. It is likely that McKee and his cohorts seized upon this opportunity to launch their fiendish attack on the innocent population of the Lower Newtownards Road.
Around the time that Gertude Star was returning from the Whiterock Parade along the Newtownards Road, all hell was breaking loose on the other side of town. Republicans—again as part of a premeditated plan—had attacked the main parade with gunfire leaving 4 Protestant men dead or dying from their wounds. Danny Loughins, Sandy Gould and Billy Kincaid died as a result of gunfire coming from Ardoyne while Tommy Reid would subsequently pass away a week later from injuries he received when he was struck by a brick or piece of metal at Mayo Street on the Springfield Road.
As darkness fell and tensions rose the spark that ignited the flames occurred. On a pre arranged signal a youth emerged from the shadows of Seaforde Street waving a tricolour. As expected many of the Protestant crowd surged towards the provocateur. Immediately a lone IRA man stepped forward—crouched down on one knee into a firing position and unleashed a volley of shots from a pistol in the direction of the crowd. Mayhem and panic ensued. After the initial salvo of shots a barrage of heavy gunfire followed forcing the Protestants to dive for cover in the little side streets. The reaction was one of sheer panic. Sure there had been incidents before this and indeed you only had to go back a year to recall the first days of the Troubles the previous August when sectarian strife was on a high. But to be targeted totally indiscriminately and in a deliberate fashion by gunfire—much of it from high calibre weapons was a new departure for the beleaguered residents.
Unlike their Catholic counterparts the locals on the Newtownards Road had not been preparing for such an attack and when it came it left them vulnerable and exposed with very little means of defence. Hastily some of those who were present issued an appeal to provide arms to protect the streets. In a short space of time a small stockpile was amassed. This amounted to a paltry number of weapons—A Steyr rifle—an old Martini Henry—a Lee Enfield rifle and a couple of hand guns—some dating back to the previous century—but in the face of the fusillade now being directed from the supposed sanctuary of St. Matthews Roman Catholic Church it amounted to little by way of defence. The gunfire was intense. It was almost impossible for those pinned down to move. The Chapel—particularly the high vantage points—offered a commanding views of the facing streets—Frazer—Roxburgh—Wolff—Josephine—and the gunmen fired at will. Any counter attack from the loyalist side paled in comparison but there were many brave souls that night who stood up to the enormous task. Only for their returning fire—with a pathetically low number of rounds—certainly saved further casualties and dare say it, fatalities.
The onslaught continued into the early hours of the morning. Republicans claimed the IRA fired over 800 rounds that night but in the Loyalist estimation that figure falls far short of the actual number. At some point during the fray the Army returned fire but didn’t become engaged in a gun battle as many claim. The IRA was allowed to continue their assault until first light was breaking through. By then two innocent local men lay dead and a total of twenty eight lay wounded—men—women and children. All of those killed or wounded can be described as innocent because they were going about their normal business—walking home from a night out—visiting friends and relatives to make sure they were safe—or simply standing outside their own terraced houses.
Jimmy McCurrie was a family man—45 years old with four children and a wife who was pregnant. He lived at Ardilaun Street—a small terraced street that cut across Frazer Street. He had been out that afternoon for a few drinks with his usual crowd of friends. Scotch Row pub was one of his favourite watering holes and he spent some time there before going home for his dinner. He went back to Scotch Row that night before heading up to the Buffs Club on the Albertbridge Road to once again meet his friends. At closing time the group decided to return to Jimmy’s house and as they usually did cut down Beechfield Street as a short cut. The streets were unusually deserted as the friends made their way home. At the corner of Beechfield Street and Bryson Street a volley of shots rang out…from Kilmood Street–directed at the group. Jimmy McCurrie fell to the ground—mortally wounded. A post mortem would reveal that Jimmy had been continually targeted after the initial shot had felled him. Jimmy was carried to a house in Thistle Street in the hope of administering first aid—but to no avail.
Bobby Neill pictured at a sisters wedding–far left in photo…
Bobby Neill was a local man—he was a single man who lived at this time in Central Street. He had worked in various places during his adult life and at this time was employed in the Irish Bonding. On this particular Saturday Bobby, who was 43 years old had spent much of the afternoon with his friends frequenting local bars, including McMahon’s—a Catholic owned bar in which both Protestants and Catholics drank. As people did in those days—Ginger—as he was called—went home around tea time. By the time the worst of the gunfire was taking place Bobby was lying down sleeping. The noise awoke him and he walked to the top of the street to see what was going on. Moments later Bobby was shot—a single round through the back—fired, it later transpired from the Chapel grounds—a gaping hole in his front. He died shortly afterwards on admittance to Dundonald Hospital.
That night, the Belfast IRA achieved what they set out and carefully planned to do. They had gained their “spectacular” and set about weaving a web of deceit and lies that would bolster their claims over the next forty years that these were the actions of a community under siege. Succinctly—they invented the battle of St. Matthews. There was no battle. What there was-was a wanton and premeditated attack on a community whose crime that day was to be Protestants celebrating their culture—just as they always had in the preceding years. To keep this myth alive they even invented stories around the fatality that occurred within the “haven” of St. Matthews that fateful night. Henry McIlhone was shot dead—of that there is no doubt. He can hardly be described as an innocent victim as he was reputed to be the gunman who came out of Seaforde Street earlier to fire the first shots and was part of the squad who attacked Protestants from the Church Grounds. First stories indicated that he was killed by Loyalist Marauders—His name was bestowed upon a plaque of IRA men in a roll of remembrance. It was subsequently removed at the behest of the dead man’s family who claimed he had no affiliation with the IRA. In more recent times evidence has emerged that suggests he was indeed shot dead accidentally during the offensive by a cohort within the Chapel grounds—his assailant may well have been Dennis Donaldson—who went on to have a long and “distinguished” IRA career before he was outed as a long time informer and later shot dead at a remote location in Donegal.
In the intervening years since those tragic days of June 1970 we have become very used to the re writing of history by the Republican section of the community. There are many reasons for this—to keep the notion alive that they were justified in what they were doing—to paint us as the baddies during the conflict. This nefarious tactic can only succeed if we as a community buy into it and accept what they say. However if we challenge them at every turn and can unmask them as the evil machine they were we will, in turn be writing the truthful versions of events. To do otherwise would sully the memories of those innocent men who died that night.
Billy Joe0 -
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Would junder care to provide any links or information on where he got his fairytale from?0
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Thought I had included the link, you seem to not understand the definition of the term 'objective' so to help you out
objective
əbˈdʒɛktɪv/Submit
adjective
1.
(of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
"historians try to be objective and impartial"
synonyms: impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, non-partisan, disinterested, non-discriminatory, neutral, uninvolved, even-handed, equitable, fair, fair-minded, just, open-minded, dispassionate, detached, impersonal, unemotional, clinical
"an interviewer must try to be objective"
Heres the link for
http://www.longkeshinsideout.co.uk/?p=1993&wprptest2=2
Im sure it will be of interest to the more mature and objective individual. You may want to avoid it Crooked Jack as i think you will burst a blood vessel, as it gives things from a loyalist perspective0 -
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Heres the link for
http://www.longkeshinsideout.co.uk/?p=1993&wprptest2=2
Im sure it will be of interest to the more mature and objective individual. You may want to avoid it Crooked Jack as i think you will burst a blood vessel, as it gives things from a loyalist perspective
"Long Kesh Inside Out is a forum for ex-political prisoners of the Ulster Volunteer Force and Red Hand Commando. "
yes, a very unbiased site :rolleyes:0 -
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"Long Kesh Inside Out is a forum for ex-political prisoners of the Ulster Volunteer Force and Red Hand Commando. "
yes, a very unbiased site :rolleyes:
Think I did point that out already, although the contributers actually come from all works of loyalism, but I forgot only republican paramilitarys are allowed an opinion. Still as it happens Danny morrisan has wrote a book review on that site0
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