What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

alastair · 30-10-2014 3:49pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Oh yeh, she is a victim and I can't question what she says. I forgot! :rolleyes:

You can certainly chose not to believe her. What you can't do is ascribe your own fabricated intent on her behalf, and pretend it's anything other than your imagination articulated.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have read her statement on this, but I haven't heard her questioned on it...link?

http://www.newstalk.com/EXCLUSIVE:-Mairia-Cahill-tells-Newstalk-

Happyman42 · 30-10-2014 3:54pm

alastair wrote: »

You can certainly chose not to believe her. What you can't do is ascribe your own fabricated intent on her behalf, and pretend it's anything other than your imagination articulated.

:D Says the man that spent yesterday 'interpreting' what Gerry Adams said.

:D You have a hard neck, I'll give you that.

http://www.newstalk.com/EXCLUSIVE:-Mairia-Cahill-tells-Newstalk-[/QUOTE]
Cheers for actually supplying a link...I'll have a listen.

alastair · 30-10-2014 3:58pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

:D Says the man that spent yesterday 'interpreting' what Gerry Adams said. :D You have a hard neck, I'll give you that.

Oh dear. As I pointed out - there was no interpretation required. The logic of the quotes should have been self-evident. It's your contention that 'interpretation' was called for.

Can people please stop with the straw man arguments? It's just boring.

Happyman42 · 30-10-2014 4:07pm

alastair wrote: »

Oh dear. As I pointed out - there was no interpretation required. The logic of the quotes should have been self-evident. It's your contention that 'interpretation' was called for.

Yes, you contended that Gerry Adams conceded 'she was raped by an IRA man' and never produced a quote where he conceded that point.
But you did imaginatively 'interpret' a statement he made, accepting that 'allegations had been made' alright.

alastair · 30-10-2014 4:24pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, you contended that Gerry Adams conceded 'she was raped by an IRA man' and never produced a quote where he conceded that point.

Except I did.

Happyman42 wrote: »

But you did imaginatively 'interpret' a statement he made, accepting that 'allegations had been made' alright.

No. I poster Adam's own words - stating an IRA man was involved in the alleged rape (ahead of the kangaroo court this is), and his subsequent admission that she had suffered abuse. I really don't need to keep repeating this, do I?

Happyman42 · 30-10-2014 4:32pm

alastair wrote: »

Except I did.

No. I poster Adam's own words - stating an IRA man was involved in the alleged rape (ahead of the kangaroo court this is), and his subsequent admission that she had suffered abuse. I really don't need to keep repeating this, do I?

Yes, yes Alastair you did what even the Sindo couldn't do, you proved that Gerry Adams conceded 'that she was raped by an IRA man' even though the alleged IRA man and rapist is denying both membership and rape.
Effectively you have proved that Gerry has ratted out a member of the RA!

:D:D

Or maybe, just maybe, you imaginatively interpreted 'I am aware that allegations have been made about abuse by the IRA'...to mean all the above.

alastair · 30-10-2014 4:40pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, yes Alastair you did what even the Sindo couldn't do, you proved that Gerry Adams conceded 'that she was raped by an IRA man' even though the alleged IRA man and rapist is denying both membership and rape.
Effectively you have proved that Gerry has ratted out a member of the RA!
:D:D

Once again (sigh), he was very careful not to implicate any individual in her rape. He 'ratted out' nobody.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe, you imaginatively interpreted 'I am aware that allegations have been made about abuse by the IRA'...to mean all the above.

That's not a quote from Adams. He was clear that the IRA were involved, before he called in Joe Cahill.

Happyman42 · 30-10-2014 4:56pm

alastair wrote: »

Once again (sigh), he was very careful not to implicate any individual in her rape. He 'ratted out' nobody.

That's not a quote from Adams. He was clear that the IRA were involved, before he called in Joe Cahill.

Here is the original quote you used from the Sindo:

Gerry Adams: “Absolutely. And I met her at the request of a, of a family member who was concerned about her and as I’ve said, on quite a number occasions, when I learned subsequently, and remember, Mairia Cahill was an adult at this time, and I was well intended in meeting with her. I met her to help her. Anybody else she’s named from Sinn Fein who I’ve spoken to has assured me that they tried to help her and were well intended in dealing with her.

“And she’s acknowledged that her uncle Joe asked her to go to the RUC and it was at my request that she did that because once, once it became clear to me, subsequently, that there was this entire situation of alleged abuse, of the IRA, of all of this, I went to Joe and said: ‘Joe that needs to go to the RUC’.”

And here is how you butchered it and added in some other unlinked stuff to come up with you assertion 'that Gerry Adams conceded she was raped by an IRA man'

Martin Morris was an IRA man. Gerry Adams said "once it became clear to me, subsequently, that there was this entire situation of alleged abuse, of the IRA, of all of this, I went to Joe". Gerry Adams also said "I am very conscious that a young woman is at the centre of this controversy so let me be very, very clear, abuse is wrong". He also said that he was "mindful of the trauma she had suffered". He went on to say, in the context of Cahill's treatment, that "IRA actions did fail victims of abuse". So given that we are all clear what the nature of Cahill's abuse was (rape)', let's not pretend that Adams hasn't accepted the reality of her abuse. That Martin McGuinness manages to be a bit more forthright is welcome, but Gerry's own words make clear that she was both abused, and that there was IRA involvement (ie: Martin Morris).

alastair · 30-10-2014 5:01pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Here is the original quote you used from the Sindo:

Indeed Gerry's own words - stating IRA involvement.

Happyman42 wrote: »

And here is how you butchered it and added in some other unlinked stuff to come up with you assertion 'that Gerry Adams conceded she was raped by an IRA man'

No butchery - just highlighting the relevant passage. They're all Gerry's own words. If he's clear at the outset that it's an IRA man accused of the rape, and he's clear at the outset that the victim was, indeed, abused, the logic of his quotes requires no interpreation.

Happyman42 · 30-10-2014 5:10pm

alastair wrote: »

Indeed Gerry's own words - stating IRA involvement.

Where does he confirm or concede IRA involvement in that passage?

that there was this entire situation of alleged abuse, of the IRA, of all of this,

That bit is just an acknowledgement that there was an allegation, it is not, no matter what way you read it, an admission or concession.

, the logic of his quotes requires no interpreation.

So why did you have to butcher them to get them to mean what you wanted?

alastair · 30-10-2014 5:16pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Where does he confirm or concede IRA involvement in that passage?

Strangely enough - where he mentions the IRA by name.

Happyman42 wrote: »

That bit is just an acknowledgement that there was an allegation, it is not, no matter what way you read it, an admission or concession.

The only allegation mentioned, is the rape. Not the IRA involvement. Given that this was before the SF/IRA kangaroo court investigation/interrogation, it's not surprising Gerry would have been referencing it as an alleged rape.

Happyman42 wrote: »

TSo why did you have to butcher them to get them to mean what you wanted?

I didn't butcher them at all; as I already said.

Happyman42 · 30-10-2014 5:26pm

alastair wrote: »

Strangely enough - where he mentions the IRA by name.

Off course, silly me, this is actually an admission that the IRA done it. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Gerry Adams said "once it became clear to me, subsequently, that there was this entire situation of alleged abuse, of the IRA, of all of this, I went to Joe".

alastair · 30-10-2014 5:34pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Off course, silly me, this is actually an admission that the IRA done it. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

It is when you subsequently concede the victim was abused. Which he did.

Happyman42 · 30-10-2014 5:45pm

alastair wrote: »

It is when you subsequently concede the victim was abused. Which he did.

And the person alleged is denying membership of the IRA.

As I said, your contention that Adams conceded 'she was raped by an IRA man' is the most bizzare and absurd thing you have posted on this site.
He said no such thing and that is why you cannot find or link to a quote where he says it.

We have argued all this before...I'm out. No point when you are allowed to butcher quotes and not provide sources for the ones you make up.

alastair · 30-10-2014 5:49pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

And the person alleged is denying membership of the IRA.

Bully for him.

Happyman42 wrote: »

As I said, your contention that Adams conceded 'she was raped by an IRA man' is the most bizzare and absurd thing you have posted on this site.

And yet, it's supported by the word of a certain Gerry Adams.

Happyman42 wrote: »

He said no such thing and that is why you cannot find or link to a quote where he says it.

Other than posting the quotes that demonstrate exactly that, you mean?

Happyman42 wrote: »

We have argued all this before...I'm out. No point when you are allowed to butcher quotes and not provide sources for the ones you make up.

I butchered nothing, and the quotes are in the public domain.

Dan_Solo · 01-11-2014 5:35pm

alastair wrote: »

You can certainly chose not to believe her. What you can't do is ascribe your own fabricated intent on her behalf, and pretend it's anything other than your imagination articulated.

You mean like when we are told what she was expecting from her republican colleagues she discussed the rape with, SF and Gerry Adams? That kind of fabricated intent on her behalf?

alastair · 01-11-2014 10:13pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You mean like when we are told what she was expecting from her republican colleagues she discussed the rape with, SF and Gerry Adams? That kind of fabricated intent on her behalf?

Understandable English would be nice.

Dan_Solo · 01-11-2014 10:49pm

alastair wrote: »

Understandable English would be nice.

Don't let us stop you whenever you feel like it.
See those opinion polls on the news? SF the most popular party in Ireland. These smear campaigns are really hitting home with the Irish people eh? ;-)

alastair · 01-11-2014 11:20pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Don't let us stop you whenever you feel like it.
See those opinion polls on the news? SF the most popular party in Ireland. These smear campaigns are really hitting home with the Irish people eh? ;-)

Let's see how well that translates come election time. Mairia Cahill's campaign isn't going away.

Dan_Solo · 01-11-2014 11:26pm

alastair wrote: »

Let's see how well that translates come election time. Mairia Cahill's campaign isn't going away.

As far as the electorate are concerned it's gone.

alastair · 02-11-2014 12:39am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As far as the electorate are concerned it's gone.

We'll see. I suspect that in an actual election, SF's record on this is not going to serve them well.

Eamondomc · 02-11-2014 11:09am

alastair wrote: »

We'll see. I suspect that in an actual election, SF's record on this is not going to serve them well.

It might hinge on the party leadership at election time. Will Gerry still be the leader then? I think if he is gone then SF have a great chance at least to be in government.

Phoebas · 02-11-2014 12:09pm

Eamondomc wrote: »

It might hinge on the party leadership at election time. Will Gerry still be the leader then? I think if he is gone then SF have a great chance at least to be in government.

Its very doubtful that he will go unless there is some dramatic turnaround in SFs fortunes - which isn't likely.
SF in government requires a willing coalition partner - equally unlikely.

I predict a period of instability with hung parliaments and multiple general elections post 2016.

Eamondomc · 02-11-2014 12:27pm

Phoebas wrote: »

Its very doubtful that he will go unless there is some dramatic turnaround in SFs fortunes - which isn't likely.
SF in government requires a willing coalition partner - equally unlikely.

I predict a period of instability with hung parliaments and multiple general elections post 2016.

You may be right but dont under estimate the greed for power of the other parties who would join together or include SF for that power.

Happyman42 · 02-11-2014 3:51pm

If Boards.ie/politics shows anything it is that there are plenty of people here talking out of their derrieres on the subject of Irish 'opinion'.
I was talking to an elected SF guy last night, (pro and close to the leadership and he was with somebdiy from SF who wasn't so pro the party and there was no gunfire or blood!

) and he said they are very happy to thread water even for up to 10 years to build a strong party that will be fit for government.
He was very surprised that even with all the negativity that they had managed to do so well in this poll, but he wasn't fooling himself that it wouldn't have an affect, as it was designed to do by Enda and Michael.

alastair · 02-11-2014 4:18pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

If Boards.ie/politics shows anything it is that there are plenty of people here talking out of their derrieres on the subject of Irish 'opinion'.
I was talking to an elected SF guy last night, (pro and close to the leadership and he was with somebdiy from SF who wasn't so pro the party and there was no gunfire or blood! ) and he said they are very happy to thread water even for up to 10 years to build a strong party that will be fit for government.
He was very surprised that even with all the negativity that they had managed to do so well in this poll, but he wasn't fooling himself that it wouldn't have an affect, as it was designed to do by Enda and Michael.

So, the public reaction to Mairia Cahill's case has been acknowledged to have damaged SF, by a SF representative, but that's nothing to do with 'Irish opinion'? Is it Lithuanian opinion that this rep figured had been changed by Cahill's revelations then?

uck51js9zml2yt · 02-11-2014 4:27pm

I'm not sure why anyone here is revelling in the sf poll. Didn't they discredit it before it came out saying it couldn't be trusted and that it was akin to Fox and pravda.

Sf don't believe the results that they are popular.

Happyman42 · 02-11-2014 7:27pm

alastair wrote: »

So, the public reaction to Mairia Cahill's case has been acknowledged to have damaged SF, by a SF representative, but that's nothing to do with 'Irish opinion'? Is it Lithuanian opinion that this rep figured had been changed by Cahill's revelations then?

It will slightly damage the leader's personal rating but the party itself is doing well. The opinion on here predicting the party being demolished is looking a bit silly and as pointed out earlier 'hysterical' and completely out of touch with reality.

alastair · 02-11-2014 8:20pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

It will slightly damage the leader's personal rating but the party itself is doing well. The opinion on here predicting the party being demolished is looking a bit silly and as pointed out earlier 'hysterical' and completely out of touch with reality.

I'd love to see who reckoned the party was going to be 'demolished' by anything. Because that sounds like something you made up, along with the claim of 'hysteria'. :rolleyes:

DarkyHughes · 18-11-2014 12:38pm

Interesting article on Eamon Dunphy defending Gerry Adams & Sinn Fein

What ever ever your personal thoughts of Dunphy people should know while the the Provo war was on he consistently denounced the IRA the nearly every week when other journalists in the South turned their heads away.

This State was founded on violence

Says Dunphy, although guess much States are, the United States being a great example.

“I think the Jean McConville case – which is forty two years old - is an atrocity of the worst possible kind: to take a mother of ten and murder her and not tell people where the body was. It was a terrible atrocity. It happened forty two years ago,”

Dunphy said

He also said

“Forty two years before that, Michael Collins and other revered Irish figures were slaughtering people. So I think there comes a put where we have to realise that this state was founded on violence.All the heroes and icons were involved in violence. Sean Lemass, for example, was a gun man, in the popular parlance.”
“Ryan Tubridy’s grandfather was a gun man and a killer and he went on to be very respected – including being Director General or Chairman of the RTE Authority.”

So nobody in this country is in a position to claim that Gerry Adams did something that the founding fathers of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour party didn’t do themselves,” Dunphy says.
“And what’s different about Adams and McGuinness and the Sinn Fein leadership is that they ended the IRA. They took the gun out of Irish politics, they took it out of Irish politics not on their terms; there is no United Ireland. It was an enormous political achievement and I recognise it as such. Others don’t. “
“I am a big admirer of Eoghan Harris,” he says later. “We were fellow revisionists when the going was tough in the North. I think the plus on Sinn Féin’s side is the quality of the people that represent them as TDs. People like Mary Lou and Pearse Doherty.”
Asked about whether Irish people have a fear of a hidden agenda with Sinn Fein, Dunphy says: “I think there is resistance.
"I think there is a plateau where they’ll get to, where maybe they’re reaching, with middle class people, and people of a conservative disposition. They’ll say: ‘No. I just don’t trust them. And the memories of the Troubles are vivid still.’"
"But there is a new generation. It is exactly twenty years since they laid down their guns. They had a bomb in 1996 but then they stopped. The Good Friday Agreement is very old now.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/eamon-dunphy-defends-gerry-adams-over-jean-mcconville-murder-by-ira-30339635.html

I agree with a lot of that the hypocrisy of the Free State MPS is amazing sometimes.

The Free State Army killed twice as many people in 10 months than the Provos did in 30 years, it actually in that 10 month period killed about the same number of people killed in the whole of the Northern War of Liberation. The Old IRA killed about as many people during the Tan War & counter-revolution as the Provos did.

What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

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