Teachers behave like children at their conferences

Mardy Bum

TimeToShine wrote: »

Are you kidding? Anyone could phrase their job like that to make it seem practically impossible. For what it's worth, I gave grinds for 2 years in HL maths after the LC so I know what it's like to teach, or as you refer to it perform an "hour long presentation". Don't get me wrong, the job is clearly challenging, but the fact that teachers still complain when they have it just fine is what irks me. And for what it's worth, I do believe if a teacher hated maths at LC level they will either directly or indirectly convey a dislike for maths which will translate over to the kids. But that's just my opinion as opposed to any facts. The simple matter of the fact is they work 5 hours a day. It could be the most difficult job in the world at that time but it's still 5 hours and I gladly welcome anyone who wants to dispute that.

TBH, I find it ludicrous that teachers have the audacity to whinge when nurses are getting screwed over left right and center for doing an infinitely more difficult and less rewarding job. Call me bigoted and all that but all I see from the primary/secondary school teachers I have had and/or know is a cushy lifestyle that's hard to match if you want to live in Ireland.

Firstly, your brief spell giving grinds is only a small aspect of teaching - exam prep. Teaching involves many other areas including classroom management, pastoral care, extra curriculars, ICT, assessment for and of learning etc.
If you read my post again and honestly answer the questions you will have a small idea of what goes into teaching. You simply don't walk into a class, especially a class full of five year olds and start teaching it takes prep. This preparation happens in the hours after school. Teachers work much longer than five hours.

The real issue in education is the ever decreasing budget which greatly affects teaching and learning for everyone especially those with special needs but the population rather direct their ire at teachers.

Donkey Oaty

Valetta wrote: »

You have just highly insulted all students who take ordinary level maths for the leaving.

To be fair, none of them are likely to see it as they won't know how to use a computer.

I Heart Internet

Valetta wrote: »

You have just highly insulted all students who take ordinary level maths for the leaving.

For shame.

Opting for Ordinary Level in a subject is precisely the same as saying "I have no real understanding of this subject." I opted for Ordinary Level German becasue I had no real understanding of the German Language.

People have to stop believing the myth that Higher Level maths is only for people destined to be brain surgeons and rocket-scientists. It is a fairly fundamental level of maths.

Inspector Coptoor

I don't think LC Hons Maths should be a pre requisite for any teacher, including Maths teachers at 2nd level, given that they will have to have a superior qualification at third level to be registered as a Maths teacher,

I think it's very important that students have an understanding of Maths & are comfortable with the material.

This is something that should be addressed during the 4 years of the B.Ed from a pedagogical stand point.

Just because a theorem is known & a proof can be written, does not mean the person can explain it.

The route into teaching should change, it shouldn't all hinge on a points race, interviews and even a HPat type exam for teaching should come in,

If we really want to value our teachers, we need to stop bashing them at every corner.

I'm a secondary teacher myself who did OL Maths and got an A1, I didn't need HL Maths to get into my B.Sc course, so why would I have bothered? Especially when there were no bonus points at the time (2001) or indeed a dumbed down course - Project Maths.

Ruairi Quinn is being very smart here, he's stepping on a few land mines to make a load of noise and select from the real issues affecting the profession, namely
- Bigger class sizes
- Less SNAs
- Less support for kids with SEN
- 3 tiered wage system for teachers which is highly unfair
- more and more paper work as we blindly follow a failed UK model of education as we try to emulate the Finnish model without actually putting any money into it
- Increased supervision & substitution hours and removal of €1800 a year for this

xxmeabhxx

I think the people who are arguing for Higher level maths are forgetting just how simplistic and easy it is at primary school level. We're literally talking about addition, subtraction, long multiplication/division and very simple fractions, decimals, angles and very simple geometry (area and perimeter of a rectangle etc.) Also, it takes a lot more effort to do higher maths than higher irish or english. A good primary teacher is one that knows the concepts they're teaching thoroughly and has excellent communication skills enabling them to teach it in a way children will understand. You don't need to know higher level trigonometry and differentiation. Even though it's easy to pass ordinary level maths, it still would ensure you understand primary school concepts

No Pants

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes!

I had to look it up on the NCCA website, but it now appears that there are actually three examination levels for leaving cert maths; Foundation, Ordinary and Higher. From what you're saying, the first two are not fit for purpose. Have you made your concerns known to the Department of Education or the Minister?

oak5548

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Added a few words.

And? Not everyone is fantastic at honours maths, or maths in general.
That shouldnt prevent them from doing something that doesnt actually require, an honours level of maths.

Donkey Oaty

Just throwing this thought out there: there's nothing stopping anyone from taking Higher Level maths now, regardless of what they did in their Leaving Cert.

Donkey Oaty

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If we really want to value our teachers, we need to stop bashing them at every corner.

Or another way of putting it: if we really want to have teachers that deserve to be valued, we should set extremely high standards for them.

AnonoBoy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People have to stop believing the myth that Higher Level maths is only for people destined to be brain surgeons and rocket-scientists. It is a fairly fundamental level of maths.

Nah. You're talking sh*te there mate.

I did Ordinary Level Maths in the Leaving and I could easily teach a Junior Cert Honours Maths class in the morning no hassle. When I learn stuff I remember it.

And to say someone can't teach a 12 year old maths because they only did Ordinary Level at Leaving Cert is just b*llocks.

The minister is throwing this out there because they want to lessen the numbers of people going into teaching I'd say. It's nothing to do with competency but they can't say "we're cutting back on teacher numbers folks so we want to put future teachers off doing it by putting this unnecessary requirement in place!"

Mardy Bum

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I would argue it's the teachers who can show ignorance in thinking that working your ass off outside of traditional working hours is something unique to them. There are few jobs on offer these days that don't involve a ton of extra work and most certainly don't pay what a teacher gets paid, even starting off.

I was simply trying to explain what teaching like for someone who has never taught. I didn't state either way whether this was working your ass off or not.

No Pants

oak5548 wrote: »

And? Not everyone is fantastic at honours maths, or maths in general.
That shouldnt prevent them from doing something that doesnt actually require, an honours level of maths.

No way. I want my woodwork teacher to be able to define Sine, Cos and Tan.

AnonoBoy

No Pants wrote: »

No way. I want my woodwork teacher to be able to define Sine, Cos and Tan.

Yeah, cause knowing what they are is honours maths level only!

Red Nissan

Good point on the Maths. I agree.

I'm very offended that the teachers are now blaming STUDENTS for just guessing what was going to come up and then just study that only.

In my leaving Cert back in 1972 the teacher decided in 5th class what was going to come up for us two years later, he was spot on.

I actually complained about this at the time, only one teacher turned around and started teaching the whole syllabus. History ~ been fascinated ever since.

I was the first of the 'free' education too, THAT was the excuse used back then for this practice.

Teacher, don't blame the students.

No Pants

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Yeah, cause knowing what they are is honours maths level only!

No way. I want my woodwork teacher to be able to solve trigonometric equations such as Sin nθ = 0 and Cos nθ = ½ giving all solutions.

Better?

Red Nissan

AnonoBoy wrote: »

The minister is throwing this out there because they want to lessen the numbers of people going into teaching I'd say.

Possibly to attract a balance, if gender quotas are forced through, teaching will find it harder than the Dáil to comply.

Also probably keeping an eye on flexibility with future education changes in mind.

painauchocolat

Just a quick comment on the need for HL Irish for primary teaching: all qualified Irish primary school teachers are qualified to teach in both English language schools and gaelscoileanna. Realistically, you'd need to have achieved a C or higher at HL to have the level of fluency to teach the senior classes as Gaeilge.

Kermit.de.frog

Listening to the ASTI conference on the radio now. It's ear opening stuff. They come across as ignorant, childish people with a wonderful sense of entitlement and just an all round atrocious attitude.

The students come secondary. It's all them, them, them.

Birroc

I do not agree with the HL Maths argument but I do think Quinn is an excellent minister. I truly believe he wants to improve education in Ireland. And the sooner they get rid of religious teaching in school the better. It should be done by a) parents b) priests.

ninebeanrows

What a pathetic response from the audience, I would be embarassed to be in that crowd.

Do they seriously think people will respect their opinion with behaviour like that?

I Heart Internet

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Opting for Ordinary Level in a subject is precisely the same as saying "I have no real understanding of this subject." I opted for Ordinary Level German becasue I had no real understanding of the German Language.

People have to stop believing the myth that Higher Level maths is only for people destined to be brain surgeons and rocket-scientists. It is a fairly fundamental level of maths.

Its complete nonsense suggesting that HL maths is in anyway required to teach the very basic maths required at primary school level.

All it does is needlessly exclude people from becoming primary school teachers who are not able to do HL maths or would need to neglect other subjects in order to pass it.

There is huge gulf between HL maths at leaving cert and primary level maths. Ordinary level maths at leaving cert is more than enough for someone to teach it to primary school children.

Cantremember

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Listening to the ASTI conference on the radio now. It's ear opening stuff. They come across as ignorant, childish people with a wonderful sense of entitlement and just an all round atrocious attitude.

The students come secondary. It's all them, them, them.

You're assuming that Quinn is putting students first rather than making cutbacks, outsourcing, transferring wealth to the already wealthy, introducing schemes rejected in England Wales who have experienced them, and expecting the sheeple to be sheeple.

Woodville56

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Listening to the ASTI conference on the radio now. It's ear opening stuff. They come across as ignorant, childish people with a wonderful sense of entitlement and just an all round atrocious attitude.

The students come secondary. It's all them, them, them.

Quinn doesn't listen to teachers - why should they afford him any greater courtesy and freedom to deliver , from what I could hear on the radio, a patronising load of waffle, probably written for him by a spin doctor in his Department and paid for by the taxpayer. It would be more respectful to teachers had he stayed away !

fta93

This is nothing but a cynical ploy to reduce applicants. Also, distracts from bigger issue of class sizes.

While there may be some point in raising standards, he misses the boat completely. Zero point implementing this while the Leaving Cert Maths system is still absolutely diabolical. Unless you're in a school swimming with money, if you do Higher Maths, you're going to be in a class that also has Ordinary students. The teacher then ends up teaching Ordinary Maths for the whole of 5th year and majority of 6th year and if you're doing Higher, basically you've to learn yourself. That's if your lucky enough to have a decent Maths teacher.
Fair enough, I get the motives behind a want for HL Maths (not that its needed), but you really can't expect people to be achieving honours at HL while the system is like this.

I did honours, came through it handy enough, but wasted some amount of time on it. My friends that have, say, an A1 at OL, some of them have a much better understanding of Maths then me, who learned to predict what questions would come up based on trends, and then to regurgitate theorems that we took down from the board one time. I don't think its too fair, that I can be a primary teacher based on this, while they can't, even if they have a better understanding?

Cantremember

Weathercheck wrote: »

What a pathetic response from the audience, I would be embarassed to be in that crowd.

Do they seriously think people will respect their opinion with behaviour like that?

You should se what the turf cutters did to Kenny. They got their way.

whiteandlight

Quinn is a pain in the neck. If he wanted to implement this change to entry requirements there was waaaaaay better ways of phrasing it. Now he's throwing his toys out of the pram because teachers are like "what the hell is honours maths to do with gender imbalance??!"

Slightly OT but to do with his other comments: If I have to hear one more time about his criticism of the church I'm going to throw something at the TV. I'm not catholic but he's been dancing around the issue. If he really wanted to change religion in primary school he could have done it long ago. All schools catholic or not in this country have to follow the department mandated curriculum if they want their teachers paid for by the state. All he has to do is:
1. Reduce the amount of time permitted to be spent on religious instruction
2. Implement a wider religious syllabus (as per the new JC religion course).

This could have been done ages ago. Instead he blabs on and on and on about lack of engagement, blaming the church etc when really he doesn't want to bite the bullet (as above) because there's too many catholics voters int he country!

No Pants

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The students come secondary. It's all them, them, them.

ASTI is the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland. Who else do you expect them to be focusing upon?

Woodville56

Weathercheck wrote: »

What a pathetic response from the audience, I would be embarassed to be in that crowd.

Do they seriously think people will respect their opinion with behaviour like that?

The Minister doesn't respect teachers opinions thats for sure - self opinionated, patronising waffle is his output at these conferences so far ! Oh , and his usual trade mark lash at the RC church . Of course all this takes the attention from the real issues in education - the hard questions the Minister won't deal with like Class sizes, infrastructure, cuts to SNA's etc... These are the real issues facing teachers not whether their peers have Hons maths or whether religious education becomes an optional extra !
And I'm not a teacher so no axe to grind there , but must admit I'm totally cynical of anything emanating from Kenny, Gilmore & Co - what a disappointing lot !! Smoke & mirrors specialists all of them !

Carlos Orange

oak5548 wrote: »

So whats the general AH consensus?
I personally think its madness to have higher level maths requirement for primary school teachers.

For secondary school teachers, possibly yeah. But having a higher level requirement for primary would prevent so many people from becoming teachers, it would be downright unfair.

Maybe we could get rid of the requirement for Irish when we add maths. That would balance things up nicely.

Louthdrog

Im a maths teacher (secondary) in the uk. Im consistently observed as outstanding and my results certainly speak for themselves. I can confidently say I am a far better teacher than most of the teachers in Ireland.


Now here's the twist.........5 years ago when I sat my leaving cert, I did Ordinary level maths.

I had walked to an A in the junior cert and was comfortable without putting much work in in fifth year honors maths. However I made a decision in the summer between fifth and sixth year that I would be better off dropping to ordinary level. I had a lot of outside commitments and as another poster put it, I played to my strengths. I was far better off putting all my energy into subjects like business and Biology where it was quite easy to get an A over maths where I would have had to work for it.

I was home for the easter holidays the past two weeks. My sister has her leaving cert in six weeks and I couldnt believe how unprepared she was for the exam. Her teacher has failed to cover a number of chapters and the only homework she gave them over a two week break was four questions or something stupid like that. From what iv seen she is an awful teacher. I bet she did honors maths though.

Now who would you rather teach your kids?

Ordinary level me or higher level incompetent "teacher"?