Teachers behave like children at their conferences

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 3:36pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'm not. I'm specifically stating that these are the type of people we don't want teaching! Not commenting on those that are teaching.

You don't want people who dedicate two years of their teenage lives to get the points they need for the training course of their choice, for their vocation, because some of them don't want to stress themselves out with Honours Maths on top of the race for points?

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 3:37pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Have you ever managed a team?

You are possibly talking about a head teacher.

Have you ever managed a team which had very little enthusiasm or initiative?

You are definitely talking about a head teacher.

Pompette · 22-04-2014 3:40pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So they were afraid of hard work?

Are these the type of people we want teaching our kids?

A lot of people use that tactic... and that's long before they start into their chosen profession. People want to maximise the points they can get versus the amount of work they have to put in. Not much point killing yourself trying to do well in HL maths and letting other subjects suffer (subjects you could do well in with less work).
That is not being afraid of hard work... is called working to your strengths.

Mardy Bum · 22-04-2014 3:42pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

You are possibly talking about a head teacher.
You are definitely talking about a head teacher.

No I am not. I am trying to give an example of what managing and teaching a room full of children is like to someone who has no experience of it. The class is a team and each person has to be given direction, managed and assessed.

TimeToShine · 22-04-2014 3:44pm

Daisies wrote: »

Ah here, it always comes back to the same "sure they only work half the time". As a previous poster said, if their working conditions are so good why didn't you go into teaching?

I did a STEM degree which in my view gave me better opportunities. It's also very difficult to find a job in teaching. I don't contest the fact that it's a tough profession to break into, but once you do it's smooth sailing with a job safety guarantee that I doubt any other profession could match.

An File wrote: »

That's bullshit as well.

Care to elaborate?

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Have you ever had to give a presentation in work?
Have you ever had to give one for 5-6 hours?
How much preparation would you put into organising your presentation?
Would the specific audience to whom you are delivering you presentation change the manner in which you present your information?
Have you ever managed a team?
Have you ever managed a team of 30 people?
How was that experience? Have you ever managed a team which had very little enthusiasm or initiative?
How was that experience?

Now imagine all that with children and adolescents.

The amount of ignorance is hard to swallow.

Are you kidding? Anyone could phrase their job like that to make it seem practically impossible. For what it's worth, I gave grinds for 2 years in HL maths after the LC so I know what it's like to teach, or as you refer to it perform an "hour long presentation". Don't get me wrong, the job is clearly challenging, but the fact that teachers still complain when they have it just fine is what irks me. And for what it's worth, I do believe if a teacher hated maths at LC level they will either directly or indirectly convey a dislike for maths which will translate over to the kids. But that's just my opinion as opposed to any facts. The simple matter of the fact is they work 5 hours a day. It could be the most difficult job in the world at that time but it's still 5 hours and I gladly welcome anyone who wants to dispute that.

TBH, I find it ludicrous that teachers have the audacity to whinge when nurses are getting screwed over left right and center for doing an infinitely more difficult and less rewarding job. Call me bigoted and all that but all I see from the primary/secondary school teachers I have had and/or know is a cushy lifestyle that's hard to match if you want to live in Ireland.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:44pm

Cantremember wrote: »

Of course if we think that only the best is good enough for our little one then we will be flying in the super duper teacher from far far away. The best things are always far away.

That was genuinely funny (not a slight...I genuinely laughed).

But on the point you made - Higher Level maths is open to all...its not from far, far away.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 3:46pm

An File wrote: »

You don't want people who dedicate two years of their teenage lives to get the points they need for the training course of their choice, for their vocation, because some of them don't want to stress themselves out with Honours Maths on top of the race for points?

I want the best, most ambitous, most gifted teachers we can get. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Cantremember · 22-04-2014 3:47pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That was genuinely funny (not a slight...I genuinely laughed).

But on the point you made - Higher Level maths is open to all...its not from far, far away.

That's not the point I made.

22-04-2014 3:47pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Have you ever had to give a presentation in work?
Have you ever had to give one for 5-6 hours?
How much preparation would you put into organising your presentation?
Would the specific audience to whom you are delivering you presentation change the manner in which you present your information?
Have you ever managed a team?
Have you ever managed a team of 30 people?
How was that experience? Have you ever managed a team which had very little enthusiasm or initiative?
How was that experience?

Now imagine all that with children and adolescents.

The amount of ignorance is hard to swallow.

I would argue it's the teachers who can show ignorance in thinking that working your ass off outside of traditional working hours is something unique to them. There are few jobs on offer these days that don't involve a ton of extra work and most certainly don't pay what a teacher gets paid, even starting off.

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 3:48pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

No I am not. I am trying to give an example of what managing and teaching a room full of children is like to someone who has no experience of it. The class is a team and each person has to be given direction, managed and assessed.

Okay, so you are saying you are earning your keep, it's a difficult job that requires certain skills, etc., and I think most people accept that.

But you have also implied that it is more difficult in Ireland than most places. Would you care to give sources for the stats you outlined in post #131? Because I'm not convinced that they are all entirely accurate.

Or to put it another way: "Give reasons for your answer."

Wicklowrider · 22-04-2014 3:49pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I missed the congratulatory thread for that but then again I wasn't expecting it.

Who gets congratulated for doing what they are paid to do?

The smug, self entitled and precious tone of your post is a good example of some teacher's perception of reality. Must be truly difficult for the talented and hard working members of your profession to deal with that whining on a daily basis.

Pompette · 22-04-2014 3:50pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

Are you kidding? Anyone could phrase their job like that to make it seem practically impossible. For what it's worth, I gave grinds for 2 years in HL maths after the LC so I know what it's like to teach, or as you refer to it perform an "hour long presentation". Don't get me wrong, the job is clearly challenging, but the fact that teachers still complain when they have it just fine is what irks me. And for what it's worth, I do believe if a teacher hated maths at LC level they will either directly or indirectly convey a dislike for maths which will translate over to the kids. But that's just my opinion as opposed to any facts. The simple matter of the fact is they work 5 hours a day. It could be the most difficult job in the world at that time but it's still 5 hours and I gladly welcome anyone who wants to dispute that.

Ha giving grinds does NOT mean you know how to teach. You do realise that teachers teach 30 kids at a time, and let me tell you that is VERY different from teaching one student. It's laughable what you're suggesting.

I openly dispute this 'they work 5 hours a day'. It's absolute rubbish and only shows your complette ignorance of the profession. And at secondary level it's even worse.

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 3:52pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I want the best, most ambitous, most gifted teachers we can get. I don't see what's wrong with that.

That's not what you said the first time around.

No Pants · 22-04-2014 3:52pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So you would be happy with a primary school teacher teaching english to pupils with just a primary school pupil's understanding of the subject?

You mean a teacher that hasn't gone to secondary school at all? I don't think anyone is even suggesting that.

Woodville56 · 22-04-2014 3:52pm

Spring Onion wrote: »

Quinn was absolutely right about one thing - we need to take religion out of schools

Perhaps put it another way - take the schools out of religion - let Mr Quinn establish, fund and manage the multi denominational school model he so yearns for . His constant whinging about and sniping at the Catholjc Church belies a deeper secularist/ agnostic agenda which he would wish to impose in this country. He begrudgingly accepts the role of the Catholic Church ( for good and sometimes not so good ) in Irish education and until he is in the position to provide the multi denominational school system he espouses he needs to acknowledge which side his bread is buttered on - he can't have it both ways , use the Catholic schools system for the bits he likes and demand it abandon it's ethos for bits he doesn't agree with !
I have no religious affiliation and no liking for organised religion but all the same I have to acknowledge that I received a decent education in the Catholjc school system, both at primary and secondary level. I accept that education in modern Ireland must accommodate students of all and /or no faith but to expect the Catholic education system to abandon their ethos for the sake of multi cultural inclusion is taking the soft option on the Minister's part . Besides , I doubt very much if he has the democratic or public mandate to have the teaching of religion in schools with Catholic patronage relegated to an optional extra , however much he would like it !

whisky_galore · 22-04-2014 3:53pm

Shure if the sun came out, couldn't they take the conference outside?

Cantremember · 22-04-2014 3:55pm

Woodville56 wrote: »

Perhaps put it another way - take the schools out of religion - let Mr Quinn establish, fund and manage the multi denominational school model he so yearns for . His constant whinging about and sniping at the Catholjc Church belies a deeper secularist/ agnostic agenda which he would wish to impose in this country. He begrudgingly accepts the role of the Catholic Church ( for good and sometimes not so good ) in Irish education and until he is in the position to provide the multi denominational school system he espouses he needs to acknowledge which side his bread is buttered on - he can't have it both ways , use the Catholic schools system for the bits he likes and demand it abandon it's ethos for bits he doesn't agree with !
I have no religious affiliation and no liking for organised religion but all the same I have to acknowledge that I received a decent education in the Catholjc school system, both at primary and secondary level. I accept that education in modern Ireland must accommodate students of all and /or no faith but to expect the Catholic education system to abandon their ethos for the sake of multi cultural inclusion is taking the soft option on the Minister's part . Besides , I doubt very much if he has the democratic or public mandate to have the teaching of religion in schools with Catholic patronage relegated to an optional extra , however much he would like it !

Multi denominational simply continues the same flawed model. Non denominational is the answer. Teach religion from 3 to 3.30 you get the building free with light and heat and you supply your priest vicar mullah rabbi whatever.

Mardy Bum · 22-04-2014 3:56pm

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Who gets congratulated for doing what they are paid to do?

The smug, self entitled and precious tone of your post is a good example of some teacher's perception of reality. Must be truly difficult for the talented and hard working members of your profession to deal with that whining on a daily basis.

Hold on a second. Whinging? Have you seen the title of the OP? I wasn't whinging I was pointing out the realities of teaching. Did you even read the post? It was about the decrease in the education budget. The point at the end was made in jest but I didn't think I would have to actually explicitly say so.

22-04-2014 3:58pm

I don't thing people are getting it, you do not NEED higher level maths to be a primary school no more that you need higher lever Irish or English, however those that do higher level maths then to be the best of the best academically and those are the candidates he want to attract to teaching it as simple as that.

If that is a good idea or not is another question.

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 3:59pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Did you even read the post?

Hang on, you are not in the classroom now.

Dark sarcasm will not be tolerated in AH.

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 4:03pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Dark sarcasm will not be tolerated in AH.

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

Pompette · 22-04-2014 4:04pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I don't thing people are getting it, you do not NEED higher level maths to be a primary school no more that you need higher lever Irish or English, however those that do higher level maths then to be the best of the best academically and those are the candidates he want to attract to teaching it as simple as that.

If that is a good idea or not is another question.

Well with the way working conditions and education in general are going he certainly won't be attracting the best and brightest to the teaching profession....

No Pants · 22-04-2014 4:05pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I would argue it's the teachers who can show ignorance in thinking that working your ass off outside of traditional working hours is something unique to them. There are few jobs on offer these days that don't involve a ton of extra work and most certainly don't pay what a teacher gets paid, even starting off.

There are plenty of jobs with a fixed start and end time. Very few of them come with the responsibility that a teacher takes on, especially at the beginning of their career. In Loco Parentis anyone?

oak5548 · 22-04-2014 4:06pm

So whats the general AH consensus?
I personally think its madness to have higher level maths requirement for primary school teachers.

For secondary school teachers, possibly yeah. But having a higher level requirement for primary would prevent so many people from becoming teachers, it would be downright unfair.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 4:08pm

No Pants wrote: »

You mean a teacher that hasn't gone to secondary school at all? I don't think anyone is even suggesting that.

They are effectively tolerating this position for maths. Allowing people who have no real understanding of the subject (couldn't pass higher level leaving cert) in secondary school, to teach the subject to children.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 4:09pm

oak5548 wrote: »

So whats the general AH consensus?
I personally think its madness to have higher level maths requirement for primary school teachers.

For secondary school teachers, possibly yeah. But having a higher level requirement for primary would prevent so many people from becoming teachers, it would be downright unfair.......to people who don't understand maths

Added a few words.

No Pants · 22-04-2014 4:11pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Allowing people who have no real understanding of the subject (couldn't pass higher level leaving cert) in secondary school, to teach the subject to children.

So anyone who has sat and passed an ordinary level maths paper, no matter their score, has no real understanding of the subject? Now, I did leave school in 1992, but have standards really fallen that far?

Valetta · 22-04-2014 4:12pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

They are effectively tolerating this position for maths. Allowing people who have no real understanding of the subject (couldn't pass higher level leaving cert) in secondary school, to teach the subject to children.

You have just highly insulted all students who take ordinary level maths for the leaving.

For shame.

131spanner · 22-04-2014 4:12pm

I don't think HL Maths should be made a requirement for Primary teaching. When you're teaching 5 or 6 year old kids, you have to be as much a mother to them as a teacher. It'd also put opportunities out of reach for people who are great at dealing with young people and who would make great teachers, but not able for HL maths.

That said, I can't see why HL Irish is a requirement but Maths isn't.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 4:12pm

No Pants wrote: »

So anyone who has sat and passed an ordinary level maths paper, no matter their score, has no real understanding of the subject? Now, I did leave school in 1992, but have standards really fallen that far?

Yes!

Mardy Bum · 22-04-2014 4:14pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

Are you kidding? Anyone could phrase their job like that to make it seem practically impossible. For what it's worth, I gave grinds for 2 years in HL maths after the LC so I know what it's like to teach, or as you refer to it perform an "hour long presentation". Don't get me wrong, the job is clearly challenging, but the fact that teachers still complain when they have it just fine is what irks me. And for what it's worth, I do believe if a teacher hated maths at LC level they will either directly or indirectly convey a dislike for maths which will translate over to the kids. But that's just my opinion as opposed to any facts. The simple matter of the fact is they work 5 hours a day. It could be the most difficult job in the world at that time but it's still 5 hours and I gladly welcome anyone who wants to dispute that.

TBH, I find it ludicrous that teachers have the audacity to whinge when nurses are getting screwed over left right and center for doing an infinitely more difficult and less rewarding job. Call me bigoted and all that but all I see from the primary/secondary school teachers I have had and/or know is a cushy lifestyle that's hard to match if you want to live in Ireland.

Firstly, your brief spell giving grinds is only a small aspect of teaching - exam prep. Teaching involves many other areas including classroom management, pastoral care, extra curriculars, ICT, assessment for and of learning etc.
If you read my post again and honestly answer the questions you will have a small idea of what goes into teaching. You simply don't walk into a class, especially a class full of five year olds and start teaching it takes prep. This preparation happens in the hours after school. Teachers work much longer than five hours.

The real issue in education is the ever decreasing budget which greatly affects teaching and learning for everyone especially those with special needs but the population rather direct their ire at teachers.

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 4:14pm

Valetta wrote: »

You have just highly insulted all students who take ordinary level maths for the leaving.

To be fair, none of them are likely to see it as they won't know how to use a computer.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 4:16pm

Valetta wrote: »

You have just highly insulted all students who take ordinary level maths for the leaving.

For shame.

Opting for Ordinary Level in a subject is precisely the same as saying "I have no real understanding of this subject." I opted for Ordinary Level German becasue I had no real understanding of the German Language.

People have to stop believing the myth that Higher Level maths is only for people destined to be brain surgeons and rocket-scientists. It is a fairly fundamental level of maths.

Inspector Coptoor · 22-04-2014 4:18pm

I don't think LC Hons Maths should be a pre requisite for any teacher, including Maths teachers at 2nd level, given that they will have to have a superior qualification at third level to be registered as a Maths teacher,

I think it's very important that students have an understanding of Maths & are comfortable with the material.

This is something that should be addressed during the 4 years of the B.Ed from a pedagogical stand point.

Just because a theorem is known & a proof can be written, does not mean the person can explain it.

The route into teaching should change, it shouldn't all hinge on a points race, interviews and even a HPat type exam for teaching should come in,

If we really want to value our teachers, we need to stop bashing them at every corner.

I'm a secondary teacher myself who did OL Maths and got an A1, I didn't need HL Maths to get into my B.Sc course, so why would I have bothered? Especially when there were no bonus points at the time (2001) or indeed a dumbed down course - Project Maths.

Ruairi Quinn is being very smart here, he's stepping on a few land mines to make a load of noise and select from the real issues affecting the profession, namely
- Bigger class sizes
- Less SNAs
- Less support for kids with SEN
- 3 tiered wage system for teachers which is highly unfair
- more and more paper work as we blindly follow a failed UK model of education as we try to emulate the Finnish model without actually putting any money into it
- Increased supervision & substitution hours and removal of €1800 a year for this

xxmeabhxx · 22-04-2014 4:18pm

I think the people who are arguing for Higher level maths are forgetting just how simplistic and easy it is at primary school level. We're literally talking about addition, subtraction, long multiplication/division and very simple fractions, decimals, angles and very simple geometry (area and perimeter of a rectangle etc.) Also, it takes a lot more effort to do higher maths than higher irish or english. A good primary teacher is one that knows the concepts they're teaching thoroughly and has excellent communication skills enabling them to teach it in a way children will understand. You don't need to know higher level trigonometry and differentiation. Even though it's easy to pass ordinary level maths, it still would ensure you understand primary school concepts

No Pants · 22-04-2014 4:18pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes!

I had to look it up on the NCCA website, but it now appears that there are actually three examination levels for leaving cert maths; Foundation, Ordinary and Higher. From what you're saying, the first two are not fit for purpose. Have you made your concerns known to the Department of Education or the Minister?

oak5548 · 22-04-2014 4:19pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Added a few words.

And? Not everyone is fantastic at honours maths, or maths in general.
That shouldnt prevent them from doing something that doesnt actually require, an honours level of maths.

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 4:19pm

Just throwing this thought out there: there's nothing stopping anyone from taking Higher Level maths now, regardless of what they did in their Leaving Cert.

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 4:21pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If we really want to value our teachers, we need to stop bashing them at every corner.

Or another way of putting it: if we really want to have teachers that deserve to be valued, we should set extremely high standards for them.

AnonoBoy · 22-04-2014 4:22pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People have to stop believing the myth that Higher Level maths is only for people destined to be brain surgeons and rocket-scientists. It is a fairly fundamental level of maths.

Nah. You're talking sh*te there mate.

I did Ordinary Level Maths in the Leaving and I could easily teach a Junior Cert Honours Maths class in the morning no hassle. When I learn stuff I remember it.

And to say someone can't teach a 12 year old maths because they only did Ordinary Level at Leaving Cert is just b*llocks.

The minister is throwing this out there because they want to lessen the numbers of people going into teaching I'd say. It's nothing to do with competency but they can't say "we're cutting back on teacher numbers folks so we want to put future teachers off doing it by putting this unnecessary requirement in place!"

Mardy Bum · 22-04-2014 4:23pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I would argue it's the teachers who can show ignorance in thinking that working your ass off outside of traditional working hours is something unique to them. There are few jobs on offer these days that don't involve a ton of extra work and most certainly don't pay what a teacher gets paid, even starting off.

I was simply trying to explain what teaching like for someone who has never taught. I didn't state either way whether this was working your ass off or not.

No Pants · 22-04-2014 4:25pm

oak5548 wrote: »

And? Not everyone is fantastic at honours maths, or maths in general.
That shouldnt prevent them from doing something that doesnt actually require, an honours level of maths.

No way. I want my woodwork teacher to be able to define Sine, Cos and Tan.

AnonoBoy · 22-04-2014 4:25pm

No Pants wrote: »

No way. I want my woodwork teacher to be able to define Sine, Cos and Tan.

Yeah, cause knowing what they are is honours maths level only!

Red Nissan · 22-04-2014 4:27pm

Good point on the Maths. I agree.

I'm very offended that the teachers are now blaming STUDENTS for just guessing what was going to come up and then just study that only.

In my leaving Cert back in 1972 the teacher decided in 5th class what was going to come up for us two years later, he was spot on.

I actually complained about this at the time, only one teacher turned around and started teaching the whole syllabus. History ~ been fascinated ever since.

I was the first of the 'free' education too, THAT was the excuse used back then for this practice.

Teacher, don't blame the students.

No Pants · 22-04-2014 4:32pm

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Yeah, cause knowing what they are is honours maths level only!

No way. I want my woodwork teacher to be able to solve trigonometric equations such as Sin nθ = 0 and Cos nθ = ½ giving all solutions.

Better?

Red Nissan · 22-04-2014 4:33pm

AnonoBoy wrote: »

The minister is throwing this out there because they want to lessen the numbers of people going into teaching I'd say.

Possibly to attract a balance, if gender quotas are forced through, teaching will find it harder than the Dáil to comply.

Also probably keeping an eye on flexibility with future education changes in mind.

painauchocolat · 22-04-2014 4:41pm

Just a quick comment on the need for HL Irish for primary teaching: all qualified Irish primary school teachers are qualified to teach in both English language schools and gaelscoileanna. Realistically, you'd need to have achieved a C or higher at HL to have the level of fluency to teach the senior classes as Gaeilge.

Kermit.de.frog · 22-04-2014 5:15pm

Listening to the ASTI conference on the radio now. It's ear opening stuff. They come across as ignorant, childish people with a wonderful sense of entitlement and just an all round atrocious attitude.

The students come secondary. It's all them, them, them.

Birroc · 22-04-2014 5:15pm

I do not agree with the HL Maths argument but I do think Quinn is an excellent minister. I truly believe he wants to improve education in Ireland. And the sooner they get rid of religious teaching in school the better. It should be done by a) parents b) priests.

ninebeanrows · 22-04-2014 5:20pm

What a pathetic response from the audience, I would be embarassed to be in that crowd.

Do they seriously think people will respect their opinion with behaviour like that?

Teachers behave like children at their conferences

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