Teachers behave like children at their conferences

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 4:36pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'm not. I'm specifically stating that these are the type of people we don't want teaching! Not commenting on those that are teaching.

You don't want people who dedicate two years of their teenage lives to get the points they need for the training course of their choice, for their vocation, because some of them don't want to stress themselves out with Honours Maths on top of the race for points?

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 4:37pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Have you ever managed a team?

You are possibly talking about a head teacher.

Have you ever managed a team which had very little enthusiasm or initiative?

You are definitely talking about a head teacher.

Pompette · 22-04-2014 4:40pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So they were afraid of hard work?

Are these the type of people we want teaching our kids?

A lot of people use that tactic... and that's long before they start into their chosen profession. People want to maximise the points they can get versus the amount of work they have to put in. Not much point killing yourself trying to do well in HL maths and letting other subjects suffer (subjects you could do well in with less work).
That is not being afraid of hard work... is called working to your strengths.

Mardy Bum · 22-04-2014 4:42pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

You are possibly talking about a head teacher.
You are definitely talking about a head teacher.

No I am not. I am trying to give an example of what managing and teaching a room full of children is like to someone who has no experience of it. The class is a team and each person has to be given direction, managed and assessed.

TimeToShine · 22-04-2014 4:44pm

Daisies wrote: »

Ah here, it always comes back to the same "sure they only work half the time". As a previous poster said, if their working conditions are so good why didn't you go into teaching?

I did a STEM degree which in my view gave me better opportunities. It's also very difficult to find a job in teaching. I don't contest the fact that it's a tough profession to break into, but once you do it's smooth sailing with a job safety guarantee that I doubt any other profession could match.

An File wrote: »

That's bullshit as well.

Care to elaborate?

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Have you ever had to give a presentation in work?
Have you ever had to give one for 5-6 hours?
How much preparation would you put into organising your presentation?
Would the specific audience to whom you are delivering you presentation change the manner in which you present your information?
Have you ever managed a team?
Have you ever managed a team of 30 people?
How was that experience? Have you ever managed a team which had very little enthusiasm or initiative?
How was that experience?

Now imagine all that with children and adolescents.

The amount of ignorance is hard to swallow.

Are you kidding? Anyone could phrase their job like that to make it seem practically impossible. For what it's worth, I gave grinds for 2 years in HL maths after the LC so I know what it's like to teach, or as you refer to it perform an "hour long presentation". Don't get me wrong, the job is clearly challenging, but the fact that teachers still complain when they have it just fine is what irks me. And for what it's worth, I do believe if a teacher hated maths at LC level they will either directly or indirectly convey a dislike for maths which will translate over to the kids. But that's just my opinion as opposed to any facts. The simple matter of the fact is they work 5 hours a day. It could be the most difficult job in the world at that time but it's still 5 hours and I gladly welcome anyone who wants to dispute that.

TBH, I find it ludicrous that teachers have the audacity to whinge when nurses are getting screwed over left right and center for doing an infinitely more difficult and less rewarding job. Call me bigoted and all that but all I see from the primary/secondary school teachers I have had and/or know is a cushy lifestyle that's hard to match if you want to live in Ireland.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 4:44pm

Cantremember wrote: »

Of course if we think that only the best is good enough for our little one then we will be flying in the super duper teacher from far far away. The best things are always far away.

That was genuinely funny (not a slight...I genuinely laughed).

But on the point you made - Higher Level maths is open to all...its not from far, far away.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 4:46pm

An File wrote: »

You don't want people who dedicate two years of their teenage lives to get the points they need for the training course of their choice, for their vocation, because some of them don't want to stress themselves out with Honours Maths on top of the race for points?

I want the best, most ambitous, most gifted teachers we can get. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Cantremember · 22-04-2014 4:47pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That was genuinely funny (not a slight...I genuinely laughed).

But on the point you made - Higher Level maths is open to all...its not from far, far away.

That's not the point I made.

22-04-2014 4:47pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Have you ever had to give a presentation in work?
Have you ever had to give one for 5-6 hours?
How much preparation would you put into organising your presentation?
Would the specific audience to whom you are delivering you presentation change the manner in which you present your information?
Have you ever managed a team?
Have you ever managed a team of 30 people?
How was that experience? Have you ever managed a team which had very little enthusiasm or initiative?
How was that experience?

Now imagine all that with children and adolescents.

The amount of ignorance is hard to swallow.

I would argue it's the teachers who can show ignorance in thinking that working your ass off outside of traditional working hours is something unique to them. There are few jobs on offer these days that don't involve a ton of extra work and most certainly don't pay what a teacher gets paid, even starting off.

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 4:48pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

No I am not. I am trying to give an example of what managing and teaching a room full of children is like to someone who has no experience of it. The class is a team and each person has to be given direction, managed and assessed.

Okay, so you are saying you are earning your keep, it's a difficult job that requires certain skills, etc., and I think most people accept that.

But you have also implied that it is more difficult in Ireland than most places. Would you care to give sources for the stats you outlined in post #131? Because I'm not convinced that they are all entirely accurate.

Or to put it another way: "Give reasons for your answer."

Wicklowrider · 22-04-2014 4:49pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I missed the congratulatory thread for that but then again I wasn't expecting it.

Who gets congratulated for doing what they are paid to do?

The smug, self entitled and precious tone of your post is a good example of some teacher's perception of reality. Must be truly difficult for the talented and hard working members of your profession to deal with that whining on a daily basis.

Pompette · 22-04-2014 4:50pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

Are you kidding? Anyone could phrase their job like that to make it seem practically impossible. For what it's worth, I gave grinds for 2 years in HL maths after the LC so I know what it's like to teach, or as you refer to it perform an "hour long presentation". Don't get me wrong, the job is clearly challenging, but the fact that teachers still complain when they have it just fine is what irks me. And for what it's worth, I do believe if a teacher hated maths at LC level they will either directly or indirectly convey a dislike for maths which will translate over to the kids. But that's just my opinion as opposed to any facts. The simple matter of the fact is they work 5 hours a day. It could be the most difficult job in the world at that time but it's still 5 hours and I gladly welcome anyone who wants to dispute that.

Ha giving grinds does NOT mean you know how to teach. You do realise that teachers teach 30 kids at a time, and let me tell you that is VERY different from teaching one student. It's laughable what you're suggesting.

I openly dispute this 'they work 5 hours a day'. It's absolute rubbish and only shows your complette ignorance of the profession. And at secondary level it's even worse.

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 4:52pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I want the best, most ambitous, most gifted teachers we can get. I don't see what's wrong with that.

That's not what you said the first time around.

No Pants · 22-04-2014 4:52pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So you would be happy with a primary school teacher teaching english to pupils with just a primary school pupil's understanding of the subject?

You mean a teacher that hasn't gone to secondary school at all? I don't think anyone is even suggesting that.

Woodville56 · 22-04-2014 4:52pm

Spring Onion wrote: »

Quinn was absolutely right about one thing - we need to take religion out of schools

Perhaps put it another way - take the schools out of religion - let Mr Quinn establish, fund and manage the multi denominational school model he so yearns for . His constant whinging about and sniping at the Catholjc Church belies a deeper secularist/ agnostic agenda which he would wish to impose in this country. He begrudgingly accepts the role of the Catholic Church ( for good and sometimes not so good ) in Irish education and until he is in the position to provide the multi denominational school system he espouses he needs to acknowledge which side his bread is buttered on - he can't have it both ways , use the Catholic schools system for the bits he likes and demand it abandon it's ethos for bits he doesn't agree with !
I have no religious affiliation and no liking for organised religion but all the same I have to acknowledge that I received a decent education in the Catholjc school system, both at primary and secondary level. I accept that education in modern Ireland must accommodate students of all and /or no faith but to expect the Catholic education system to abandon their ethos for the sake of multi cultural inclusion is taking the soft option on the Minister's part . Besides , I doubt very much if he has the democratic or public mandate to have the teaching of religion in schools with Catholic patronage relegated to an optional extra , however much he would like it !

whisky_galore · 22-04-2014 4:53pm

Shure if the sun came out, couldn't they take the conference outside?

Cantremember · 22-04-2014 4:55pm

Woodville56 wrote: »

Perhaps put it another way - take the schools out of religion - let Mr Quinn establish, fund and manage the multi denominational school model he so yearns for . His constant whinging about and sniping at the Catholjc Church belies a deeper secularist/ agnostic agenda which he would wish to impose in this country. He begrudgingly accepts the role of the Catholic Church ( for good and sometimes not so good ) in Irish education and until he is in the position to provide the multi denominational school system he espouses he needs to acknowledge which side his bread is buttered on - he can't have it both ways , use the Catholic schools system for the bits he likes and demand it abandon it's ethos for bits he doesn't agree with !
I have no religious affiliation and no liking for organised religion but all the same I have to acknowledge that I received a decent education in the Catholjc school system, both at primary and secondary level. I accept that education in modern Ireland must accommodate students of all and /or no faith but to expect the Catholic education system to abandon their ethos for the sake of multi cultural inclusion is taking the soft option on the Minister's part . Besides , I doubt very much if he has the democratic or public mandate to have the teaching of religion in schools with Catholic patronage relegated to an optional extra , however much he would like it !

Multi denominational simply continues the same flawed model. Non denominational is the answer. Teach religion from 3 to 3.30 you get the building free with light and heat and you supply your priest vicar mullah rabbi whatever.

Mardy Bum · 22-04-2014 4:56pm

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Who gets congratulated for doing what they are paid to do?

The smug, self entitled and precious tone of your post is a good example of some teacher's perception of reality. Must be truly difficult for the talented and hard working members of your profession to deal with that whining on a daily basis.

Hold on a second. Whinging? Have you seen the title of the OP? I wasn't whinging I was pointing out the realities of teaching. Did you even read the post? It was about the decrease in the education budget. The point at the end was made in jest but I didn't think I would have to actually explicitly say so.

mariaalice · 22-04-2014 4:58pm

I don't thing people are getting it, you do not NEED higher level maths to be a primary school no more that you need higher lever Irish or English, however those that do higher level maths then to be the best of the best academically and those are the candidates he want to attract to teaching it as simple as that.

If that is a good idea or not is another question.

Donkey Oaty · 22-04-2014 4:59pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Did you even read the post?

Hang on, you are not in the classroom now.

Dark sarcasm will not be tolerated in AH.

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 5:03pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Dark sarcasm will not be tolerated in AH.

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

Pompette · 22-04-2014 5:04pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I don't thing people are getting it, you do not NEED higher level maths to be a primary school no more that you need higher lever Irish or English, however those that do higher level maths then to be the best of the best academically and those are the candidates he want to attract to teaching it as simple as that.

If that is a good idea or not is another question.

Well with the way working conditions and education in general are going he certainly won't be attracting the best and brightest to the teaching profession....

No Pants · 22-04-2014 5:05pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I would argue it's the teachers who can show ignorance in thinking that working your ass off outside of traditional working hours is something unique to them. There are few jobs on offer these days that don't involve a ton of extra work and most certainly don't pay what a teacher gets paid, even starting off.

There are plenty of jobs with a fixed start and end time. Very few of them come with the responsibility that a teacher takes on, especially at the beginning of their career. In Loco Parentis anyone?

oak5548 · 22-04-2014 5:06pm

So whats the general AH consensus?
I personally think its madness to have higher level maths requirement for primary school teachers.

For secondary school teachers, possibly yeah. But having a higher level requirement for primary would prevent so many people from becoming teachers, it would be downright unfair.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 5:08pm

No Pants wrote: »

You mean a teacher that hasn't gone to secondary school at all? I don't think anyone is even suggesting that.

They are effectively tolerating this position for maths. Allowing people who have no real understanding of the subject (couldn't pass higher level leaving cert) in secondary school, to teach the subject to children.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 5:09pm

oak5548 wrote: »

So whats the general AH consensus?
I personally think its madness to have higher level maths requirement for primary school teachers.

For secondary school teachers, possibly yeah. But having a higher level requirement for primary would prevent so many people from becoming teachers, it would be downright unfair.......to people who don't understand maths

Added a few words.

No Pants · 22-04-2014 5:11pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Allowing people who have no real understanding of the subject (couldn't pass higher level leaving cert) in secondary school, to teach the subject to children.

So anyone who has sat and passed an ordinary level maths paper, no matter their score, has no real understanding of the subject? Now, I did leave school in 1992, but have standards really fallen that far?

Valetta · 22-04-2014 5:12pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

They are effectively tolerating this position for maths. Allowing people who have no real understanding of the subject (couldn't pass higher level leaving cert) in secondary school, to teach the subject to children.

You have just highly insulted all students who take ordinary level maths for the leaving.

For shame.

131spanner · 22-04-2014 5:12pm

I don't think HL Maths should be made a requirement for Primary teaching. When you're teaching 5 or 6 year old kids, you have to be as much a mother to them as a teacher. It'd also put opportunities out of reach for people who are great at dealing with young people and who would make great teachers, but not able for HL maths.

That said, I can't see why HL Irish is a requirement but Maths isn't.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 5:12pm

No Pants wrote: »

So anyone who has sat and passed an ordinary level maths paper, no matter their score, has no real understanding of the subject? Now, I did leave school in 1992, but have standards really fallen that far?

Yes!

Teachers behave like children at their conferences

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