Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

redt0m

Sequence of events was Tyrion gets cup from Sansa, pours some and gives it to Joffrey who takes a drink. After this drink, Joffrey is still OK so it can't have been something Sansa put in the cup. When pie arrives, he gives cup to Margaery, who puts it on table to her right, the Tyrell side of the banquet. After Joffrey cuts open pie, he goes back up and tells Tyrion to get him his cup again. Joffrey then takes another drink and it is after this drink that he starts being affected. So it must be the Tyrells who are involved - we don't see anyone handling the cup here except Margaery and Tyrion, but I can't see Tyrion doing it. Only others nearby are Olenna or Mace maybe, so they're all suspects.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Brendan Filone

Gonna miss that lil cunt.

mayordenis

I think anyone who says it couldn't have beeen this or that should consider that poisons have different rates at which they are effective, now maybe you know more than me about the poison that was apparently used but to someone who hasn't read the books I have no reason to believe the time at which he dies means it was only the previous drink that did it.

Artful_Badger

mayordenis wrote: »

I think anyone who says it couldn't have beeen this or that should consider that poisons have different rates at which they are effective, now maybe you know more than me about the poison that was apparently used but to someone who hasn't read the books I have no reason to believe the time at which he dies means it was only the previous drink that did it.

Given he went from grand to bleeding from every orifice and dead in a matter of seconds though its most likely a fast acting poison he consumed just before he started coughing IMO.

thefa

Sansa has been a pawn in other people's schemes to date. Despite having plenty of motive, it doesn't change her characteristics to make her look like someone who could orchestrate such a murder.

If the necklace was the source of the poison (as the reddit theory suggests) then Ser Dontos played his part in a conspiracy but is looking to save Sansa by telling her they need to leave now. Whether she stays and is found to have poison on her neck or flees, she looks as guilty as Tyrion but she increases her chances of survival by trying to escape. Ser Dontos might have tricked her into wearing the necklace but still appreciates how she saved his life.

Kold

I think it was Tywin. It actually consolidates his grip getting the monster out, people will embrace the new Lannister after that nutjob. Also masterfully swats the Tyrrells aside and whatever they had in mind. However, the glancing looks from the two gay lads suggests that they may have a new alliance to come.

Be funny if it turns out it was the Kingslayer out of habit.

Irishcrx

Outstanding episode had me gripped the whole way through , as others have said we've all being waiting for Joffrey to get what was coming to him and it played out extremely well up to the last minute of what a twisted little **** he truly was ,you can imagine what he would have become had he lived and sat on the throne for years to come.

Jack Gleeson did an excellent at portraying him , he did it so well and his final scene was excellent, we all needed to see Joffrey suffer to bring his charactor to an end.

In terms of who killed him? Who knows? Many had reason too. By the look on Tyrians face it wasn't him he looked shocked , Cersai/Jamie I don't think they would kill their own. Tyrin perhaps, but more than likely it's the old grandmother or Sansa.

It leaves the issue of the marriage not being consumated , I'd imagine that will be taken as a serious spanner in the works of Margery trying to proclaim herself Queen now.

Artful_Badger

Kold wrote: »

I think it was Tywin. It actually consolidates his grip getting the monster out, people will embrace the new Lannister after that nutjob. Also masterfully swats the Tyrrells aside and whatever they had in mind. However, the glancing looks from the two gay lads suggests that they may have a new alliance to come.

Be funny if it turns out it was the Kingslayer out of habit.

Doubt it was Tywin, the reason he wanted the marriage was because he needed the Tyrelle's money and army. That hasn't changed, they are still at war and still broke.

I dont think any Lannister would kill have killed Joffrey either even as big a cúnt as he was. Just basically leaves them up shít creek without an asshole.

yumyumbumbum

I think it was Loras working with the crazy Dornish guy. They shared a little knowing look before the whole thing happened. How would they know each other otherwise? I am sad that Joffrey is gone though, I loved to hate him

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i think that was just another "hey this crazy dornish guy is so crazy, he has sex with women AND men. oh that guy!"

Easy Rod

yumyumbumbum wrote: »

I think it was Loras working with the crazy Dornish guy. They shared a little knowing look before the whole thing happened. How would they know each other otherwise? I am sad that Joffrey is gone though, I loved to hate him

I think your username has more to do with the look they gave each other rather than any conspiracy.

Artful_Badger

yumyumbumbum wrote: »

I think it was Loras working with the crazy Dornish guy. They shared a little knowing look before the whole thing happened. How would they know each other otherwise? I am sad that Joffrey is gone though, I loved to hate him

They are both gay and caught each others eye, thats what that was.

Grimebox

Artful_Badger

^^^ Wha

Grimebox

Oh good lord, wrong thread!

SherlockWatson

The look that Sansa shares with tyrion after handing him the glass, is because its the first time she's helped him, and no longer sees him as "one of those cünting lannisters"

Doubt either of them were aware of the poisoning IMO.

J. Marston

Grimebox wrote: »

Oh good lord, wrong thread!

I'm intrigued though. Is it a picture puzzle?

Karate. Drill bit. Euro. Rat.

This could take a while.

Grimebox

J. Marston wrote: »

I'm intrigued though. Is it a picture puzzle?

Karate. Drill bit. Euro. Rat.

This could take a while.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056871642&page=298

RobertKK

It should also be remembered that by marrying Tyrion and Sansa and in the belief the other Starks are all dead, Tywin Lannister believes he will sow up having the North through that marriage.

If the Tyrells implicate Tyrion in the murder of the King, it prevents that from happening, which gives motives again to the Tyrells and Sansa to carry it out.

Though Cersei could be involved, she hates Tyrion, sees Margaery Tyrell as a threat, in previous episodes said she cannot control Joffrey, it messes up things for her father who is forcing marriage on her as part of his big plan and maybe the plan is to implicate the Tyrells and put an end to her arranged marriage.

The murder of Joffrey will dominate this series, I am sure.

btw I think Sansa has been growing in strength and character, in series 1 she was blind to Joffrey before going to Kings landing, then when she saw how brutal he was, she did what was needed to survive, in the last series she for the first time spoke about how terrible he was - something which was inconceivable in series 1.
Sansa may appear weak, but she is now a strong woman who has learned how to survive. In the beginning at Kings landing when her family all disappeared, she had no one. Now that has changed too.
Sansa is intriguing in her own way, the image of being weak, but yet so strong.

RobertKK

J. Marston wrote: »

I'm intrigued though. Is it a picture puzzle?

Karate. Drill bit. Euro. Rat.

This could take a while.

A King Joffrey torture chamber

Grimebox

Why did Cersei overrule Margery's wishes to give the left-overs to the poor? Was she just bitter?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Gamayun

The scene where Tyrion is deliberately mean to Shae to drive her away reminded me of the scene from Harry and the Hendersons where John Lithgow does the same thing to Harry.

Pistons Life

Best episode ever, just hoped it was more painful death.
I think we will now will have to hate his mother.

yumyumbumbum

TBH I'm kind of glad that Shae has left, I really liked her character in the beginning but the increasing clingy-ness with Tyrion was getting on my nerves

Artful_Badger

Pistons Life wrote: »

Best episode ever, just hoped it was more painful death.
I think we will now will have to hate his mother.

You mean hate her more right ? Cos I hated her from the get go.

Da Shins Kelly

RobertKK wrote: »

It should also be remembered that by marrying Tyrion and Sansa and in the belief the other Starks are all dead, Tywin Lannister believes he will sow up having the North through that marriage.

If the Tyrells implicate Tyrion in the murder of the King, it prevents that from happening, which gives motives again to the Tyrells and Sansa to carry it out.

Though Cersei could be involved, she hates Tyrion, sees Margaery Tyrell as a threat, in previous episodes said she cannot control Joffrey, it messes up things for her father who is forcing marriage on her as part of his big plan and maybe the plan is to implicate the Tyrells and put an end to her arranged marriage.

The murder of Joffrey will dominate this series, I am sure.

btw I think Sansa has been growing in strength and character, in series 1 she was blind to Joffrey before going to Kings landing, then when she saw how brutal he was, she did what was needed to survive, in the last series she for the first time spoke about how terrible he was - something which was inconceivable in series 1.
Sansa may appear weak, but she is now a strong woman who has learned how to survive. In the beginning at Kings landing when her family all disappeared, she had no one. Now that has changed too.
Sansa is intriguing in her own way, the image of being weak, but yet so strong.

Sansa can seem quite passive, but really there is very little she can do in her position. I remember in season 2 or thereabouts she was fairly cheeky to Joffrey. This was when Rob was still winning all his battles and she says something to him about Rob sticking his head on a spike or some such. Since then, I think she's just despairing over the fact that she's been forced into this loveless marriage and essentially being used as a pawn. As far as she knows, everyone she loves is dead or missing. She has nowhere she can conceivably go. She's imprisoned in this dreadful environment in King's Landing, surrounded by the people who brutally murdered her family. She's clever enough not to do anything too out of the way in order to survive. It seems like the Tyrells may have thrown her a life line though.

Didn't the Boltons say something in the last episode that if anyone got wind in the north that Bran Stark was still alive, that they'd rally behind him? Does that count for Arya too? Or say if Sansa was to get away from the Lannisters and back to the north, would the reaction be the same?

seligehgit

Anybody think Davos will succumb to the charms of the priestess Melisandre?:pac:
Will really miss Joffrey,wicked episode!

golfball37

I didn't enjoy last nights episode as much as others. Thought the wedding scenes would be better from what the previews were saying abaout this glorious Wedding set. Lord Tywin almost came across as human last night also, which disappointed me !

Joffrey as a character will be hard to replace, I loved every scene he was in. Last night he went a bit overboard mental in public which we haven't really seen.

The Bran stuff is boring and needs to get somewhere, at least give us an idea of where its heading? The actor is too old to play the little boy too.

Good interaction between Tyrion and Jaime though and again between Tyrion and Varys, these little one to ones are the lifeblood of the show for me rather than the set pieces of weddings, battles & sieges etc. Can't wait to see more Arya next week hopefully.