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Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

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    #152
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Sonderkommando wrote: »
    Absolutely no sympathy for him at all. I don't wish for him to be executed but truly hope he never sets a foot in this country again.
    he's an irish citizen. so lets hope he does set foot back where he belongs. in ireland

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #153
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    denhaagenite wrote: »
    He and his sisters have said that they were holidaying, shopping, but there were warnings about tourists staying away from areas of unrest. They were not innocently caught up in anything. They were posting on Facebook for weeks beforehand about it. They were actively involved and claiming now that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't agree with him being imprisoned this long without trial or being executed but they need to take some responsibility for their actions. They considered themselves Egyptian until they realised that the Irish government are far more likely to get them out of the mess that they wholeheartedly walked into.
    they were protesting. so what. that is being innocent

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #154
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Sonderkommando wrote: »
    Absolutely no sympathy for him at all. I don't wish for him to be executed but truly hope he never sets a foot in this country again.

    What exactly is it that you think he did in Egypt?


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    #155
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,131 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    R P McMurphy wrote: »
    What exactly is it that you think he did in Egypt?

    Walked like an Egyptian.


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    #156
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Who let's a 17 year old go to a war zone?

    Plus I love how the imagery has changed over the months - now he's pictured on a tricolour background wearing a track suit top!!


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    #157
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,642 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Calibos wrote: »
    ...after I got mixed up in human rights protests or something.

    So innocuous.
    Much accidental.


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    #158
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Who let's a 17 year old go to a war zone?

    There was war in Egypt at the time? Also, they arrived before the trouble started from what I understand. Either way it wasn't a war zone as you put it.


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    #159
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    wes wrote: »
    There was war in Egypt at the time? Also, they arrived before the trouble started from what I understand. Either way it wasn't a war zone as you put it.

    Yes, ok - there wasn't an interstate war going on, but let's face it there was severe civil disruption and they went there of their own volition.

    Now they expect to baled out by the government.

    If they want to help the disadvantaged and haven't we plenty here they could've worked with?


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    #160
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Yes, ok - there wasn't an interstate war going on, but let's face it there was severe civil disruption and they went there of their own volition.

    Now they expect to baled out by the government.

    If they want to help the disadvantaged and haven't we plenty here they could've worked with?

    Again, my understanding was they were there before the unrest, and again all they did was get involved in a protest, and I find it bizarre that this seems to enrage people so much, with people saying he should be allowed back in the country etc. You would think he was murdering puppies for a laugh, the way some people are going on.


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    #161
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,642 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Jawgap wrote: »
    ...If they want to help the disadvantaged and haven't we plenty here they could've worked with?

    Most of us would be considered kafirs.


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    #162
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    josip wrote: »
    Most of us would be considered kafirs.

    You are basing this on what exactly? Has the lad who is prison said anything of the sort, or are you just making stuff up, to make him seem like some kind of villan. As it stands, he got involved in a protest, and there is feck all proof of him doing anything else, so people are left with making stuff up to justify there irrational hatred and anger and this guy. Utterly bizarre stuff.


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    #163
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    wes wrote: »
    Again, my understanding was they were there before the unrest, and again all they did was get involved in a protest, and I find it bizarre that this seems to enrage people so much, with people saying he should be allowed back in the country etc. You would think he was murdering puppies for a laugh, the way some people are going on.

    Yes and when it all kicked off the Irish ambassador arranged safe passage for them, they refused and opted to stay THEN they were arrested!

    He's there because he was silly enough to go and not clever enough to come out when he had the opportunity.


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    #164
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    end of the road wrote: »
    he's an irish citizen. so lets hope he does set foot back where he belongs. in ireland

    He's also an Egyptian citizen and when the Halawas spoke at the Muslim Brotherhood rally, they referred to themselves as "Egyptians living outside". Well, one's no longer outside. He's home in Egypt.



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    #165
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Jawgap wrote: »
    He's there because he was silly enough to go and not clever enough to come out when he had the opportunity.

    Ok, and I fail to see how that justifies people saying he shouldn't come back to Ireland, or the sheer amount of hatred being directed at the guy.

    Seriously, he got involved in a protest and stayed when he should have probably returned to Ireland, and thats it. The amount of crap being thrown at him on this thread, would lead someone to think as per the example I gave earlier that he was killing puppies or something.

    **EDIT**
    Looks like what your saying was untrue, so again people making stuff up. Honestly, did this guy insult posters mothers or something?
    **END EDIT**


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    #166
    Putinovsky
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Putinovsky


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Yes and when it all kicked off the Irish ambassador arranged safe passage for them, they refused and opted to stay THEN they were arrested!

    That never happened. There was no need for safe passage because flights were running without problem. The Irish government offered to help when it learnt of their arrest and detention.

    Also they all consider themselves Irish, I know people that are close to them.

    Why do you feel the need to lie and make things up? It's sad that you try push a disgusting agenda on a thread about an Irish teen who risks execution.


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    #167
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    at 17 and an irish citizen maybe something should have been done, irrespective of why he was in egypt in the first place.
    i figure nothing's been done for the simple reason that ireland hasn't the connections/interest to deal with it.


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    #168
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    He's also an Egyptian citizen and when the Halawas spoke at the Muslim Brotherhood rally, they referred to themselves as "Egyptians living outside". Well, one's no longer outside. He's home in Egypt.

    Now, it would far more accurate to say he is in prison for protesting, and is also an Irish citizen, and not as you put it "He's home in Egypt. ".


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    #169
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Putinovsky wrote: »
    That never happened. There was no need for safe passage because flights were running without problem. The Irish government offered to help when it learnt of their arrest and detention.

    Also they all consider themselves Irish, I know people that are close to them.

    Why do you feel the need to lie and make things up? It's sad that you try push a disgusting agenda on a thread about an Irish teen who risks execution.

    Really? Because according to the story in the Irish Times
    Irish Ambassador Isolde Moylan managed to obtain a safe passage out of the mosque where Mr Halawa and his three sisters - Somaia (28), Fatima (23), and Omaima (21)- were trapped and their exit to Ireland. However, they refused and were arrested.

    They are Irish citizens - I'm not denying that. But they had consular assistance - very good consular assistance if the ambassador was involved - and didn't avail of the opportunity. They wanted to make a political point - well they're making it.


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    #170
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    wes wrote: »
    Ok, and I fail to see how that justifies people saying he shouldn't come back to Ireland, or the sheer amount of hatred being directed at the guy.

    Seriously, he got involved in a protest and stayed when he should have probably returned to Ireland, and thats it. The amount of crap being thrown at him on this thread, would lead someone to think as per the example I gave earlier that he was killing puppies or something.

    **EDIT**
    Looks like what your saying was untrue, so again people making stuff up. Honestly, did this guy insult posters mothers or something?
    **END EDIT**

    I don't hate him and don't think he should be executed. It's sad that Egypt isn't as tolerant and liberal a society as the one we live in. I believe in the right to protest, but unfortunately the Egyptians didn't at the time. The Halawas went to Egypt with the intention of demonstrating, in fact spearheading the demonstrations. Now they're claiming they were the integrated Irish children of expats returning to visit their family.


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    #171
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    denhaagenite wrote: »
    I don't hate him and don't think he should be executed. It's sad that Egypt isn't as tolerant and liberal a society as the one we live in.

    I was talking about the general vitriol being fired his way.
    denhaagenite wrote: »
    I believe in the right to protest, but unfortunately the Egyptians didn't at the time.

    There were dozens of protests before and after, and the country was briefly before that time a democracy.
    denhaagenite wrote: »
    The Halawas went to Egypt with the intention of demonstrating, in fact spearheading the demonstrations. Now they're claiming they were the integrated Irish children of expats returning to visit their family.

    Again, last I checked they were there before the protests happened, as for spear heading the demonstrations, that sounds like hyperbole.


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    #172
    Putinovsky
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Putinovsky


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Really? Because according to the story in the Irish Times



    They are Irish citizens - I'm not denying that. But they had consular assistance - very good consular assistance if the ambassador was involved - and didn't avail of the opportunity. They wanted to make a political point - well they're making it.

    Out of the mosque where they were already being detained by a surrounding police force. They refused because they feared that those not in the same position would be slaughtered by police once the non-nationals had vacated.

    I commend them for that sort of courage, its a shame we don't have more young Irish teens like them, what a credit to our country.


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    #173
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    wes wrote: »
    Now, it would far more accurate to say he is in prison for protesting, and is also an Irish citizen, and not as you put it "He's home in Egypt. ".

    I'm not interested in getting into a banal argument with you. Let's look at the legal aspect to this.
    "Let's say you're an Egyptian citizen as well as a Canadian citizen. The authorities would probably be emboldened to take more aggressive action because you're subject to laws of that country as a citizen."

    When it comes to international law and the treatment of dual nationals, some countries have signed on to a 1930 Hague convention. That treaty states that a state "may not afford diplomatic protection to one of its nationals against a state whose nationality such person also possesses." 

    "It's not a treaty that obliges the government to provide protection," said ​Macklin. "It's simply one that says in these circumstances if you sign this treaty you are saying you won't [provide protection] when the person is in the country of their other nationality."

    But Canada is not a signatory to that treaty.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mohamed-fahmy-case-dual-citizenship-can-complicate-diplomatic-protection-1.2684357

    But Ireland is a signatory. Ergo, for all intents of purposes he will be treated as an Egyptian citizen. Other than ensuring that he's being humanely treated, I think that there is little the state can do.

    Whether he prefers Mido or Robbie Keane matters not a jot.


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    #174
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    wes wrote: »

    Again, last I checked they were there before the protests happened, as for spear heading the demonstrations, that sounds like hyperbole.

    Did you not watch the video on the previous page? Addressing a crowd on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood? They were there before the protests, correct. But they intentionally went to protest and that is a fact. As I said they made no secret of this fact on social media before they went.

    I completely believe in the integration and assimilation of those who wish to be Irish citizens but involvement in the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't suggest to me a family that are overly interested in their Irish heritage. They're not even interested in the safety of their 17 year old boy.

    Having said that, they are Irish citizens. The consulate went to their assistance and were told that it wasn't wanted. That, I believe, is as much as they are owed as Irish citizens.


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    #175
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Putinovsky wrote: »
    Out of the mosque where they were already being detained by a surrounding police force. They refused because they feared that those not in the same position would be slaughtered by police once the non-nationals had vacated.

    I commend them for that sort of courage, its a shame we don't have more young Irish teens like them, what a credit to our country.

    So they placed themselves in that position? They were given a choice and decided to stay?

    What business has an Irish citizen protesting in a country they don't live in?

    And I'm glad we don't have too many teens silly enough to go into authoritarian regimes to protest - it rarely ends well, for them or their families.


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    #176
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    denhaagenite wrote: »
    Did you not watch the video on the previous page? Addressing a crowd on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood?

    Protests that has a lot of people speaking at them. Speaking at a protest isn't the same as spear heading them.
    denhaagenite wrote: »
    They were there before the protests, correct. But they intentionally went to protest and that is a fact. As I said they made no secret of this fact on social media before they went.

    No one is denying that they decided to protest, when they were already there.
    denhaagenite wrote: »
    I completely believe in the integration and assimilation of those who wish to be Irish citizens but involvement in the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't suggest to me a family that are overly interested in their Irish heritage. They're not even interested in the safety of their 17 year old boy.

    He was involved in what were arguable pro-democracy protests, and I fail to see why integration has to do with anything.
    denhaagenite wrote: »
    Having said that, they are Irish citizens. The consulate went to their assistance and were told that it wasn't wanted. That, I believe, is as much as they are owed as Irish citizens.

    Hardly justifies the some of the comments on here, about how he shouldn't be allowed back etc now does it?


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    #177
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    I'm not interested in getting into a banal argument with you.

    Then, maybe don't trot stuff like that on a internet message board if you don't want to get into arguments then......
    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    Let's look at the legal aspect to this.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mohamed-fahmy-case-dual-citizenship-can-complicate-diplomatic-protection-1.2684357

    But Ireland is a signatory. Ergo, for all intents of purposes he will be treated as an Egyptian citizen. Other than ensuring that he's being humanely treated, I think that there is little the state can do.

    Well, if we are going to talk about legality, then I am pretty sure a military junta is completely illegal........


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    #178
    Putinovsky
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Putinovsky


    Jawgap wrote: »

    And I'm glad we don't have too many teens silly enough to go into authoritarian regimes to protest - it rarely ends well, for them or their families.

    We Irish have an incredibly proud history of standing up to bullies. There are a number of Irish human rights activists on the front lines in China, Israel, Nepal and of course Egypt.

    I am incredibly proud at how courageous these teens were, they risked their lives for a worthwhile cause. I'm sure a lot of those who were with them will think of Ireland very fondly as a result.

    I think people like you are a blight on the country. Too afraid to stand up for anything and perfectly content to criticize those brave enough to risk their lives. I am glad some of our youth has more backbone than the likes of you.


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    #179
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    wes wrote: »
    Protests that has a lot of people speaking at them. Speaking at a protest isn't the same as spear heading them.

    They would not be speaking at a protest on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood if they were not members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Protests don't usually have anyone jumping up on the podium to speak. You'd want to have some clout to be afforded the podium. They were part of the organisation, not poor tourists that accidentally got locked in a mosque.

    wes wrote: »
    No one is denying that they decided to protest, when they were already there.

    It was on their Facebook pages before they left to go to Egypt that this was their intention.

    wes wrote: »
    He was involved in what were arguable pro-democracy protests, and I fail to see why integration has to do with anything.

    Pro Muslim Brotherhood protests. Hardly as Irish as soda bread, and I don't believe that a protest in favour of a Muslim society could be argued democratic.
    wes wrote: »
    Hardly justifies the some of the comments on here, about how he shouldn't be allowed back etc now does it?

    I don't agree with those comments. I just think that since they rebuffed the previous attempts of the Irish government to assist there's not a whole lot that can be done about it now.


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    #180
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Putinovsky wrote: »
    We Irish have an incredibly proud history of standing up to bullies. There are a number of Irish human rights activists on the front lines in China, Israel, Nepal and of course Egypt.

    I am incredibly proud at how courageous these teens were, they risked their lives for a worthwhile cause. I'm sure a lot of those who were with them will think of Ireland very fondly as a result.

    I think people like you are a blight on the country. Too afraid to stand up for anything and perfectly content to criticize those brave enough to risk their lives. I am glad some of our youth has more backbone than the likes of you.

    You strike me as the equivalent of a politician who sends soldiers off to war but won't go themselves.....

    .......and I don't mind adults making decisions to go protest, but teens?? You advocate sending teens to protest authoritarianism?

    If you admire them so much, why don't you go?

    .....and you've no idea about me. I've spent nearly half my working life in the service of the State helping real people solve real everyday problems, not to mention the voluntary work I do now. And, yes I've done my protesting.


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    #181
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    BTW, if people want to protest, why not protest the homelessness crisis, the HSE, child poverty, educational disadvantage......right here.


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