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Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

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    #122
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    No, he just let some of his unoffical street thugs do the work.

    So, there is actually no evidence that Mursi admin ordered attacks, and I would point out that the attack by the military were in order of magnitude worse, what with the fairly blatant shooting of protesters in the street.
    conorhal wrote: »
    I didn't suggest otherwise, things were Sh1t under the militery for Copts and secularists and then they were worse under the MB and now they're just as bad as ever, the lunatic fringe of the MB has just been added to the hit list is all. But lets not pretend things were going to be any better for groups that might garner some western support under MB rule.

    I think things would be better under a functioning democracy. If the MB are as unpopular, then immediate elections after the coup, would have seen them out, and things would have been better. The entire notion that the only other option is military rule is absurd.
    conorhal wrote: »
    Don't be disingenuous, the didn manage it becuse they got kicked out. Don't kid youself that, had the MB remained in power for another few years that Egypt wouldn't have morphed into a one party theocratic state like Iran, but probably worse.

    So you can predict the future. You should really use you crystal ball to win the lotto or something.
    conorhal wrote: »
    Again, where did I suggest that I supported the military. The fact of the matter is that I could care less about them, they're a wretched lot, I just consider them less dangerous then the internationalist ambitions of the MB. At lest the militarty junta or more or less contained, a MB ruled Egypt would have brought chaos to the region. I'm just considering the military, in purelty pragmatic terms, the best of a very bad lot.

    How would the MB bring chaos to the region exactly?

    The region btw is already in chaos without them. I fail to see how things are stable now. Functioning democracies would be the only thing that would result in stability in the region.


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    #123
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,983 ✭✭✭conorhal


    wes wrote: »
    So, there is actually no evidence that Mursi admin ordered attacks, and I would point out that the attack by the military were in order of magnitude worse, what with the fairly blatant shooting of protesters in the street.

    I think we all know he has paid thugs under his control, he hardly sends out a presidential edict, but it filters down to them what the MB need them to do.
    wes wrote: »
    I think things would be better under a functioning democracy. If the MB are as unpopular, then immediate elections after the coup, would have seen them out, and things would have been better. The entire notion that the only other option is military rule is absurd.

    I agree, a functioning democracy would be better, the Muslim Brotherhood seemed pretty determined to dismantle that.
    wes wrote: »
    So you can predict the future. You should really use you crystal ball to win the lotto or something.

    If you need a crystal ball to understand where Moiri's centalisation off all authority in his office, his re-writing the consititution and immediate crackdown on any voice of opposition was heading, then you need two crystal balls, from specsavers!
    wes wrote: »
    How would the MB bring chaos to the region exactly?
    The region btw is already in chaos without them. I fail to see how things are stable now. Functioning democracies would be the only thing that would result in stability in the region.

    And the Muslim Brotherhood offer neither democracy or stability, not to Egypt or the region. The MB operate and co-operate with their counterparts in Syria, Lebanon etc and that across the region interference is destabilizing.


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    #124
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    I think we all know he has paid thugs under his control, he hardly sends out a presidential edict, but it filters down to them what the MB need them to do.

    I agree its certainly likely, but we have no way of knowing, considering that the current trials are all Kangaroo courts.
    conorhal wrote: »
    I agree, a functioning democracy would be better, the Muslim Brotherhood seemed pretty determined to dismantle that.

    They were btw, stopped by protesters and they had to roll back any power grabs they were trying. IMHO, the protests were working and were keeping them in check.

    There was no need for a coup, but rather a stronger democracy. The MB were being frustrated in there ambitions already and were hugely unpopular. They would have probably lost another election, but instead we have the current mess.
    conorhal wrote: »
    If you need a crystal ball to understand where Moiri's centalisation off all authority in his office, his re-writing the consititution and immediate crackdown on any voice of opposition was heading, then you need two crystal balls, from specsavers!

    The constitution needed to be rewritten one way or another. The issue was the way he went about it, but btw there was a vote on the constitution, with only 38% (there abouts) voting and it getting over 60% in favor. Compare this to the farcical 98% the miltiary Junta has gotten (clearly it was fixed):

    Egypt referendum: '98% back new constitution'
    conorhal wrote: »
    And the Muslim Brotherhood offer neither democracy or stability, not to Egypt or the region. The MB operate and co-operate with their counterparts in Syria, Lebanon etc and that across the region interference is destabilizing.

    I would say that decades of military strong men and presidents for life, are the real cause of instability. Stifling civil society, and insuring that only the most extreme survive is the problem. Going back military strong men etc, will insure that things will always be unstable.


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    #125
    BetterThanThou
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭BetterThanThou


    I went to school with this guy's best friend. Now, I'm not close to the guy at all, but from what he's put on Facebook. He was only in Egypt visiting home, as that's his home country, he wasn't involved in any protests.


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    #126
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    BetterThanThou wrote: »
    I went to school with this guy's best friend. Now, I'm not close to the guy at all, but from what he's put on Facebook. He was only in Egypt visiting home, as that's his home country, he wasn't involved in any protests.

    his home country? I would have thought your home country is were you were born and raised, or indeed where you live..your home


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    #127
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,983 ✭✭✭conorhal


    wes wrote: »
    They were btw, stopped by protesters and they had to roll back any power grabs they were trying. IMHO, the protests were working and were keeping them in check.

    There was no need for a coup, but rather a stronger democracy. The MB were being frustrated in there ambitions already and were hugely unpopular. They would have probably lost another election, but instead we have the current mess.

    I'd say that by the time Morsi was ruling by presidental edict, the MB had replaced all the generals and judges with their own men (they learned well from Mubarak how to choke off democracy) the chances of that following election having candidates running for office that were anything other then a choice of MB candidates was very slim.
    wes wrote: »
    The constitution needed to be rewritten one way or another. The issue was the way he went about it, but btw there was a vote on the constitution, with only 38% (there abouts) voting and it getting over 60% in favor. Compare this to the farcical 98% the miltiary Junta has gotten (clearly it was fixed):

    Egypt referendum: '98% back new constitution'

    I would say that decades of military strong men and presidents for life, are the real cause of instability. Stifling civil society, and insuring that only the most extreme survive is the problem. Going back military strong men etc, will insure that things will always be unstable.

    The vote on the constitution was largely boycoted by pretty much everybody but the MB voters because it was just rammed through in the most authoritarian manner and showed no consideration for any POV other then an islamist one. The issue wasn't just the way Morsi went about it, but the contents that placed copts and secularists under Sharia law.

    I agree that decades of military strong men and presidents for life created a lot of the instability, but like Libya, it also created a political vaccum which meant that there was no real organized political opposition other then the Muslim Brotherhood, who had spent years building an organization on the ground that left them unopposed. That of course meant that they could steamroll over any voices of plurality or liberalism and seize total control, which they clearly intended to do. The way forward in Egypt needs to be the slow construction of a democratic state and democratic institutiuons, independent courts would be a good start. That was never going to occur under the MB. Egypt would simply have been like Russia, swapping the Tsar for a communist autocracy.
    I have more hope that aid, international pressure and the pragmatism rather then fanatisism of the military might slowly evolve into the democracy that Egypt needs, and I doubt this could have happened under Brotherhood rule


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    #128
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,983 ✭✭✭conorhal


    BetterThanThou wrote: »
    I went to school with this guy's best friend. Now, I'm not close to the guy at all, but from what he's put on Facebook. He was only in Egypt visiting home, as that's his home country, he wasn't involved in any protests.

    Except the rally he was speaking at. That story fell apart pretty quickly once footage of that came out. As did the rediculious notion that he was only 'coincidentally' caught up in occupying the Mosque with the rest of the MB that he was arrested with.
    It's that kind of disingenuous pretence of innocence that really saw any sympathy for him and his sisters evaporate.


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    #129
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    conorhal wrote: »
    Except the rally he was speaking at. That story fell apart pretty quickly once footage of that came out. As did the rediculious notion that he was only 'coincidentally' caught up in occupying the Mosque with the rest of the MB that he was arrested with.
    It's that kind of disingenuous pretence of innocence that really saw any sympathy for him and his sisters evaporate.

    Nobody is claiming he's innocent as it can't be proven.

    The issue is people saying we should "let him rot" as a 17 year old Irish citizen in a foreign country.


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    #130
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,642 ✭✭✭✭josip


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Nobody is claiming he's innocent as it can't be proven.

    The issue is people saying we should "let him rot" as a 17 year old Irish citizen in a foreign country.

    BetterThanThou was anecdotally claiming he was innocent


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    #131
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Nobody is claiming he's innocent as it can't be proven.

    The issue is people saying we should "let him rot" as a 17 year old Irish citizen in a foreign country.

    he's 18 now

    Has action been taken against his parents?


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    #132
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    I'd say that by the time Morsi was ruling by presidental edict, the MB had replaced all the generals and judges with their own men (they learned well from Mubarak how to choke off democracy) the chances of that following election having candidates running for office that were anything other then a choice of MB candidates was very slim.

    The Generals and Judges came from the Mubarak era, so they were going to replaced sooner or later. Especially when it came to the Generals, seeing as Mubarak was former military himself.

    Also, a lot of stuff Mursi tried had to be rolled back. The democratic institutions were working to frustrate what his was trying to do, and the large protests were also stopping him from getting his way.
    conorhal wrote: »
    The vote on the constitution was largely boycoted by pretty much everybody but the MB voters because it was just rammed through in the most authoritarian manner and showed no consideration for any POV other then an islamist one. The issue wasn't just the way Morsi went about it, but the contents that placed copts and secularists under Sharia law.

    The boycott was a foolish decision by the opposition. Looking at the numbers, it could have been easily defeated. There was an opportunity to show up Mursi at the ballot box and the opposition foolishly chose not to do so.

    Still, Mursi didn't fix the vote like the military have done with the current one.
    conorhal wrote: »
    I agree that decades of military strong men and presidents for life created a lot of the instability, but like Libya, it also created a political vaccum which meant that there was no real organized political opposition other then the Muslim Brotherhood, who had spent years building an organization on the ground that left them unopposed. That of course meant that they could steamroll over any voices of plurality or liberalism and seize total control, which they clearly intended to do.

    In Egypt there were being frustrated from there plan's by the rather large protests, even with the opposition screwing up.
    conorhal wrote: »
    The way forward in Egypt needs to be the slow construction of a democratic state and democratic institutiuons, independent courts would be a good start. That was never going to occur under the MB. Egypt would simply have been like Russia, swapping the Tsar for a communist autocracy.
    I have more hope that aid, international pressure and the pragmatism rather then fanatisism of the military might slowly evolve into the democracy that Egypt needs, and I doubt this could have happened under Brotherhood rule

    Except that this has never happened under the existing decades of rule by the military. They have dismantled any potential civil society, even the MB, and all you will be left with are people who won't even bother with a ballot box. There are groups far worse than the MB, and they will be the ones calling the shots now.

    The MB for there many faults, were being frustrated via the democratic process, and were shown to be largely incompetent and power hungry, and they would have been booted out sooner or later. The fact that they got as far as they did, showed how incompetent there opponents were as well imho.


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    #133
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    conorhal wrote: »
    Except the rally he was speaking at. That story fell apart pretty quickly once footage of that came out. As did the rediculious notion that he was only 'coincidentally' caught up in occupying the Mosque with the rest of the MB that he was arrested with.
    It's that kind of disingenuous pretence of innocence that really saw any sympathy for him and his sisters evaporate.

    I fail to see how speaking at a rally is a "crime"? There is no proof that he was involved in any kind of violence, and he claims that he was peacefully protesting. Seeing as he has not gotten a fair trial, there is no way to establish guilt, and as such he should be considered innocent.

    However, we do know that the military was involved in escalating the violence, as reported the world over, and by there own admission.


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    #134
    Hitchens
    Registered Users Posts: 7,975 ✭✭✭Hitchens


    wes wrote: »

    The MB for there many faults, were being frustrated via the democratic process, and were shown to be largely incompetent and power hungry, and they would have been booted out sooner or later.

    Speculative


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    #135
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    BetterThanThou wrote: »
    I went to school with this guy's best friend. Now, I'm not close to the guy at all, but from what he's put on Facebook. He was only in Egypt visiting home, as that's his home country, he wasn't involved in any protests.

    Well then,if Egypt is "his home country" they can do with him what ever they want. He can't come running to his adopted country when he dirties his bib at HOME.


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    #136
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Boombastic wrote: »
    his home country? I would have thought your home country is were you were born and raised, or indeed where you live..your home

    Do you want to hand that out in a leaflet to Irish Americans who arrive here as tourists, just so they're clear on the rules...


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    #137
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    Nodin wrote: »
    Do you want to hand that out in a leaflet to Irish Americans who arrive here as tourists, just so they're clear on the rules...

    they were as much tourists as those lads in Columbia were bird watchers


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    #138
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Boombastic wrote: »
    they were as much tourists as those lads in Columbia were bird watchers

    ....not the point I was making, actually.


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    #139
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Bambi wrote: »
    Anyone remember all this hand wringing going on when that walter mitty sap was shot while trying to organise a coup in bolivia?
    its a shame he didn't succeed

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #140
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Hitchens wrote: »
    Speculative

    True enough, the same could be said for those saying otherwise.


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    #141
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Its his country now is it? Then why was he protesting in some other country? Would have been interesting to ask him a year ago which country was his.

    So you have to be from a particular country in order to care about the injustices its people are suffering?

    If the allies had taken that view prior to WWII, a right fine mess we'd find ourselves in today :rolleyes:


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    #142
    my friend
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Can the Egyptian authorities kindly step up the executions so we no longer have to listen to Ibrahims sisters whining about Gilmore. They have some cheek

    Their brother knew what he was up to, their pleading is very annoying

    They shouldn't mistake our politeness for naïveté


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    #143
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    my friend wrote: »
    Can the Egyptian authorities kindly step up the executions so we no longer have to listen to Ibrahims sisters whining about Gilmore. They have some cheek

    Their brother knew what he was up to, their pleading is very annoying

    They shouldn't mistake our politeness for naïveté

    Or they could just like not execute him? Then they might be kind enough to shut up so as to not annoy you.

    I absolutely guarantee that you'd be squealing to Gilmore to if one of your close family members was up for execution. If I'm wrong, you probably either don't love your family members or else are devoid of empathy.


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    #144
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    I absolutely guarantee that you'd be squealing to Gilmore to if one of your close family members was up for execution.

    Especially considering the type of decisions that the Egyptian court has taken recently. Sentencing 720 people to death in a single (and very rushed) court case could never be considered justice.


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    #145
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,642 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Knasher wrote: »
    Especially considering the type of decisions that the Egyptian court has taken recently. Sentencing 720 people to death in a single (and very rushed) court case could never be considered justice.

    I think it's called summary justice.


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    #146
    HavelTheRock
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭HavelTheRock


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    So you have to be from a particular country in order to care about the injustices its people are suffering?

    If the allies had taken that view prior to WWII, a right fine mess we'd find ourselves in today :rolleyes:

    You must not know too much about WWII because the Allies didn't go to war until it became their problem, they ignored a lot of Hitler's moves and only went into action when they realized Hitler's rise to power threatened their own countries.

    America refused to even join the war until Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.


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    #147
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    His trial has been postponed again until January 6th.
    The trial of Irish teenager Ibrahim Halawa in Cairo has been postponed until 6 January.

    The 18-year-old was due in court today to face charges linked to a military crackdown on protests in the city in August 2013.

    He was one of 494 people arrested after demonstrations at Cairo's Al-Fath mosque following the ousting of former Egyptian president Mohammed Mursi last year.

    Mr Halawa has been in prison for 450 days.

    Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, his sister Somaia said she feared Mr Halawa could face a death sentence.

    She said her mother was in Cairo today, but she was not allowed inside the courtroom.

    Somaia Halawa said: "It's so hard to describe what we are going through and what we are feeling.

    "The charges are one standard and are given to everyone. So those who have been sentenced to death are very close to Ibrahim's charges."

    Mr Halawa appeared in court in Cairo in August, however proceedings were postponed after the judge in the trial walked out, saying he refused to continue.

    He cited "unease" at the nature of the mass proceedings.

    Amnesty International has said it does not believe that Mr Halawa or the other defendants can receive a fair trial in Egypt "under the current circumstances".

    Colm O'Gorman, Executive Director of Amnesty International Ireland, said that it "will continue the campaign for his freedom until he is safe and well at home in Ireland".

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1201/663789-halawa-ibrahim/

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/cairo-trial-of-irish-teen-ibrahim-halawa-postponed-until-january-1.2021478


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    #148
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Get the IRA to blow up the Docklands in Egypt. That will have him free in no time.


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    #149
    Sonderkommando
    Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭Sonderkommando


    Absolutely no sympathy for him at all. I don't wish for him to be executed but truly hope he never sets a foot in this country again.


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    #150
    Calibos
    Registered Users Posts: 7,796 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Are you mixing this story up with some Lad going off to fight for ISIS?? Why shouldn't he set foot in the country again. Thats like saying I shouldn't be allowed back in the country again if I was arrested by Thai police while on holiday in Thailand after I got mixed up in human rights protests or something.


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    #151
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    Calibos wrote: »
    Are you mixing this story up with some Lad going off to fight for ISIS?? Why shouldn't he set foot in the country again. Thats like saying I shouldn't be allowed back in the country again if I was arrested by Thai police while on holiday in Thailand after I got mixed up in human rights protests or something.

    He and his sisters have said that they were holidaying, shopping, but there were warnings about tourists staying away from areas of unrest. They were not innocently caught up in anything. They were posting on Facebook for weeks beforehand about it. They were actively involved and claiming now that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't agree with him being imprisoned this long without trial or being executed but they need to take some responsibility for their actions. They considered themselves Egyptian until they realised that the Irish government are far more likely to get them out of the mess that they wholeheartedly walked into.


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