Irish Teen Fears Execution in Egypt

Knasher

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

But Ireland is a signatory. Ergo, for all intents of purposes he will be treated as an Egyptian citizen. Other than ensuring that he's being humanely treated, I think that there is little the state can do.

That isn't technically true. Ireland is a signatory to that treaty, but being a signatory doesn't actually make a treaty binding, it simply indicates an intention to ratify it at some point in the future.

According to http://eudo-citizenship.eu/databases/international-legal-norms/?search=1&stype=2&country=Ireland we haven't actually ratified this, ergo it isn't binding.

wes

denhaagenite wrote: »

They would not be speaking at a protest on behalf of the Muslim Brotherhood if they were not members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Protests don't usually have anyone jumping up on the podium to speak. You'd want to have some clout to be afforded the podium. They were part of the organisation, not poor tourists that accidentally got locked in a mosque.

No one said they were't part of the protests, but again speaking at protest doesn't equal spear heading it, and I have no idea whether they are member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Again, I fail to see what is wrong with protesting exactly?

denhaagenite wrote: »

It was on their Facebook pages before they left to go to Egypt that this was their intention.

I have the exact opposite.

denhaagenite wrote: »

Pro Muslim Brotherhood protests. Hardly as Irish as soda bread, and I don't believe that a protest in favour of a Muslim society could be argued democratic.

The democratically elected governmenet were removed by a military junta and not free and fair elections. So yeah, they were protesting for democracy, as they were protesting against the military junta.

Putinovsky

Jawgap wrote: »

BTW, if people want to protest, why not protest the homelessness crisis, the HSE, child poverty, educational disadvantage......right here.

Different people will feel connected to different issues. The teens in question were witnesses to horrible human rights abuses and this obviously affected them.

RobYourBuilder

wes wrote: »

Then, maybe don't trot stuff like that on a internet message board if you don't want to get into arguments then......



Well, if we are going to talk about legality, then I am pretty sure a military junta is completely illegal........

Once he entered Egypt, his Irish citizenship became irrelevant. Simple as. Hes an Egyptian citizen locked up in an Egyptian jail. It's not our problem.

The Irish state has already went above and beyond in trying to help him.

In a bold diplomatic move, the Irish ambassador to Egypt, Isolde Moylan, flanked by a number of consular staff from the Irish Embassy in Egypt and members of the EU delegation in Cairo, are set to attend the court hearing.

This unprecedented show of high-level support is believed to be a tactical, yet subtle, flexing of diplomatic muscle intended to put pressure on the Egyptian authorities to release Ibrahim.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/diplomatic-team-to-attend-jailed-teenagers-cairo-trial-30427033.html#sthash.ZpV6EvaX.dpuf

Halawa has been visited 19 times by consular staff 

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/trial-in-cairo-of-irish-national-ibrahim-halawa-postponed-until-august-1.1867527

If they didn't attend the Muslim Brotherhood rally and instead took up the Irish consulates offer of transport out of Egypt, then they wouldn't be in this predicament today. A rally where the Halawas proudly declared that they are "Egyptians from outside".

Now they are trying to wrap themselves in the green. Laughable.

wes

Jawgap wrote: »

BTW, if people want to protest, why not protest the homelessness crisis, the HSE, child poverty, educational disadvantage......right here.

I may as well ask, why are even commenting on this thread, when you could just as easily comment on the HSE, child poverty, etc as well, and it would make about as much sense.

denhaagenite

wes wrote: »

Now, it would far more accurate to say he is in prison for protesting, and is also an Irish citizen, and not as you put it "He's home in Egypt. ".

Have to counter this also. He described himself as being an Egyptian outside. I consider him Irish but he considers himself Egyptian. So that is what the poster meant.

wes

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

If they didn't attend the Muslim Brotherhood rally and instead took up the Irish consulates offer of transport out of Egypt, then they wouldn't be in this predicament today. A rally where the Halawas proudly declared that they are "Egyptians from outside".

They are dual citizens, so I fail to see how that statement some how justifies any of this, and its certainly good to see our government doing what they can to help, but again I really do fail to see why so many people seem to be against them.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Now they are trying to wrap themselves in the green. Laughable.

How dare, they state that they are Egyptian being dual nationals and all. Laughable for you to somehow take issue with this.

Jawgap

Putinovsky wrote: »

Different people will feel connected to different issues. The teens in question were witnesses to horrible human rights abuses and this obviously affected them.

Fair enough - but they chose to go, they chose to stay when they could've come out - as I said they wanted to make a point, they're making it.

If they wanted to help the people in Egypt why not stay here and fund raise, then channel the money towards community projects there?

Putinovsky

Jawgap wrote: »

You strike me as the equivalent of a politician who sends soldiers off to war but won't go themselves.....

I have spent my hard earned money to travel with fellow Irish and to protest against human rights abuses in Israel.

.......and I don't mind adults making decisions to go protest, but teens?? You advocate sending teens to protest authoritarianism?

They were visiting relatives. The protests hadn't even started when they arrived.

.....and you've no idea about me. I've spent nearly half my working life in the service of the State helping real people solve real everyday problems, not to mention the voluntary work I do now. And, yes I've done my protesting.

And yet you display a disgustingly cold attitude to an Irish teen who faces the death penalty for protesting for democracy, what a great attitude you have.

wes

denhaagenite wrote: »

Have to counter this also. He described himself as being an Egyptian outside. I consider him Irish but he considers himself Egyptian. So that is what the poster meant.

He can consider himself both, seeing he is a Egyptian national as well, as seeing as he was at a protest in Egypt they would clearly talk that up. Again, all we have is an example of someone of dual citizenship saying as such.

Putinovsky

Jawgap wrote: »

Fair enough - but they chose to go, they chose to stay when they could've come out - as I said they wanted to make a point, they're making it.

If they wanted to help the people in Egypt why not stay here and fund raise, then channel the money towards community projects there?

They have already stated that they stayed in the mosque because they and other non-nationals to Egypt felt that the army would storm and kill everyone inside once the foreigners had vacated. I absolutely commend them for being so brave and flying our countries flag so honourably.

I believe they were in Egypt when the protests were happening and took to the streets. Once again the courage they showed was tremendous.

Like I've said, an absolute credit to our little island. Makes me proud to share the island with such brave, young people.

Putinovsky

denhaagenite wrote: »

Have to counter this also. He described himself as being an Egyptian outside. I consider him Irish but he considers himself Egyptian. So that is what the poster meant.

That is complete and utter bollix. I know people close to the family. He tells people he's Irish and considers himself Egyptian-Irish (an Irish national of Egyptian heritage). Always has done.

Jawgap

Putinovsky wrote: »

I have spent my hard earned money to travel with fellow Irish and to protest against human rights abuses in Israel.




They were visiting relatives. The protests hadn't even started when they arrived.



And yet you display a disgustingly cold attitude to an Irish teen who faces the death penalty for protesting for democracy, what a great attitude you have.

Ah yes, I'd be willing to guess what you protested against in Israel - and it wasn't the same thing I protested here.

I hope he gets out, soon and is home with his family - my objection is to way the narrative of what happened is being corrupted. It takes the rest of us for mugs and that's annoying.

Putinovsky

Jawgap wrote: »

Ah yes, I'd be willing to guess what you protested against in Israel - and it wasn't the same thing I protested here.

I hope he gets out, soon and is home with his family - my objection is to way the narrative of what happened is being corrupted. It takes the rest of us for mugs and that's annoying.

The only disgusting narrative is the one trying to paint them as trouble-making islamists who are leeches on the country and not *really* Irish because of their skin colour.

And there are massive undertones of that in a lot of posts.

Jawgap

Putinovsky wrote: »

The only disgusting narrative is the one trying to paint them as trouble-making islamists who are leeches on the country and not *really* Irish because of their skin colour.

And there are massive undertones of that in a lot of posts.

.....and where did say any of that?

Putinovsky

Jawgap wrote: »

.....and where did say any of that?

I didn't single out you personally. I would have to review your posts to see if that was present and I don't really want to do that.

Considering your response just now its obvious you don't think they were trouble makers, or islamists and agree they are as Irish as you and me and that's good enough for me.

denhaagenite

Putinovsky wrote: »

The only disgusting narrative is the one trying to paint them as trouble-making islamists who are leeches on the country and not *really* Irish because of their skin colour.

And there are massive undertones of that in a lot of posts.

Nope, I don't care what their ethnicity is and I think there are very few here that do. People are annoyed that they are pretending that they had no idea of the protests and were in no way involved. It's not true and I would have a lot more respect for them if they would just come out and say that. It would entitle them no less to Irish citizenship. Fact is, they went in knowing exactly the consequences that they were leaving themselves open to.

Nodin

denhaagenite wrote: »

Nope, I don't care what their ethnicity is and I think there are very few here that do. People are annoyed that they are pretending that they had no idea of the protests and were in no way involved. It's not true and I would have a lot more respect for them if they would just come out and say that. It would entitle them no less to Irish citizenship. Fact is, they went in knowing exactly the consequences that they were leaving themselves open to.

As already pointed out, they went to Egypt before the protests started and before any travel warnings were issued.

Jawgap

Putinovsky wrote: »

I didn't single out you personally. I would have to review your posts to see if that was present and I don't really want to do that.

Considering your response just now its obvious you don't think they were trouble makers, or islamists and agree they are as Irish as you and me and that's good enough for me.

I don't think they were agitators or Islamicists - misguided perhaps and certainly stupid for not getting out when they could - but again, if they want to garner public support they'd do better to be more honest about why they were there and what their intentions were.

denhaagenite

Nodin wrote: »

As already pointed out, they went to Egypt before the protests started and before any travel warnings were issued.

How many times do I have to reiterate, they were aware that there was unrest and travelled with full intent on joining it when they got to Egypt. There is really no point in me linking to their Facebook pages now as it was 7/ 8 months ago, but his sisters were constantly posting about it. Posted about nothing else except their "activism" if memory serves me correctly.

Calibos

When the Arab Spring started, I immediately thought to myself that the people themselves will live to regret it never mind the west if they get involved. If the Iranian revolution was anything to go by at any rate. Yes, Iran and all these Arab countries had nasty torturing dictatorial regimes, Yes, the popular revolutions were moral and had right on their side. Unfortunately as in the case of Iran in the 70's, these popular student revolutions in the islamic world are always hijacked by the ultra violent religious fundamentalists and the countries end up in a worse state with the moderates involved in the initial protests realising that as bad as the Shah, Saddam, Mubarrak and Bashir etc regimes were, they are a hell of a lot worse under the islamists who always take over after the revolution.

A few weeks ago Britain talked about banning the return of any of their citizens who travelled to Syria and became combatants. The legislation was primarily aimed at those who joined ISIS. However there are hundreds of British combatants who just like the moderate arab spring revolutionaries I mentioned earlier have realised their mistake. They went to fight Bashir and found themselves not fighting Syrian Bashir forces but inter rebel fighting and/or horrified by the realities of what a lot of the islamist rebel groups were actually doing. ie. Realising they might even be on the wrong side in this.

I might still support Britain's stance on this and think its not worth the risk letting any of the fighters back in because it would be impossible to be sure you were only letting back in the disillusioned anti bashir moderate fighters and not any bat**** crazy ISIS members. However I could still find some sympathy in my heart for them believe it or not.

To my mind though this Irish Egyptian lad is a totally different kettle of fish. He was only involved in some protests FFS. Even if he travelled out there specifically to protest and not simply been caught up in unfolding events after he arrived. Like I said, all the arab spring movements/revolutions were moral, they were just naive to think that the islamists wouldn't take over. I won't condemn him for naivete especially as hes only 17. I'd condemn him if he had joined the likes of ISIS alright. But not only was he not a fighter in an ISIS like group, he wasn't a fighter in a moderate rebel group, he wasn't a fighter at all, he was involved in some street protests in a popular revolution that had 'Right' on its side (No matter how naive they were) .

I'd have zero concern about letting him back into the country.

Using the troubles as an example. If a Dublin lad was in the maze in the north after being involved in a bombing, I'd have said, let him rot up there. If a Dublin lad while visiting family up there had been arrested and imprisoned after marching in an SDLP civil-rights march, I'd want him released and have no problem him coming back. Saying this Irish Egyptian lad should never be allowed back is akin to saying you would not let the Dublin SDLP civil-rights marcher back as if he was an IRA bomber or something?

Karl Stein

denhaagenite wrote: »

Fact is, they went in knowing exactly the consequences that they were leaving themselves open to.

Even if we pretend this is true; so what?

Putinovsky

denhaagenite wrote: »

How many times do I have to reiterate, they were aware that there was unrest and travelled with full intent on joining it when they got to Egypt. There is really no point in me linking to their Facebook pages now as it was 7/ 8 months ago, but his sisters were constantly posting about it. Posted about nothing else except their "activism" if memory serves me correctly.

They go to Egypt every year. They were there long before any protests happened. Plenty of Irish people continued travelling back and forth to the tourist coastal regions in Egypt during this period.

denhaagenite

Karl Stein wrote: »

Even if we pretend this is true; so what?

So don't lie about it and treat us all like total morons. That was the point of the argument, should you care to have read it.

denhaagenite

Putinovsky wrote: »

They go to Egypt every year. They were there long before any protests happened. Plenty of Irish people continued travelling back and forth to the tourist coastal regions in Egypt during this period.

I never said they didn't. I'm just saying that on this occasion, they were not simply going out shopping as is the line they are using. Their own social media documented their intentions when they got to Egypt. It's not a suspicion, it's a fact.

Karl Stein

denhaagenite wrote: »

So don't lie about it

Who says they were lying?

Calibos

denhaagenite wrote: »

I never said they didn't. I'm just saying that on this occasion, they were not simply going out shopping as is the line they are using. Their own social media documented their intentions when they got to Egypt. It's not a suspicion, it's a fact.

Even if thats the case, so Fcuking what??? So what if they went out with the intentions to protest against a horrible regime??

Galwayguy35

Well if they consider themselves Irish maybe stick to protesting about issues in this country, after all their parents came over here and looked for citizenship so that would suggest they wanted to get out of Egypt.

Speaking at a Muslin Brotherhood protest seems a bit strange, not a great crowd to be associated with.

Nodin

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well if they consider themselves Irish maybe stick to protesting about issues in this country, after all their parents came over here and looked for citizenship so that would suggest they wanted to get out of Egypt.

..............

Does that mean that no Irish person can comment or protest about Sudan, Iran, Russia, Palestine, West Papua, Whaling or any other issue outside the borders, or does this just apply to people born abroad?

Karl Stein

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well if they consider themselves Irish maybe stick to protesting about issues in this country

Why? Should that apply to Irish people of British or Polish heritage too?