Work Related Suicide

pharmaton

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I'm the sweetest guy going tbh, I like to be a gentleman for as long as is possible. There just has to be that little slivver of ice that makes people mind their manners. Bullies get away with it because they get away with it. If you just simply refuse to let them get away with it, they stop. I'm not advocating hitting them, just pull them up verbally if that's your style. But if people keep on taking guff "because that's the way Mr Mike the manager goes on and sure isn't he under pressure these days.." then Mr Mike will continue being a douche nozzle and making peoples lives a misery. Well, you ain't making my life a misery old fruit, that's for sure. Bear in mind the title of this thread. We're not discussing someone having a one-off bit of banter here.

well if by throat punching someone you mean being assertive and standing up to a bully, grand. Otherwise, the reason why people get to the point of suicidal ideation is because the laws of society prevent them from actually throat punching their harasser.
By all means, tell your boss to fcuk off if he's being a dick. If you get to keep your job and he never bothers you again, great.

IrishEyes19

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

what about the man who owns the business

waking up at four in the morning worrying over the bank and the revenue

you never see this as an employee

you get laid off you can walk in and get 188 a week

what does he get?

this is completely irrelevant to the point though, if employers were treating their staff right, staff would only be too happy to work in a safe environment. No amount of stress allows for mental abuse.

ilovebiology

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

this is completely irrelevant to the point though, if employers were treating their staff right, staff would only be too happy to work in a safe environment. No amount of stress allows for mental abuse.

I agree with you 100% here. Employers have to follow the law, and if the law isn't followed, well then take them to court. No one in this day and age should be forced to put up with such reprehensible actions from an employer, and no one should be forced out of their job, which was exactly why I went off to the High Court.

Stavros Murphy

pharmaton wrote: »

well if by throat punching someone you mean being assertive and standing up to a bully, grand. Otherwise, the reason why people get to the point of suicidal ideation is because the laws of society prevent them from actually throat punching their harasser.
By all means, tell your boss to fcuk off if he's being a dick. If you get to keep your job and he never bothers you again, great.

If someone's being a dick, the lads I'm with usually kinda do the foot shuffle as they know I just won't stand for it. Like I said, be polite, it costs nothing. Roaring and shouting will land you on your a55, simple as. It's not very PC, but I have a full head of hair and sleep good at night. I'm getting better at just smiling and walking away, but I put that down to old age and mellowing, but I 100% walk away and never back again. And fcuk the consequences. I'd rather eat grass than listen to shyte.

ilovebiology

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

If someone's being a dick, the lads I'm with usually kinda do the foot shuffle as they know I just won't stand for it. Like I said, be polite, it costs nothing. Roaring and shouting will land you on your a55, simple as. It's not very PC, but I have a full head of hair and sleep good at night. I'm getting better at just smiling and walking away, but I put that down to old age and mellowing, but I 100% walk away and never back again. And fcuk the consequences.

Just to let you all know, even in an employment situation, if someone you are working with, or even a manager is abusing or intimidating you, you can go to the guards. The guards can have them arrested, and forward the case onto the DPP for prosecution in the courts.

If an employer see's you doing this, or if you even mention this to them, by god they will back off.

It's an excellent tool to use to keep your job, work in your job free of any sort of abuse, and get them prosecuted, and you can do it all for free, as the DPP does it for you, the government/guards pay all your legal costs.


I will also add an important point for all of you who may have trouble with an idiot colleague, or a manager at work. Should you leave your job, or even stay in your job, to go to the guards, and for the guards to have the perpetrators arrested, and onto the DPP, there is NO time limit on you pursuing or initiating this. In other words, there is no statute of limitations on the guards taking on a harassment case for you. So, if you were harassed 10 years ago at work, you can still go into the guards (As long as you have strong evidence/witnesses) and start the process. It can give you peace, help you heal, and see some justice done for how wrongly you were treated.

delthedriver

ilovebiology wrote: »

This is my story I shared here a while ago -

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056959994


It turns out I am not the only one. Its a little old but a survey shows the extent of this very serious silent epidemic that is a huge contribution to suicides in Ireland, and is and has increased over the past few years.

http://www.headline.ie/news/headline/2008/oct/21/workplace-bullying-link-25-suicides/

http://www.buseco.monash.edu.au/mgt/research/working-papers/2008/wp10-08.pdf

Thank you for posting your work story. Well done on fighting back. It takes a lot of guts.
Outrageous behaviour on part of employer. How long did it take to get to The High Court.? The pressure on you must have been horrendous.

I have looked at the other two documents on bullying in the workplace. Interestingly they were produced in 2008. What has happened since? Have employers taken this on Board.

It is shocking to learn that 25 per cent of suicides are work related!

ilovebiology

delthedriver wrote: »

Thank you for posting your work story. Well done on fighting back. It takes a lot of guts.
Outrageous behaviour on part of employer. How long did it take to get to The High Court.? The pressure on you must have been horrendous.

I have looked at the other two documents on bullying in the workplace. Interestingly they were produced in 2008. What has happened since? Have employers taken this on Board.

It is shocking to learn that 25 per cent of suicides are work related!

For legal reasons I can't say how long it took to get sorted out, but yes it was horrendous. The law was on my side, and I used it all the time, and beat them.

I think in one of those reports it says that in 2008 or 2009, 300 or 400 people committed suicide in Ireland because of work related problems. It needs to be raised by the government, its a huge problem, and I believe the figure for suicides in this matter has continued to rise since then, which is very sad.

It is fantastic that depression, and suicides are being so openly spoken about in Ireland, and in the media at present. It is really wonderful. However, people in the media are not discussing WHY people are taking their own lives, and work related problems is a huge factor, and percentage of the people who have died, because of ruthless murdering employers.

delthedriver

We live in interesting times.

Over the last few years. Bullying has been raised as an issue both in schools and via the internet.

Many people in public life have highlighted the issue, as a result there is greater public awareness of the issue.

Similarly suicide , depression are subjects which are openly discussed and there is greater awareness and understanding.

Bullying in the workplace which may account for 25 per cent of work related suicide does not get attention. Dr O'Moore of TCD has produced her report and findings on yet her evidence is obviously being ignored as suicide is a very hot issue.

One appreciates the economic downturn since 2008, but this should not be an excuse for what is criminal activity. Ie bullying.

Surely this issue should be getting the same attention as bullying in schools.

Imposing Fines on a large corporation for bullying is chicken feed, responsibility lies with The MD and Directors. Perhaps a little time behind bars may give them time to come up with a new corporate culture where bullying will not be tolerated at any level.

Absolutely no employee deserves to be bullied to the point where they take their own life as a result. It is outrageous that a Company would then suggest that the deceased person had personal problems outside work.

What are the Health And Safety Authority doing about this?
Sure they are quick to turn up on a building site for an inspection of safety procedures and equipment. However should they also be looking at other businesses too.?

pharmaton

delthedriver wrote: »

What are the Health And Safety Authority doing about this?
Sure they are quick to turn up on a building site for an inspection of safety procedures and equipment. However should they also be looking at other businesses too.?

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Bullying_at_Work/

ilovebiology

delthedriver wrote: »

We live in interesting times.

Over the last few years. Bullying has been raised as an issue both in schools and via the internet.

Many people in public life have highlighted the issue, as a result there is greater public awareness of the issue.

Similarly suicide , depression are subjects which are openly discussed and there is greater awareness and understanding.

Bullying in the workplace which may account for 25 per cent of work related suicide does not get attention. Dr O'Moore of TCD has produced her report and findings on yet her evidence is obviously being ignored as suicide is a very hot issue.

One appreciates the economic downturn since 2008, but this should not be an excuse for what is criminal activity. Ie bullying.

Surely this issue should be getting the same attention as bullying in schools.

Imposing Fines on a large corporation for bullying is chicken feed, responsibility lies with The MD and Directors. Perhaps a little time behind bars may give them time to come up with a new corporate culture where bullying will not be tolerated at any level.

Absolutely no employee deserves to be bullied to the point where they take their own life as a result. It is outrageous that a Company would then suggest that the deceased person had personal problems outside work.

What are the Health And Safety Authority doing about this?
Sure they are quick to turn up on a building site for an inspection of safety procedures and equipment. However should they also be looking at other businesses too.?

Safety of equipment is one thing, but bullying and harassment to the pint of almost pushing someone to suicide is in my opinion a very serious violent assault on someone, but not just on that person, but on their family, relationships, social life, everything.

Bullying and intimidation IS a criminal offence. Many many irish people are not aware that in a work situation, you can have sorted by going to the guards. The guards will spend some time looking into it, and within a month or two have the perpetrators arrested. Once the employer knows you are intending on doing this, or the guards have contacted them, the employer, or the bullies will back off, as they will be too afraid of you, and the guards if they don't!

I went all the way to the High Court with my employer, and it took time, but going down the criminal route as I have outlined here is faster than getting to the High Court!

I also wish to state that you can pursue both avenues at the SAME TIME. You are free to start a High Court case if you suffered with severe depression, psychological problems, and any sort of injury to you or your health because of the actions of your employer. At the same time, you can go to the guards, and start a criminal case - a harassment case against them too.

Knowing both these options is important for anyone to know as a means of keeping your sanity, and could even save your life.

The basis for doing all of this is knowing the law, and your entitlements at work, that helps alot, but these avenues above are a VERY powerful weapon against any terrible employer.

I feel people need to know this, and knowing what to do can save you, your health, and your life, and it could certainly save alot of people from what I went through, as at the time I didn't know any of this, as it isn't very commonly known amongst people.

I hope this can help someone, and their life, just knowing this.

ilovebiology

pharmaton wrote: »

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Bullying_at_Work/

This is helpful, but they fail to mention you can go to the guards straight away if you are being intimdated or abused in anyway at work to the point where it is effecting your health and/or pushing you to suicide.

delthedriver

ilovebiology wrote: »

Safety of equipment is one thing, but bullying and harassment to the pint of almost pushing someone to suicide is in my opinion a very serious violent assault on someone, but not just on that person, but on their family, relationships, social life, everything.

Bullying and intimidation IS a criminal offence. Many many irish people are not aware that in a work situation, you can have sorted by going to the guards. The guards will spend some time looking into it, and within a month or two have the perpetrators arrested. Once the employer knows you are intending on doing this, or the guards have contacted them, the employer, or the bullies will back off, as they will be too afraid of you, and the guards if they don't!

I went all the way to the High Court with my employer, and it took time, but going down the criminal route as I have outlined here is faster than getting to the High Court!

I also wish to state that you can pursue both avenues at the SAME TIME. You are free to start a High Court case if you suffered with severe depression, psychological problems, and any sort of injury to you or your health because of the actions of your employer. At the same time, you can go to the guards, and start a criminal case - a harassment case against them too.

Knowing both these options is important for anyone to know as a means of keeping your sanity, and could even save your life.

The basis for doing all of this is knowing the law, and your entitlements at work, that helps alot, but these avenues above are a VERY powerful weapon against any terrible employer.

I feel people need to know this, and knowing what to do can save you, your health, and your life, and it could certainly save alot of people from what I went through, as at the time I didn't know any of this, as it isn't very commonly known amongst people.

I hope this can help someone, and their life, just knowing this.

Thank you for your post. I am sure this May help people change their mind on how to deal with a Bullying Employer.

Some of these psychopaths need to be taken to task over the way they treat their staff.

How can the issue of bullying in the workplace be raised in the same way as bullying in school?

ilovebiology

delthedriver wrote: »

Thank you for your post. I am sure this May help people change their mind on how to deal with a Bullying Employer.

Some of these psychopaths need to be taken to task over the way they treat their staff.

How can the issue of bullying in the workplace be raised in the same way as bullying in school?

Alarming statistics like I have shown are increasing, and organisations who comprise these statistics and facts need to be doing ALOT more about this silent epidemic that is contributing to so many suicides in Ireland, all because of a terrible colleague, or manager. These organisations need to be bringing this to the attention of politicians/the government - I think there is a Minister for Mental Health too, as far as I know? What are these people doing? They need to do more, to save more people from suicide, and have employers jailed.

I have also found HR Departments to be absolutely useless, and if they do not deal with an employee's complaints of harassment, the individuals in HR should be held criminally negligible - as in High Court proceedings, or by the DPP in a criminal court.

I used the law very well with my case, but I have seen loopholes there too, and there are aspects in employment law that need to become very strict laws, and not just recommendations.

I hope it can help someone, as no one deserves to be treated in such a horrifying manner when all they want to do is do their job, and provide for their family.

The guards can have them arrested. The case would then be processed by the DPP, and be forwarded onto one of the criminal courts. The employer can then be either fined, or the bullies individually held accountable and jailed.

I am not 100% certain about this one, but I believe that if the bullies can have criminal records too, but a guard could tell you this to be 100% sure.

Jail is where all bullies belong.

delthedriver

ilovebiology wrote: »

Alarming statistics like I have shown are increasing, and organisations who comprise these statistics and facts need to be doing ALOT more about this silent epidemic that is contributing to so many suicides in Ireland, all because of a terrible colleague, or manager. These organisations need to be bringing this to the attention of politicians/the government - I think there is a Minister for Mental Health too, as far as I know? What are these people doing? They need to do more, to save more people from suicide, and have employers jailed.

I used the law very well with my case, but I have seen loopholes there too, and there are aspects in employment law that need to become very strict laws, and not just recommendations.

I hope it can help someone, as no one deserves to be treated in such a horrifying manner when all they want to do is do their job, and provide for their family.

The guards can have them arrested. The case would then be processed by the DPP, and be forwarded onto one of the criminal courts. The employer can then be either fined, or the bullies individually held accountable and jailed.

I am not 100% certain about this one, but I believe that if the bullies can have criminal records too, but a guard could tell you this to be 100% sure.

Jail is where all bullies belong.

Perhaps it would be no harm for people to lobby their TD to get the issue raised in the Dail. This way the item gets public attention and the relevant Government Bodies get themselves in gear.

25per cent of Suicides in Ireland are work related. That statistic is shocking , and it is too many unnecessary deaths.

pharmaton

ilovebiology wrote: »

This is helpful, but they fail to mention you can go to the guards straight away if you are being intimdated or abused in anyway at work to the point where it is effecting your health and/or pushing you to suicide.

I can only imagine that what you went through must have been horrific.
It helps to know though there are preventative measures in place and procedures that can be followed as laid out by Health and Safety too.
Sometimes it can be difficult confiding in others or finding someone to talk to. Some people don't want to make a fuss, especially if their self esteem has been affected, they might feel safer if they just keep their head down and carry on.
Talking to a counselor or therapist can help and while everything that is discussed there is private and confidential, in a court of law it can be requested as evidence.
More importantly it is an effective way of treating the issues that have resulted from the situation and offers possible ways of combating further instances in the long run.

delthedriver

pharmaton wrote: »

I can only imagine that what you went through must have been horrific.
It helps to know though there are preventative measures in place and procedures that can be followed as laid out by Health and Safety too.
Sometimes it can be difficult confiding in others or finding someone to talk to. Some people don't want to make a fuss, especially if their self esteem has been affected, they might feel safer if they just keep their head down and carry on.
Talking to a counselor or therapist can help and while everything that is discussed there is private and confidential, in a court of law it can be requested as evidence.
More importantly it is an effective way of treating the issues that have resulted from the situation and offers possible ways of combating further instances in the long run.

Well done!

Anyone embarking on a path of legal action absolutely must consult a Lawyer specialising in Employment Law.

Absolutely no point in going to X Smyth & Assocs, who specialise in the odd bit of conveyancing and wills.

ilovebiology

pharmaton wrote: »

I can only imagine that what you went through must have been horrific.
It helps to know though there are preventative measures in place and procedures that can be followed as laid out by Health and Safety too.
Sometimes it can be difficult confiding in others or finding someone to talk to. Some people don't want to make a fuss, especially if their self esteem has been affected, they might feel safer if they just keep their head down and carry on.
Talking to a counselor or therapist can help and while everything that is discussed there is private and confidential, in a court of law it can be requested as evidence.
More importantly it is an effective way of treating the issues that have resulted from the situation and offers possible ways of combating further instances in the long run.

Yes Discovery can be got from the other side about how badly your health was effected by the bullying/harassment, and how your health was badly effected to the point of suicide.

I agree with everything you say here, and you are correct. Therapy helped me, but when the bullying continues, it is very very difficult.

Look at it this way, if you go to the guards, they will let you know if you have a good case for prosecution. Even to pay a visit to an criminal solicitor to be certain of your case, will give you further confidence should you decide to go down the criminal route.

The guards can have the case looked into within a month or so, and then go to your employer and have them arrested. If they know you are starting criminal prosecution, they will back off, and there is no way they will cause you further harm or harassment as you are already taking them to court for that, and that will only fuel your own fire!

On top of that, should they decide to fire you (Highly unlikely) given the trouble they would already be in with the guards/DPP you can take them for Unfair Dismissal. If you have suffered any severe injuries as I have stated above, the Unfair Dismissal case, and your Personal Injury case can be all put together for a very strong High Court case.

The more you have against an employer, the stronger you are protecting yourself and your health, and the employer will back off and leave you alone. If you have started criminal proceedings, and you tell them you are starting a High Court case against them too, there is no way they would touch you.

The law is powerful, and the best weapon, and means of protecting you, your health, and allowing you to stay in your job free of harassment, if you know how to use the law. If you can see it from that point of view, you have alot of power against your employer in your hands.

However, it is up to each and every individual in their own situation, and whatever one decides to do is their decision, and respected in each instance. I can completely understand why someone would leave their job in circumstances where they are under so much pressure they are on the brink of suicide, however, the above information I hope can help someone too

ilovebiology

For anyone who is harassed, intimidated, bullied at work, this is the following legislation that can protect you from it. It is what the guards use, and is then followed through by the DPP, as I have explained above. You can have a look at the section on Harassment, Assault, Assault causing harm, Causing serious harm, or possibly coercion - depending on each individual situation a person may be in.

They are only small sections, and easy to understand, and not "Law" lanuage!

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0026/


Have a look, if you so wish.

LynnGrace

pharmaton wrote: »

Polite has little to do with it, an ego maniacal boss or co-worker isn't going to care about your personal demeanor when they're on a mission.

I'm lucky in that I've never had to work for a bad boss, I don't remember one who made life difficult for me personally (there was one not so great but they were done for embezzlement at a later stage) and usually had a good relationship with them, a few even became personal friends. On the flip side, I've worked with some difficult people but I think once you have an understanding of the politics of the game of bullying at work it becomes much easier to overcome it.

I'd recommend counselling to those experiencing bullying at work, it's vital to have a safe space to communicate and express your emotions, and it will get you to a place where you can make it better.

Totally agree. Unfortunately, I know also a case of work related suicide. There were no voices raised in that workplace. Bullying can be insidious, done with politeness, and a smile on the bully's face, nothing can be proven. Sad, but true, in my opinion.

ilovebiology

LynnGrace wrote: »

Totally agree. Unfortunately, I know also a case of work related suicide. There were no voices raised in that workplace. Bullying can be insidious, done with politeness, and a smile on the bully's face, nothing can be proven. Sad, but true, in my opinion.

Another case of work related suicide, it just goes to show how much of a very serious silent epidemic it is in this country, that so badly needs to be raised and addressed.

They deserve to be put before a criminal court, and in jail where they belong.

pharmaton

LynnGrace wrote: »

Totally agree. Unfortunately, I know also a case of work related suicide. There were no voices raised in that workplace. Bullying can be insidious, done with politeness, and a smile on the bully's face, nothing can be proven. Sad, but true, in my opinion.

that's been my experience too.

pharmaton

just my own two cents, after my last job I ended up having counseling after enduring a year in a toxic work environment. It was only a temporary position so fortunately I had an out at the end of it all and while I felt relief that I was able to walk away, I knew that it had left me in a weaker position to go back into the workforce. I had opted out of society by taking low level jobs where I didn't have to work with other people in order to avoid ever dealing with confrontation. I got to the point where I was no longer verbally communicating.
I had been good at my job, that was the problem. It was never an issue for my bosses or superiors but stemmed from colleagues and co workers. It was all very subtle, insidious stuff, nothing that you could hold up objectively or confront without making things worse. That's exactly what they want you to do.

I decided after counseling it was time to get back up on the horse and signed up for a year long course, in an environment which I knew would be a challenge for me. It was going to be me facing my fears, putting into practice all the things I had learned and growing confidence in my abilities and myself.

I'm about six months in and every aspect that drove me to feel suicidal in my last job has thrown itself at me. There have been times when I wondered if it was all worth it but the fact that I'm still here is an achievement in itself and I'm healing the wounds that were inflicted last time round.


I think Irish companies are not as equipped to deal with bullying as a work place issue (multinationals I have worked for are much more proactive, or maybe it's just a different kind of employee) but maybe that's something I might like to tackle on a different level, in a more professional capacity in the future. It's strange to think that the one thing that brings you to your knees might also be the program for your success.

Graces7

Horrifying thread and glad folk are standing up to bullies. Being non Irish I am well aware that so many Irish folk will not stand up for themselves where authority is concerned. I see this so often here. Just want to shake them and say STAND UP TO THIS! Seems to be so much respect and fear of authority.

delthedriver

What are Trade Unions doing to protect their members?

Is it part of their function or are they ignoring the issue?

Perhaps they are busy protecting jobs that a bullying issue is not high on their agenda

Call centres I guess are an area prone to bullying?

delthedriver

Graces7 wrote: »

Horrifying thread and glad folk are standing up to bullies. Being non Irish I am well aware that so many Irish folk will not stand up for themselves where authority is concerned. I see this so often here. Just want to shake them and say STAND UP TO THIS! Seems to be so much respect and fear of authority.

Interesting comments.

I suspect in many cases the victim is highly intelligent, motivated and committed member of staff. Very often they put up with the crap as being part of the rough and tumble of business life.

Of course the vermin or bully will target the victim as they perceive them as a potential threat to him or his position in the organisation. Bullying can take many forms, it can be relentless work demands, unachievable targets, constant criticism of the individual or their work, shouting down the victim or not paying attention to what they are saying, the list is endless

Very often the victim is too busy working delivering on their targets or duties , until they realise that their health is failing . They then perceive themselves as as a failure and ultimately.................!

An Annual Stress Audit is the potential solution which should be undertaken by The Employer. Of course Employers won't do this for fear of what they may hear.
Instead they speak In wooly terms of having policies in place against bullying.

The culture of superiors advising subordinates that they don't wish to hear problems is often an indication that Bullying is alive and well in an organisation.!

Would be delighted to hear thoughts. Perhaps you can identify some of these issues when you return to work tomorrow?

Remember you are important in this world . Do not let any psychopath or vermin make your life a living hell.

Your health is your wealth!

Push Pop

In cases in this thread where there are no legal cases pending, why don't you name and shame so we can hurt the offending company by boycotting it.
Some of the stories here are disturbing. I would love to know what sort of sh1thole allows a culture of intimidation, shouting and making people cry. I'm must be lucky because I have never seen any of this behavior and I'm working for c. 16 years.

ilovebiology

Push Pop wrote: »

In cases in this thread where there are no legal cases pending, why don't you name and shame so we can hurt the offending company by boycotting it.
Some of the stories here are disturbing. I would love to know what sort of sh1thole allows a culture of intimidation, shouting and making people cry. I'm must be lucky because I have never seen any of this behavior and I'm working for c. 16 years.

Organisations and companies cannot be named here, legal cases pending or not, as Boards would be sued, and no one wants that.

cletus van damme

I witnessed a case in a place I was doing consultancy in for a brief period.

It was a joke everybody knew it was going on but nobody in senior management did anything.
Then the two victims made an offical complaint to HR and head of HR went to lunch with the person accused that very day.
WTF..

it went nowhere until one of the victims emailed a person in the parent company abroad.

It was resolved somewhat. the bully left the company but no apology or anything to the two involved.
I just think procedures are shocking in soem companies and in others personalities and the buddy nature of senior management make any procedures useless

delthedriver

ilovebiology wrote: »

Organisations and companies cannot be named here, legal cases pending or not, as Boards would be sued, and no one wants that.

Correct.

In terms of legal precedent there are few cases . Such cases are settled on the Court Steps afteryears of trying to break the victim. Hence such cases do not create precedent nor ever make headlines.

IvyTheTerrible

Work related suicides didn't just happen in Orange in France, there were other widely reported cases. Where I worked previously (a place with 1500 employees), there were two cases of suicide on site. Absolutely nothing was done to improve employee morale, people just heard about the suicides on the grapevine.