Work Related Suicide

Blisterman

I really don't think people should ever rush to blame someone for a person's suicide without knowing all the facts. For all we know, the employees could have suffered from mental health problems for years, and it's just a coincidence that they happen to have worked for the same company.

Immediately rushing to blame somebody for this, is only going to cause additional stress to the families and colleagues of the victims. Also, by creating this negative publicity, companies are only going to be more reluctant to hire people with mental health issues in the future, for fear of being blamed for their death.

IvyTheTerrible

Blisterman wrote: »

I really don't think people should ever rush to blame someone for a person's suicide without knowing all the facts. For all we know, the employees could have suffered from mental health problems for years, and it's just a coincidence that they happen to have worked for the same company.

Immediately rushing to blame somebody for this, is only going to cause additional stress to the families and colleagues of the victims. Also, by creating this negative publicity, companies are only going to be more reluctant to hire people with mental health issues in the future, for fear of being blamed for their death.

Well in both cases I mentioned the people did it in the workplace and left notes citing lack of support/bullying in the workplace.

delthedriver

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Well in both cases I mentioned the people did it in the workplace and left notes citing lack of support/bullying in the workplace.

I am sure no one would suggest the workplace had a role in the death of an employee without evidence.

In the sbove cases were the Gardai notified?

Big companies are good at PR and Spin. Cowards really!

pharmaton

delthedriver wrote: »

Interesting comments.



An Annual Stress Audit is the potential solution which should be undertaken by The Employer. Of course Employers won't do this for fear of what they may hear.
Instead they speak In wooly terms of having policies in place against bullying.

The culture of superiors advising subordinates that they don't wish to hear problems is often an indication that Bullying is alive and well in an organisation.!

Would be delighted to hear thoughts. Perhaps you can identify some of these issues when you return to work tomorrow?

Remember you are important in this world . Do not let any psychopath or vermin make your life a living hell.

Your health is your wealth!

There's a couple of things come to mind. Most people when they start a new job are briefed on general health and safety aspects in the workplace, sign forms confirming you are aware of procedure or occasionally be required to complete formal training etc etc, mostly carried out for the protection of employers. Following this you are expected to take a certain amount of responsibility for your actions and safety, which is only right and correct.
I worked for one company who took stress and health as seriously as all the other aspects. You were given, along with your handbook, a contact number for free counseling if it was ever required and a freephone helpline was available 24/7. You were notified of the employees responsible for enacting policies and as it was their only job, it was encouraging to know that employee health and wellbeing was so well catered for and the door was opened. A company can really do little more than that, the rest comes down to employee responsibility to make use of the tools provided to ensure a safe space to work in.

Needless to say, it wasn't an Irish company. Even though I was only employed there for a short time, I never witnessed any untoward employee behaviour, from the top down.

Most Irish employers I've worked for don't appear have the same regard for employee welfare, while there are policies in place for safeguarding themselves there is very little done to actually protect the worker.

Ironically someone mentioned unions somewhere, the model which replaced their contribution is based on the above account of an American multinational. (although union membership was available also)

Wanderer2010

Its a rough world out there and the workplace is no different. Here is what I have learned in my years working:

Women are just as bad at bullying as men. In fact, a slight middle aged woman can bully the life out of a strapping 20 something man under the right circumstances-the woman is a supervisor and starts off being nice and helpful but then criticizes the guy's work more and more- in meetings, ignoring his suggestions, comparing his work to her favorite employees, etc until the guy is worn down and suffers panic attacks at the mere thought of more work.

If he manages to summon up the courage to complain to her, she reacts with complete surprise and turns the situation on him "Im only trying to help you, why are you like this?", if he complains to HR, he is shot down because "snidey comments" and "ignoring" is easily swatted away by a department firmly on the side of managers. If said manager (male or female) manages to achieve company goals quickly and efficiently they can pretty much treat anyone how they like. And the above also applies to a women being bullied by a man.

You need to have a rapport with the alpha male or female in the office/factory because the opinion that person has of you rubs off on the people who follow him or her so if you are a really good worker and have ethics but cant make small talk or banter with some dic*head who you can see right through then expect to be shunned, isolated and ignored when it comes to promotions or new jobs simply because you are not "seen" enough.

People who seem to be your pal and have a great laugh about how stupid your boss is or how Mary from accounts is a bug flirt can do a complete 360 degree turn on you the very next day and blank you whilst defending Mary to the death. People are just weird by nature so never, EVER think workmates can be trusted or your true friends. There is always an agenda with workmates.

Women who gossip about others personal life are a particularly odious bunch. I have seem some of them whisper, point, giggle and laugh about other people, men and women, and start horrible and disgusting rumors about somebodys lifestyle or relationship choices, and 9 times out of 10 you know exactly when they are doing it but you have 3 choices: Storm over and shout at them in which case you look crazy and have no proof. Make a complaint and you look crazy because you have no proof. Or leave because your mental health isnt worth it. There is a special place in hell for such b!tches.

I have seen Companies hire graduates because they can use their enthusiasm for a year or so before total burn out then just replace them with a fresh wave. I have seen people put up with overwork and underappreciation for YEARS just for the sake of keeping a wage.

To summarize, the above can make you very cynical. Indeed, it has made me a bitter and untrusting old sod who really treats work as nothing more than a means to pay bills. I dont get close, dont get caught up in gossip and I dont trust a single workmate. If i ever find a job just too stressful I leave after a year- thats more than enough to keep your CV acceptable. People are weird and bullying and strange and unpredictable by nature. Throw in a workplace and you are going to see all sorts. My advice? If something is causing you to feel that bad get out before its too late..

ilovebiology

delthedriver wrote: »

Perhaps it would be no harm for people to lobby their TD to get the issue raised in the Dail. This way the item gets public attention and the relevant Government Bodies get themselves in gear.

25per cent of Suicides in Ireland are work related. That statistic is shocking , and it is too many unnecessary deaths.

This is something I still have to do! I certainly intend on doing it though. I have some friends in high places, who know me, and I am confident would have it raised and addressed. I must get around to it, I feel it would be something positive to come out of what I went through, and if it can slow down this national epidemic in some way, then at least I will know I did something good for someone else, who is currently in the horrifying place I was once in.

delthedriver

ilovebiology wrote: »

This is something I still have to do! I certainly intend on doing it though. I have some friends in high places, who know me, and I am confident would have it raised and addressed. I must get around to it, I feel it would be something positive to come out of what I went through, and if it can slow down this national epidemic in some way, then at least I will know I did something good for someone else, who is currently in the horrifying place I was once in.

Gosh if you have the right connections it would be a wonderful thing if you could elevate this horrendous issue. As I write here I think about people who have been enduring ongoing bullying at work and face another day of it tomorrow. Even worse there may be people considering more grim solutions to the situations they face.

ilovebiology

delthedriver wrote: »

Gosh if you have the right connections it would be a wonderful thing if you could elevate this horrendous issue. As I write here I think about people who have been enduring ongoing bullying at work and face another day of it tomorrow. Even worse there may be people considering more grim solutions to the situations they face.

I have very good connections, who are very good to me. I can get some information, and research this deadly silent epidemic with organisations I know of, and do something positive about this horrendous issue of work related suicide. Suicide is a very serious national issue, its great its being openly discussed in the media, now the reasons behind why people are taking their own lives needs to be addressed. I'll do all I can to get it raised in Leinster House.

delthedriver

ilovebiology wrote: »

I have very good connections, who are very good to me. I can get some information, and research this deadly silent epidemic with organisations I know of, and do something positive about this horrendous issue of work related suicide. Suicide is a very serious national issue, its great its being openly discussed in the media, now the reasons behind why people are taking their own lives needs to be addressed. I'll do all I can to get it raised in Leinster House.

Thank you and well done in advance.

Every death due to work related suicide, is one too many !

Call Me Jimmy

I'm very fearful about returning to work because I've seen how things get. I got a very slight version of bullying, I was a mess anyway at the time so I'm surprised I wasn't proper bullied.

But it's a big fear for me.

ilovebiology

delthedriver wrote: »

Thank you and well done in advance.

Every death due to work related suicide, is one too many !

I was so very close to being another work related suicide, I cannot tell you how terrifying it was, so I know all to well how so many people feel. I'll do all I can on this issue. Its so very important.

Call Me Jimmy

I was just thinking there, I wonder would some sort of 'employer review' thing where employees rate employers in terms of general treatment and quality of life at work? It seems to me it would be good to know as a prospective employee of an organisation, to at least get a sense of how they treat their workers. It wouldn't be perfect but it would flag bad employers?

ilovebiology

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I'm very fearful about returning to work because I've seen how things get. I got a very slight version of bullying, I was a mess anyway at the time so I'm surprised I wasn't proper bullied.

But it's a big fear for me.

I'm so sorry to hear that, I really am. I went through all of that, and I cannot put into the correct words to describe how awful it is. Its just so wrong. By all means if you would like to talk or need some support, or maybe some advice, feel free to PM me.

ilovebiology

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I was just thinking there, I wonder would some sort of 'employer review' thing where employees rate employers in terms of general treatment and quality of life at work? It seems to me it would be good to know as a prospective employee of an organisation, to at least get a sense of how they treat their workers. It wouldn't be perfect but it would flag bad employers?

Something like that would be brilliant, but employers would never let bad reviews or employees being treated terribly be circulated anywhere within the public arena. If anyone did, the employer would probably sue the individual, or where the bad reviews were circulated.

To be honest, bullying and harassment takes place in almost every workplace in Ireland on some level, whether it is every so often, or a full destructive campaign on an employee. It's a huge problem, but is kept quiet because of lawsuits being settled out of court, and the employee being restricted on speaking publicly about a particular employer

Call Me Jimmy

Yes but surely if it was effectively broad, not anywhere speaking about bullying or specific cases /names but just a star rating of an organisation as employees opinions of it as a workplace. Surely without names/places/specifics and anonymous rating it could not be possible to sue?

delthedriver

ilovebiology wrote: »

Something like that would be brilliant, but employers would never let bad reviews or employees being treated terribly be circulated anywhere within the public arena. If anyone did, the employer would probably sue the individual, or where the bad reviews were circulated.

To be honest, bullying and harassment takes place in almost every workplace in Ireland on some level, whether it is every so often, or a full destructive campaign on an employee. It's a huge problem, but is kept quiet because of lawsuits being settled out of court, and the employee being restricted on speaking publicly about a particular employer

I understand there are surveys completed by some Employers, and there are National awards, Great place to work!

May have been be categorised under headings, number of employees etc. Perhaps someone may be able to update on this?

It has been used rather cynically by CEO 's to impress a Parent Company abroad , or as part of an exercise by The HR Dept to prove what a great job they are doing.

As to whom actually completes the survey remains a mystery. One may guess that the survey is completed by a handful of chosen employees rather than all employees!

If all employees were to complete the survey one may guess that some winners of awards should actually be losers!

Sorry to sound cynical !

So I would certainly take any Employer boasting as their business being the holders of Great Place to work award with a grain of salt.

ilovebiology

delthedriver wrote: »

I understand there are surveys completed by some Employers, and there are National awards, Great place to work!

May have been be categorised under headings, number of employees etc. Perhaps someone may be able to update on this?

It has been used rather cynically by CEO 's to impress a Parent Company abroad , or as part of an exercise by The HR Dept to prove what a great job they are doing.

As to whom actually completes the survey remains a mystery. One may guess that the survey is completed by a handful of chosen employees rather than all employees!

If all employees were to complete the survey one may guess that some winners of awards should actually be losers!

Sorry to sound cynical !

So I would certainly take any Employer boasting as their business being the holders of Great Place to work award with a grain of salt.

It would be absolutely fantastic to name and shame some of these murdering employers, and for the public to know how they treat employee's, particularly the story of how employee's committed suicide, or those who were very close to suicide like me, because of the barbaric ruthless actions of managers.

If anyone has some stories of someone they know who died because of a cruel employer, or what they are currently experiencing at work, feel free to share your story here. It would help to give other readers here an idea of the extent of this very serious problem in Ireland.

NOTE - Just to beware not to name the employer, or put anyone's name within this thread. Otherwise, you can share your story as much as you want, thanks.

mrsdewinter

ilovebiology wrote: »

It would be absolutely fantastic to name and shame some of these murdering employers, and for the public to know how they treat employee's, particularly the story of how employee's committed suicide, or those who were very close to suicide like me, because of the barbaric ruthless actions of managers.

If anyone has some stories of someone they know who died because of a cruel employer, or what they are currently experiencing at work, feel free to share your story here. It would help to give other readers here an idea of the extent of this very serious problem in Ireland.

NOTE - Just to beware not to name the employer, or put anyone's name within this thread. Otherwise, you can share your story as much as you want, thanks.

Wait. You want people to name and shame the guilty employers - just without naming the bad guys here?
To be honest, if a relative of mine had taken their own life after workplace bullying, I'd be appalled to see their suffering parsed and analysed by a bunch of uninformed strangers on t'internet.
It's good to see this issue raised but let the deceased retain their dignity in death, please.

Think_then_talk

FREEPHONE Samaritans 116123


I'm so sorry the number above may help .

gugleguy

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

People who seem to be your pal and have a great laugh about how stupid your boss is or how Mary from accounts is a bug flirt can do a complete 360 degree turn on you the very next day and blank you whilst defending Mary to the death. People are just weird by nature so never, EVER think workmates can be trusted or your true friends. There is always an agenda with workmates.

Alternatively called backstabbing. Become more commonplace in Ireland today.

gugleguy

my own corrolory to Wanderer's passage above:

Let's say John and Billy are good friends, working in the same office.
Review time comes around for both John and Billy.
Both of them get a "Could do better" rating in the review. They empathize to each other about the review they got, quite openly(this turns out to be bad thing to do)
next time, John gets an "met objectives" rating, but Billy still gets "Could do better". Now while Billy is fretting and licking his sores, Billy does'nt want to give him the time now. I've seen this more than once.

miss no stars

shopaholic01 wrote: »

It sounds like a concentration camp. Are any Irish or Irish based companies like this?

I would think that the relative mortality rates show that it most certainly does not sound like a concentration camp and comments like that totally diminish the severity of concentration camps. It sounds awful, horrific, but not like a concentration camp.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

what about the man who owns the business

waking up at four in the morning worrying over the bank and the revenue

you never see this as an employee

you get laid off you can walk in and get 188 a week

what does he get?

I work in a very small business in a struggling industry. My boss couldn't be nicer. He's spent years surviving week to week... And he's a gentleman who couldn't be nicer or fairer and had more to lose than anyone else if the business went under. As you said, if he laid me off tomorrow I'd get 188 euro a week. He'd have nothing.

Far more stressful than being some middle-management sort in a massive corporation where you don't lose everything if the business goes under.

Don't make excuses for that kind of behaviour - ever.

Push Pop

gugleguy wrote: »

my own corrolory to Wanderer's passage above:

Let's say John and Billy are good friends, working in the same office.
Review time comes around for both John and Billy.
Both of them get a "Could do better" rating in the review. They empathize to each other about the review they got, quite openly(this turns out to be bad thing to do)
next time, John gets an "met objectives" rating, but Billy still gets "Could do better". Now while Billy is fretting and licking his sores, Billy does'nt want to give him the time now. I've seen this more than once.

I really hate performance reviews as they can be so biased and subjective. They can be used as a passive aggressive way to bully and exert total power over someone. In certain points in my career I could actually do the job better than my boss and I remember sitting there in a review thinking to myself, who the feck are you to be judging me. In IT there is nowhere to hide but I imagine in other office type places politics and power dynamics are at play.
Always remember, the less profit driven a workplace is, the more political it will be.

Soft Falling Rain

What I found over the past few years is that a job is never worth your health or well being. In my previous job I found myself extremely stressed, to the point that my stress was manifesting in physical illness. Then there were the constant sleepless nights in anticipation of another **** day and the occasional borderline panic attacks walking into the place in the morning.

So, in spite of having nothing lined up, I eventually packed it in. I was met with disapproving attitudes from some people but TBH, only I knew what was best for me, and I have never regretted my decision (can happily say I'm in a new job that while not great pay, it suits me and I work with a good team that is supportive).

I no longer live under a constant cloud of dread and that to me is priceless. The only regret I have is that I put up with unending stress for 18 months and didn't pack in it in sooner just because I didn't want to disappoint people or feel like a failure.

People need to do what's best for them, regardless of not having anything lined up or the worry about what others think. We are far too concerned in this country about "soldiering on" for fear of being viewed as failures or weak in the eyes of older generations or family/friends. But as I said, only you can know what's best for you. At the end of the day, you could keep going in an environment that is literally killing you, and maybe one day that will manifest in something like a stroke or worse. When that happens, where will the disapproving people be that you didn't want to disappoint? Probably making some condescending and classy comment such as "ah well he was always a bit too soft, let things get to him." :rolleyes:

delthedriver

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Wait. You want people to name and shame the guilty employers - just without naming the bad guys here?
To be honest, if a relative of mine had taken their own life after workplace bullying, I'd be appalled to see their suffering parsed and analysed by a bunch of uninformed strangers on t'internet.
It's good to see this issue raised but let the deceased retain their dignity in death, please.

Interesting comments. Perhaps if we look from a different perspective? If I were to lose someone close to me following suicide. If the cause of the suicide is unknown I think I would be questioning, what did I do or say which May have caused the untimely death. Is it right that I should torment myself worrying about my actions if the actual cause of suicide is in fact Work Related?

delthedriver

pharmaton wrote: »

There's a couple of things come to mind. Most people when they start a new job are briefed on general health and safety aspects in the workplace, sign forms confirming you are aware of procedure or occasionally be required to complete formal training etc etc, mostly carried out for the protection of employers. Following this you are expected to take a certain amount of responsibility for your actions and safety, which is only right and correct.
I worked for one company who took stress and health as seriously as all the other aspects. You were given, along with your handbook, a contact number for free counseling if it was ever required and a freephone helpline was available 24/7. You were notified of the employees responsible for enacting policies and as it was their only job, it was encouraging to know that employee health and wellbeing was so well catered for and the door was opened. A company can really do little more than that, the rest comes down to employee responsibility to make use of the tools provided to ensure a safe space to work in.

Needless to say, it wasn't an Irish company. Even though I was only employed there for a short time, I never witnessed any untoward employee behaviour, from the top down.

Most Irish employers I've worked for don't appear have the same regard for employee welfare, while there are policies in place for safeguarding themselves there is very little done to actually protect the worker.

Ironically someone mentioned unions somewhere, the model which replaced their contribution is based on the above account of an American multinational. (although union membership was available also)

EAP, or Employee Assistance Programme is really a Cop out by Employers to be seen to be supportive of Employee's in distress. The confidentiality aspect is rather questionable. Employers send a questionnaire to the Counsellor involved. The questions are designed to minimise any possible connection between the Employees issues and possible links to The Company. It is then very easy for The Company to deflect any responsibility and turn the issues back on the Employee.

I recall a suicide in an organisation involving the premature death of a young highly intelligent young man. He passed away over a weekend. On Monday , Senior Personnel were spinning the line that it had nothing to do with the Company, he had issues in his personal life. Close colleagues advised me otherwise, but the Company suppressed any suggestions of Work related issues.The said Company involved had an EAP in place and therefore believed they had done all they could !

delthedriver

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

What I found over the past few years is that a job is never worth your health or well being. In my previous job I found myself extremely stressed, to the point that my stress was manifesting in physical illness. Then there were the constant sleepless nights in anticipation of another **** day and the occasional borderline panic attacks walking into the place in the morning.

So, in spite of having nothing lined up, I eventually packed it in. I was met with disapproving attitudes from some people but TBH, only I knew what was best for me, and I have never regretted my decision (can happily say I'm in a new job that while not great pay, it suits me and I work with a good team that is supportive).

I no longer live under a constant cloud of dread and that to me is priceless. The only regret I have is that I put up with unending stress for 18 months and didn't pack in it in sooner just because I didn't want to disappoint people or feel like a failure.

People need to do what's best for them, regardless of not having anything lined up or the worry about what others think. We are far too concerned in this country about "soldiering on" for fear of being viewed as failures or weak in the eyes of older generations or family/friends. But as I said, only you can know what's best for you. At the end of the day, you could keep going in an environment that is literally killing you, and maybe one day that will manifest in something like a stroke or worse. When that happens, where will the disapproving people be that you didn't want to disappoint? Probably making some condescending and classy comment such as "ah well he was always a bit too soft, let things get to him." :rolleyes:

Agree with you totally, your health is your wealth. As for the condescending comments they are usually uttered by clowns who would not work to warm themselves!

The Hill Billy

Only this morning I was talking to someone in the UK who is conducting research into morale across the European telco industry. Apparently it is incredibly low in this sector compared to industry norms. There are no specific indicators yet as to why this is the case.

And it ain't just Orange that this is happening in & not just at 'worker' level. I work for a large telco & tragically lost one of my team to suicide in January. Our CEO (a very bright, successful & utterly charming individual) also took his own life last year. There have been others also, but I do not know the full circumstances & not all suicides can be directly attributed to thw work environment.

I have to say though that while I am finishing in my job here next Monday (nothing concrete to go to just yet), I am doing so with a huge sense of relief.

delthedriver

Hope everyone is doing well.

If you are feeling unwell and dreading the return to work tomorrow, perhaps it is time to be kind to yourself. Have you considered a visit to your GP , talking to Samaritans or Aware.

Remember you are not alone. Your health is your wealth. Please consider positive actions you may take in order to protect yourself.

Life is for living not enduring.

Have a great week.

Best Wishes

delthedriver

Hi All,


As we approach the weekend, I hope this week went well for you at work.


If anyone is in difficulty it is important to make contact with your GP.


On the Legal side an Employment Law Specialist is a must. Should anyone need the name of a contact , please feel free to PM me.


Enjoy life! Life is for living!