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Quitting the Teaching Profession
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This is a very useful thread.
Teachers have basically been told to shut up and get on with it from the "Aren't you lucky to have a job" brigade.
Told by their unions, management, inspectors, the Minister, "journalists" who are in the pockets of politicians etc. .
For many the last 6 years have made their job intolerable.
There appears also to be no recognition from the DES or the Teaching Council of the continuing deteriorating situation in teaching. . . . No support mechanisms have been set up to help teachers leave.
So this thread is very welcome.0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »This is a very useful thread.
Teachers have basically been told to shut up and get on with it from the "Aren't you lucky to have a job" brigade.
Told by their unions, management, inspectors, the Minister, "journalists" who are in the pockets of politicians etc. .
For many the last 6 years have made their job intolerable.
There appears also to be no recognition from the DES or the Teaching Council of the continuing deteriorating situation in teaching. . . . No support mechanisms have been set up to help teachers leave.
So this thread is very welcome.
I totally agree.It's actually a relief that people are starting to put up their hands and admit that the job is intolerable and that they want out.A relief,but also extremely sad.What I find telling, is when the OP said that his partner has a "decent" job, which is quite obviously not in teaching.
7 or 8 years ago teaching was a decent job.It was always hard and required a great deal of hard work and commitment,but that was compensated by decent pay and conditions,the respect and good will of society in general, and it was a lot more family friendly than now. Now,as a result of the savage attacks of the past few years,it's fast becoming a job nobody with any self respect will want to do.
The OP admits that he's not a great disciplinarian.In the past the job accommodated different classroom styles and provided you weren't a walk over, you didn't have to be a super bouncer to control a class.Nowadays with huge class sizes and zero support for the teacher,it's sink or swim and many, who're just learning how to swim, are quickly devoured by the sharks.Add to that, the massive extra workload of recent years,the worries for the future, the constant teacher bashing and it's no wonder teachers' health is suffering and many want out.
There is no doubt whatsoever that Ireland has been blessed with exceptionally bright,talented teachers who've had an extremely positive influence on their students both inside and outside the classroom. Sadly,that calibre of person will no longer want to be a teacher. Why would they? What's in it for them now? And who'll be the losers when that asshole Quinn and his ilk,in addition to corrupt union leaders, are long gone?
OP,think of yourself,your partner and your future and get the hell out!0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »
There appears also to be no recognition from the DES or the Teaching Council of the continuing deteriorating situation in teaching. . . . No support mechanisms have been set up to help teachers leave.
What do you suggest? There's already career breaks and early retirements available. The OP is only on a short term contract.If you just graduated and find that teaching isn't for you(which happens often) what do expect the DES to do? any employer isn't going to incentivise productive workers to leave(not even redundancy),should it not be the unions helping?
The teaching council would probably say the mickey mouse workshops are supporting new teachers too:rolleyes:.0 -
What do you suggest? There's already career breaks and early retirements available. The OP is only on a short term contract.If you just graduated and find that teaching isn't for you(which happens often) what do expect the DES to do? any employer isn't going to incentivise productive workers to leave(not even redundancy),should it not be the unions helping?
The teaching council would probably say the mickey mouse workshops are supporting new teachers too:rolleyes:.
This is not just about teachers starting their careers. It is about ALL teachers at various stages of the career.
The DES have been busy making worse the terms and conditions of employment whilst increasing the demands and stress levels of all teachers to the extent that many experienced teachers have had enough. They need help and support in leaving teaching. . . but the DES and the Teaching Council don't give a toss. The unions are irrelevant.
The Minister cannot just dramatically increase the demands and stress levels of teachers, cut their sick entitlements to 7 uncertified over 24 months and then say "nothing to do with me".
One day a teacher will take the DES to court and sue over illness suffered as a result of excess stress. Then the floodgates will open.0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »
The Minister cannot just dramatically increase the demands and stress levels of teachers, cut their sick entitlements to 7 uncertified over 24 months and then say "nothing to do with me".
I think he can, and in fairness he just did several times.
I do agree with the last poster that it is more to do with the unions than the Department.
The unions can have 2 jobs here.
1. Fight the department on these issues like increasing workload and stress on teachers as you have mentioned
2. Put in place extra things for their members. I think the union have forgotten they are there to serve their paying members. They are there to represent and help their members. The CareCall thing is one way they do this but if for example there are large numbers of teachers looking to leave then they surely have a responsibility to set up an information section on their website (at an absolute minimum) along with someone in head office trained in career advice for someone looking to move on (again in fairness head office would really have to answer the phones first but after that stage has been achieved they could have someone to advise)0 -
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I think he can, and in fairness he just did several times.
I think you're missing the point. Yes conditions have been made worse but the minister is responsible entirely. That opens up a possible future legal challenge in my view.I do agree with the last poster that it is more to do with the unions than the Department.
The unions can have 2 jobs here.
1. Fight the department on these issues like increasing workload and stress on teachers as you have mentioned
2. Put in place extra things for their members. I think the union have forgotten they are there to serve their paying members. They are there to represent and help their members. The CareCall thing is one way they do this but if for example there are large numbers of teachers looking to leave then they surely have a responsibility to set up an information section on their website (at an absolute minimum) along with someone in head office trained in career advice for someone looking to move on (again in fairness head office would really have to answer the phones first but after that stage has been achieved they could have someone to advise)
Unions are not employers of teachers.
They have no responsibility in terms of the health and mental well-being of teachers.
If teachers want to leave the profession then that's a damning indictment of their uselessness over the past 6 years.0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »I think you're missing the point. Yes conditions have been made worse but the minister is responsible entirely. That opens up a possible future legal challenge in my view.
Unions are not employers of teachers.
They have no responsibility in terms of the health and mental well-being of teachers.
If teachers want to leave the profession then that's a damning indictment of their uselessness over the past 6 years.
Ok0 -
What is CareCall? Becaue,as well as mechanisms needing to be put in place to facilitate teachers wanting to leave,something also needs to be there for teachers who don't want to leave, but who feel that the stress intolerable and that they're up against a brick wall. Does anyone know if such a service is available for teachers? Because,if so,I've never heard.
I think everyone likes to put a brave face on things. There is this sense that we must suck it all up and keep moving on. But moving on to what? You go into any typical school and teachers are whizzing around all business,corridors are spilling over with the teenage population of the country,you might meet a P or VP in a suit along the way [and that includes the female ones],messages are being relayed by intercom and notice boards are full of all the clubs and activities available to the students. Meanwhie that evening, the entire staff will be there until after 6 doing CP hours.This school,like most others, is a hive of industry and everything seems to be under control. But under the surface,many teachers are barely holding it together.
Peter is right. The responsibility lies with he employer,the minister.And there is no doubt that some one will haul his ass to court in due course, citing health threatening stress. How that will pan out is anyone's guess!0 -
What is CareCall? Becaue,as well as mechanisms needing to be put in place to facilitate teachers wanting to leave,something also needs to be there for teachers who don't want to leave, but who feel that the stress intolerable and that they're up against a brick wall. Does anyone know if such a service is available for teachers? Because,if so,I've never heard.
I think everyone likes to put a brave face on things. There is this sense that we must suck it all up and keep moving on. But moving on to what? You go into any typical school and teachers are whizzing around all business,corridors are spilling over with the teenage population of the country,you might meet a P or VP in a suit along the way [and that includes the female ones],messages are being relayed by intercom and notice boards are full of all the clubs and activities available to the students. Meanwhie that evening, the entire staff will be there until after 6 doing CP hours.This school,like most others, is a hive of industry and everything seems to be under control. But under the surface,many teachers are barely holding it together.
Peter is right. The responsibility lies with he employer,the minister.And there is no doubt that some one will haul his ass to court in due course, citing health threatening stress. How that will pan out is anyone's guess!
http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/conditions-of-work/health-and-safety/employee-assistance-service/
From the ASTI website, we have a poster about it up in our school
I don't disagree that the health and mental health of the employees is something for the employers to be responsible for, but the point that they should provide a mechanism for people the leave is incorrect in my opinion0 -
Thanks for replies everyone. Nice to know most are supportive. Surprised how many are understanding of the situation I currently find myself in. Just to clear up as well, I am not a newly qualified teacher. Been teaching nearly 6 years now (and depressingly still a distance away from a CID) and been in a number of different schools. I cant say that this quitting feeling I am currently having is completly as a result of the school I am in at the moment. I had the exact same feeling at the end of last year in a different school. I feel I have just reached the tipping point in regards to the complete and utter disrespect Im getting in this profession.
As acequion said, Its at the point where I have to think of whats best for my health and whats best for those close to me.
Had no idea that CareCall actually existed.
I have found a Masters course that I would love to do. I guess ill have a very tough call to make over the coming couple of months0 -
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http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/conditions-of-work/health-and-safety/employee-assistance-service/
From the ASTI website, we have a poster about it up in our school
I don't disagree that the health and mental health of the employees is something for the employers to be responsible for, but the point that they should provide a mechanism for people the leave is incorrect in my opinion
Why is it "incorrect"?
If anything it makes logical sense.
Why have a seriously overworked and possible depressed teacher going into classrooms when they want to leave themselves?
Why not arrange and set up support mechanisms for them to leave teaching?
It's a total cop out to state it would be "incorrect".0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »Why is it "incorrect"?
If anything it makes logical sense.
Why have a seriously overworked and possible depressed teacher going into classrooms when they want to leave themselves?
Why not arrange and set up support mechanisms for them to leave teaching?
It's a total cop out to state it would be "incorrect".
As I said in my opinion it is incorrect. Whether my opinion is correct or incorrect is another matter but everyone here is entitled to their opinion even when it disagrees with yours.
If I worked long hours in a newsagents down the road would it be their responsibility to help me to get out of the job?
In relation to the comment about having possibly depressed teacher going into the classroom - why can they not just leave what is stopping them? why is the employer responsible for helping them to leave? What other employers in the country would help their employees to leave?0 -
As I said in my opinion it is incorrect. Whether my opinion is correct or incorrect is another matter but everyone here is entitled to their opinion even when it disagrees with yours.
If I worked long hours in a newsagents down the road would it be their responsibility to help me to get out of the job?
In relation to the comment about having possibly depressed teacher going into the classroom - why can they not just leave what is stopping them? why is the employer responsible for helping them to leave? What other employers in the country would help their employees to leave?
They can leave if they wish but perhaps they have responsibilities - mortgages, children to clothe and feed etc. . .
In whose interests is it that a teacher is forced to stay in a job they don't want to be in but are forced to do so out of financial constraints and a Minister and/or management who couldn't care less?
Personally I think that teachers (and other public servants) should be given the option to leave and have their pension contributions up to their recent pay check returned to them. They could then therefore make plans for a separate career out of teaching.
Of course that'll never happen. . . as we'd all be leaving in droves.
So let's keep uo the veneer that everyone is happy and that any form of helping those who are unhappy would be "incorrect".0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »They can leave if they wish but perhaps they have responsibilities - mortgages, children to clothe and feed etc. . .
In whose interests is it that a teacher is forced to stay in a job they don't want to be in but are forced to do so out of financial constraints and a Minister and/or management who couldn't care less?.
Again I don't see how this is the responsibility of the employer. All working people in whatever job they are in have financial responsibilities whether it be loans, mortgage, children, rent etc. etc.
Again no one is forcing anyone to stay.
You did not answer any of my previous questions which are at the base of my point. Why are we special?
If I worked long hours in a newsagents down the road would it be their responsibility to help me to get out of the job?
In relation to the comment about having possibly depressed teacher going into the classroom - why can they not just leave what is stopping them? why is the employer responsible for helping them to leave? What other employers in the country would help their employees to leave?0 -
Again I don't see how this is the responsibility of the employer. All working people in whatever job they are in have financial responsibilities whether it be loans, mortgage, children, rent etc. etc.
Again no one is forcing anyone to stay.
You did not answer any of my previous questions which are at the base of my point. Why are we special?
If I worked long hours in a newsagents down the road would it be their responsibility to help me to get out of the job?
In relation to the comment about having possibly depressed teacher going into the classroom - why can they not just leave what is stopping them? why is the employer responsible for helping them to leave? What other employers in the country would help their employees to leave?
I gave you an option regarding pension contributions returned to the teacher who wants to leave. . . You can answer that if you wish
Working in a newsagent stacking shelves and selling chocolate bars is not equivalent to dealing and working and being responsible for the education of up to 200 children per week.
It's an awful stupid analogy if you don't mind me saying so.
The state - via the Minister - want to cut away and then stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is happening.
I think an option should be there to help teachers who wish to leave their jobs as it's all win-win for all as far as I can see as:
1 - the teacher feels they are getting their life back on track being out of the job.
2 - the child doesn't have togo into a classroom run by a demotivated and demoralised teacher.
3 - the parent is happy that their child is not being taught by a demotivated and demoralised teacher.
4 - It could free up many jobs for those looking to enter the profession.
Of course . . . The thickos in the DES can't think outside the box.0 -
Ok you still havn't answered either of the two main questions you are just repeating yourself over and over so I'm not going to bother taking the thread off track with an over and back between us. I'll leave it at that with you0
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Ok you still havn't answered either of the two main questions you are just repeating yourself over and over so I'm not going to bother taking the thread off track with an over and back between us. I'll leave it at that with you
<Mod snip> Let's not stoop to personal insults. Member has been banned.
PS - I answered your questions as to why it is in everyones interests that demotivated and demoralised teachers are supported if they wish to leave their jobs.0 -
Hi. I can really sympathise with you. I'm 29 and have been teaching for the past 4 years. My health has deteriorated rapidly over the past couple of years and it is 100% to do with the job.....stress!!! That's why I have decided to quit the profession which has been a massive weight off my shoulders. My health is way more important and to be honest I've never been happier. It is unbelievable what stress can do to you. People outside of the profession really don't have a clue what work good teachers do.
Recently I returned from England where I have spent 6 months teaching History. I honestly felt the pressure I was under was insane for the money I was on. I ended up working ALL day every day and putting up with disrespect like what you experience. Obviously I got really sick as a result and it got to the point where I just didn't think it was worth it.
I also did a lot of subbing in DEIS schools before I went over and it was really tough. I have started applying for jobs outside the profession and am already getting some feedback. They have absolutely nothing to do with my qualification but working in rough schools made me really really unhappy. I really dont care what I get coz teaching has made me broke, ill and I had to move away from my friends and family just to work.
Life's too short. Your health and happiness is more important than any job!!!0 -
Sounds like you've made the right choice Ferg,good luck to you .What job areas are you exploring ?Had a particularly bad afternoon at school but feel 'tied down ' with over twenty years in 'profession'(Ha!-like Walmart calling their shelf stackers 'associates') and with family ,mortgage etc...Hopefully well over half way through career but goal posts are being changed at drop of a hat these days
mod snip
mod warning; please stay on topic: feel free to pm mods for questions regarding mod decisions0 -
Hi. I can really sympathise with you. I'm 29 and have been teaching for the past 4 years. My health has deteriorated rapidly over the past couple of years and it is 100% to do with the job.....stress!!! That's why I have decided to quit the profession which has been a massive weight off my shoulders. My health is way more important and to be honest I've never been happier. It is unbelievable what stress can do to you. People outside of the profession really don't have a clue what work good teachers do.
Recently I returned from England where I have spent 6 months teaching History. I honestly felt the pressure I was under was insane for the money I was on. I ended up working ALL day every day and putting up with disrespect like what you experience. Obviously I got really sick as a result and it got to the point where I just didn't think it was worth it.
I also did a lot of subbing in DEIS schools before I went over and it was really tough. I have started applying for jobs outside the profession and am already getting some feedback. They have absolutely nothing to do with my qualification but working in rough schools made me really really unhappy. I really dont care what I get coz teaching has made me broke, ill and I had to move away from my friends and family just to work.
Life's too short. Your health and happiness is more important than any job!!!
We sound soooo alike. I too have experience teaching in England. Unenjoyable too.0 -
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Ya...definately think I made the right choice ytareh. I have over 2 years of experience in working in a medical device multinational so Im trying to get back in there. Did a CELT course a while back too so that's also an option. With 20 years experience could you look into other areas of education...especially if its not working for you any more? Possibly roles outside of the classroom?0
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Bobblehead Panda wrote: »Yeah I left too and I've never been happier. I haven't regretted my decision for a second. I just wasn't enjoying it and I felt that my happiness was more important.I loved my first ten years teaching. It eventually got to the stage I retired early. The nonsense just wasn't worth it anymore.
Fascinating, important thread. Thank you. Would you, or any other teachers who retired early, be willing to expand on your reasons? What especially has changed in classrooms and schools? Several teachers here have mentioned that they quit teaching after 10 or 20 years of it, not just after a couple of years. It interests me that with numerous people wanting to get into teaching and spending years working part-time hours to attain a secure job, so many teachers in secure employment are simultaneously deciding they've had enough and quitting at 50 or so years of age.
Importantly, how hard was it for people who retired early to change careers? What alternative careers, other than the few already mentioned, would teaching lend itself to? What advice would you give to people thinking of leaving?0 -
Just thought I'd say that I have been teaching for 12 yrs in a primary school in a very disadvantaged area and I am lucky enough to love my job.
I didn't start teaching till I was 40 and changing careers was the best decision I ever made. At the same time I do have two brothers teaching secondary in England who can't wait to retire.0 -
Just a follow up on this. Have a Masters course picked but many in my family think im crazy to walk away from teaching (even though I dont have a CID as of yet). Just wondering if I leave teaching and find after two years that my new option isn't working out for me can I return to teaching or will that 2 year teaching gap in my CV put off prospective employers??0
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maynooth_rules wrote: »Just a follow up on this. Have a Masters course picked but many in my family think im crazy to walk away from teaching (even though I dont have a CID as of yet). Just wondering if I leave teaching and find after two years that my new option isn't working out for me can I return to teaching or will that 2 year teaching gap in my CV put off prospective employers??
I'd say in a few years people will not enter teaching and jobs will become freely available.
I've no doubt about that0 -
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Peter Flynt wrote: »I'd say in a few years people will not enter teaching and jobs will become freely available.
I've no doubt about that
Absolutely, I'd agree with you.0 -
What exactly is it? The lack of respect kids have for teachers?
Or has the veil of the politically correct world been pulled back . revealing a breading ground for self absorbed little monsters to grow unchallenged. And Fertilized by crap parenting.
I was in the library the other day. Kid was wrecking the place and the mother congratulated him on expressing his emotions. I felt an hadouken was in order.0 -
SterlingArcher wrote: »What exactly is it? The lack of respect kids have for teachers?
The kids are, by and large, fine.
It's the Minister and the ever expanding drive to cut wages, ask for more work for no pay and the invention of BS initiatives drawn up by Senior Civil Servants with nothing to do all day.
Add in the QUANGOCRACY in Education and the fact that the teacher is now responsible for everything (and certainly not the QUANGOS). . . so let's send in the clowns inspectors.0 -
Hi. I found myself in a really difficult school where I was dealing with many of the issues the OP was and felt similarly unsupported in the broader scheme of things by management. As an aside, it's amazing the patronising smugness you can get when you tell people you work in a disadvantaged school knowing full well that if those people actually laid eyes on some of the kids you're trying to help, they'd run for the hills. But I digress.
I was grimly working my way towards a CID - the kind of attitude that says I can take this nonsense if I'm secure - when an opportunity came to move. I knew full well the risk that I was taking but I knew a part of me was wasting away in that school and it was the most important part - my love of the job. So I jumped. I'm still working my way to a CID but I'm happy. The kids are great, their parents are awesome and my colleagues are decent. Ironically, there was possibly a better staffroom vibe in the other school because people were trying to look out for each other. For anyone who's in that situation, my advice would be that if you see a better opportunity and if you can afford it, consider making the move.0 -
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I was grimly working my way towards a CID - the kind of attitude that says I can take this nonsense if I'm secure - when an opportunity came to move. I knew full well the risk that I was taking but I knew a part of me was wasting away in that school and it was the most important part - my love of the job. So I jumped. I'm still working my way to a CID but I'm happy. The kids are great, their parents are awesome and my colleagues are decent. Ironically, there was possibly a better staffroom vibe in the other school because people were trying to look out for each other. For anyone who's in that situation, my advice would be that if you see a better opportunity and if you can afford it, consider making the move.
This describes my situation perfectly too. However in my case the risk was worth it as I was made permanent after a few years. Obviously didn't know that was going to happen when I took the risk but as outlined above it was something I had to really consider in the long term0
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