Factories acting the b****x

tomwaterford

rancher wrote: »

These claims are coming to me regularly and until someone comes up with evidence, it's just dangerous pub talk and hearsay, not criticising your post but other posts were more specific as to who the target was

no bother...no offence taken:o:o
all hear to help after all....and possibly hope beef farmers wont turn their minds to sheep and flood the sheep market:D

it is dangerous talk...would only help if exporters would come forward and substantiate these claims...they are very hard to prove...these lads would be fairly up on their info (I know its hard for me to prove and remain anoymus)

I mightn't be talking to him again for months or could be even this time next year...its just come across these type of people through my line of work!!

rancher

tomwaterford wrote: »

no bother...no offence taken:o:o
all hear to help after all....and possibly hope beef farmers wont turn their minds to sheep and flood the sheep market

it is dangerous talk...would only help if exporters would come forward and substantiate these claims...they are very hard to prove...these lads would be fairly up on their info (I know its hard for me to prove and remain anoymus)

I mightn't be talking to him again for months or could be even this time next year...its just come across these type of people through my line of work!!

When someone asks me what I think of the increase that's coming in dairying, like you I say ''as long as they don't go into sheep farming I DON'T GIVE A SH..''

jt65

rancher wrote: »

When someone asks me what I think of the increase that's coming in dairying, like you I say ''as long as they don't go into sheep farming I DON'T GIVE A SH..''

remember when quotas came in and teagasc (or maybe it was acot at that time) advised dairy farmers unable to expand to get into sheep

many bit the bullet including 1 ex columnist in the findo

most of us (of my vintage anyhow :rolleyes: ) know the outcome

rancher

jt65 wrote: »

remember when quotas came in and teagasc (or maybe it was acot at that time) advised dairy farmers unable to expand to get into sheep

many bit the bullet including 1 ex columnist in the findo

most of us (of my vintage anyhow :rolleyes: ) know the outcome

Don't think they lasted very long at it, Going from supplying a protected artificial market to working in the real world (we didn't even have intervention !!!!) must have been some shock, know lots of dairy farmers that fell on their sword that way ...ha

freedominacup

rancher wrote: »

Don't think they lasted very long at it, Going from supplying a protected artificial market to working in the real world (we didn't even have intervention !!!!) must have been some shock, know lots of dairy farmers that fell on their sword that way ...ha

It was great fun at the start but once the market for breeding ewes dried up the party was over. There was grand money in buying stock off the mountain for breeding or fattening for a couple of years but every fcuker and his wife was at it then and between overpaying at the ring and too much of everything around st selling time the money was gone out of it.

rancher

freedominacup wrote: »

It was great fun at the start but once the market for breeding ewes dried up the party was over. There was grand money in buying stock off the mountain for breeding or fattening for a couple of years but every fcuker and his wife was at it then and between overpaying at the ring and too much of everything around st selling time the money was gone out of it.

At least Coveney knew enough to restrict the grassland scheme to proper sheep farmers

mf240

Nothing bugs me as much as seeing sheep on good land.

Wouldn't take a present of sheep. Wolly rats.

Base price

We are members of the IFA and have been since I started farming some 30 odd years ago.
I think that the problem is that the IFA are linked to the hips of the factories due to the levies and therefore seen to be running with the hare.
Has anyone ever suggested alternative forms of financial income for the IFA.
Are there any EU payments to partially fund the organisation.
In my early 20's I visited a young farmers conference in France. I think it was organised by a group called Cevam who at the time were funded by the EU.
Could there be some way that a percentage of our SFP be deducted at source to support an independent farming organisation???
I think as an island we should have ONE farming organisation that represents all types of farming in a fair and equitable way, independently funded from direct membership fees and other outside sources.
Maybe I am being totally naive.

rancher

Base price wrote: »

We are members of the IFA and have been since I started farming some 30 odd years ago.
I think that the problem is that the IFA are linked to the hips of the factories due to the levies and therefore seen to be running with the hare.
Has anyone ever suggested alternative forms of financial income for the IFA.
Are there any EU payments to partially fund the organisation.
In my early 20's I visited a young farmers conference in France. I think it was organised by a group called Cevam who at the time were funded by the EU.
Could there be some way that a percentage of our SFP be deducted at source to support an independent farming organisation???
I think as an island we should have ONE farming organisation that represents all types of farming in a fair and equitable way, independently funded from direct membership fees and other outside sources.
Maybe I am being totally naive.

You're naïve if you think it'll make any difference

onyerbikepat

Weekly 'throughput' of young bulls in Irish factories, from Bord Bia.
From Jan 2012 to present. It's a numbers game, I think. Just too many bulls around.

tomwaterford

mf240 wrote: »

Nothing bugs me as much as seeing sheep on good land.

Wouldn't take a present of sheep. Wolly rats.

why???

Farmer

Base price wrote: »

....I think as an island we should have ONE farming organisation that represents all types of farming in a fair and equitable way, independently funded from direct membership fees and other outside sources.
Maybe I am being totally naive.

I think the problem there is that "all types" have different interests, as demonstrated by the numerous debates here on boards about the SFP divide.

Certainly a single organization could represent us on this factory subject but in many other areas the IFA is living proof that it's not possible. I suppose what really needs to happen is each person find the organization that appears to best represent them, join it and try and influence it.

Maybe your idea is a good one in that it would make a pool of money available at SFP payment time which would focus the various organizations minds on canvassing for our subscription and, at the same time, focus our minds on who represents us best.

At the moment, there's a sort of lazy status quo - the organizations get enough subscriptions, farmers get a few benefits and discounts, many of us sit on the fence, even too lazy to ring up to stop the factory subscription if we disapprove, or to join whichever organization, attend a meeting, or stand up to make a point.

Guilty here also

Muckit

Reading the farming independent there again about this whole issue. There saying that IFA members in limerick are threatening to withhold their levy payments to the association if the situation isn't sorted out and also to throw out any farmer that is paid by the factory to finish cattle for them.

It then struck me as kinda odd. Here we have the factory paying farmers to finish cattle. They are guaranteed their money (if they hold up their end of the bargain) and finisher isn't making a loss or holding huge amounts of money tied up in stock.

Would this not be a very sound system if every finisher was being paid by the factories on contract to finish cattle they (the factories) have already bought? The inequality and manipulation only exists when the two systems are in operation.

I personally think it could be the way to go. Finishers were always saying they didn't make enough. This way the factory gets to have a hand in finishing the cattle to the correct specs.

Am l onto something or would this only worsen an already bad situation? Your views please

onyerbikepat

How come we dont have Cattle Future Pricing. They have it in the states.
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/FC/M

That way, farmers could insure against any price fluctuations. For example if prices were to drop suddenly, then the losses would be offset, to some extinct, by the profits made from selling the futures.

http://www.agmanager.info/livestock/marketing/bulletins_2/todays_market/futrmrkt.pdf

Farmer Pudsey

The issue is Muckit that somthing like over 50% of the cattle going for slaugter are from herds under 50 cattle and a massive amount of cattle are killed from farmers producing 10-20 cattle for slaughter.

The real issue is price manulipation. Traditionally the factory's issued contracts to finishers in Oct/Nov this year they did not. Instead they went out in September competed against finishers/farmers for cattle, paid over the market value( even assuming that prices had held and preformed somewhere between this year and last year). They then used these cattle to drop the price of cattle when beef prices should have risen.

There is no way the factorys could finance the purchasse(even if they wanted to) of all cattle and feed during the winter. If it happened then store sellers would only have one buyer. I do not think you would be happy if there was only one bidder at the ring for forward stores. The reality is that factorys should not be allowed to finish cattle nor should they be allowed to fill feedlots and get others to feed.

Idealy neither should they be allowed to put contract in place but even though as a small finisher and I would never get one I think we can live with that. The real killer for large finishers is that normally they would reciever 5-20ckg better than the average farmer. This in not happening this year. Every factory is virtually paying the same and to every one. Large finishers are being killed by the feed stuff they have in place. Can you imagine if you had 200K tied up in stock and 40K in feed ( silage, maize silage, beet, crimped grain etc). That would just aboutbe enough for 220 heifers or 180 bullocks. If you were finishing 3-4 times that much:eek:

Round Bale

Muckit wrote: »

Reading the farming independent there again about this whole issue. There saying that IFA members in limerick are threatening to withhold their levy payments to the association if the situation isn't sorted out and also to throw out any farmer that is paid by the factory to finish cattle for them.

It then struck me as kinda odd. Here we have the factory paying farmers to finish cattle. They are guaranteed their money (if they hold up their end of the bargain) and finisher isn't making a loss or holding huge amounts of money tied up in stock.

Would this not be a very sound system if every finisher was being paid by the factories on contract to finish cattle they (the factories) have already bought? The inequality and manipulation only exists when the two systems are in operation.

I personally think it could be the way to go. Finishers were always saying they didn't make enough. This way the factory gets to have a hand in finishing the cattle to the correct specs.

Am l onto something or would this only worsen an already bad situation? Your views please

Read this and weep Former IFA leader Dillon links up with Goodman's ABP

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/former-ifa-leader-dillon-links-up-with-goodmans-abp-29954153.html

So if the IFA boys in Limerick, want to throw out fellas in bed with Goodman, they know exactly where to start :eek:

Farmer Pudsey

Round Bale wrote: »

Read this and weep Former IFA leader Dillon links up with Goodman's ABP

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/former-ifa-leader-dillon-links-up-with-goodmans-abp-29954153.html

So if the IFA boys in Limerick, want to throw out fellas in bed with Goodman, they know exactly where to start :eek:

I say the IFA boys in limerick were referring to this

cute geoge

I can not see the point in blaming IFA for factory hooring .Meat factories operate a cartel and its only when cattle are scarce the price goes up .imo beef fatteners are becoming tiresome listening to them Get over it and move on
You should not be fattening cattle without understanding the way larry and co. work

Farmer Pudsey

cute geoge wrote: »

I can not see the point in blaming IFA for factory hooring .Meat factories operate a cartel and its only when cattle are scarce the price goes up .imo beef fatteners are becoming tiresome listening to them Get over it and move on
You should not be fattening cattle without understanding the way larry and co. work

I remember about 4-5 years ago John Shirley writing in the indo commenting on the fact that the suckler farmers was the most important( as he considered them irreplaceable) in the chain that finishers did not matter. He reckoned that if they went broke they would be replaced. I always taught that it was an ill taught out piece of sh!t.

Yes we all know that factorys are cartels howevey this is the first time in years that they have steped beyond the bounds. The reality Cutie is that if finishers go broke or lose serious money it will reflect in the price of store cattle. Next September as store farmers go to sell there cattle what if prices are back 25-40% compared to last fall.

Will you be able to move on if you sell store cattle at a way lower price tahn last year. Maybe a 500kg Charley or Limo is making 900 euro, 450kg HE and AA are making say 750 euo (next september lads will not push Lary and co as hard) and Fresian are back to 100 with there weight. It will trickle down to weanlings as well. Maybe good weanlings 1.8/kg and Fr for 250-300 euro while AA and HE making 400 euro.

Like I have constantly posted what I reap now I will sow next fall

onyerbikepat

It also means that this year a lot more Friesian bull calves will be exported. The figures show this already. Down the road this will really have an effect on supply too.
What I really can't understand though is the timing of all this. Surely this 'sort of carry-on' will push a lot of viable farms over to Dairying. Why do that? Why shoot yerself in the foot like that?

mf240

onyerbikepat wrote: »

It also means that this year a lot more Friesian bull calves will be exported. The figures show this already. Down the road this will really have an effect on supply too.
What I really can't understand though is the timing of all this. Surely this 'sort of carry-on' will push a lot of viable frams over to Dairying. Why do that?

Can't see it pushing lads into dairy a lot of beef men are older farmers some retired from dairying many more are part timers ect.

One thing that been troubling me lately. Is it legal for the ifa to take money from me without my prior permission. Why do I have to contact the factory to tell them not to take it.

rancher

Round Bale wrote: »

Read this and weep Former IFA leader Dillon links up with Goodman's ABP

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/former-ifa-leader-dillon-links-up-with-goodmans-abp-29954153.html

So if the IFA boys in Limerick, want to throw out fellas in bed with Goodman, they know exactly where to start :eek:

Don't think there'd be too many worried at the thought of being no longer a member, there's lads here threatening to leave IFA every week
I wouldn't mind feeding some, have a shed here that holds 180 cattle

rancher

mf240 wrote: »

Can't see it pushing lads into dairy a lot of beef men are older farmers some retired from dairying many more are part timers ect.

One thing that been troubling me lately. Is it legal for the ifa to take money from me without my prior permission. Why do I have to contact the factory to tell them not to take it.

''Is it legal for the IFA/ICMSA/Macra na Feirme to take money from me without my prior permission.''

Just corrected that for you, your solicitor will need the facts right:p

paddysdream

rancher wrote: »

''Is it legal for the IFA/ICMSA/Macra na Feirme to take money from me without my prior permission.''

Just corrected that for you, your solicitor will need the facts right:p

Well,is it legal?

To me it always seemed like sharp practice and when questioned ,the answer always seems to be along the lines of;

Small money for a lot of work for farmers
Shur isn't it only pennies off the factory cheque
Look at what we do for farmers
Where would ye be without us to guide you

Like I said before,believe it should be an opt in deduction and then lets see how many would sign up for it.Answers on a postcard please to Bluebell Dublin
(about 5% I reckon and thats being optimistic!)

Conmaicne Mara

mf240 wrote: »

Is it legal for the ifa to take money from me without my prior permission.

Maybe it's written into the small print of membership, haven't looked. By becoming a member you would then be agreeing to the T's&C's, and the levy.

But I would agree that it would be better to have it as an opt in, rather than an opt out.

mf240

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Maybe it's written into the small print of membership, haven't looked. By becoming a member you would then be agreeing to the T's&C's, and the levy.

But I would agree that it would be better to have it as an opt in, rather than an opt out.

Im not a member, they still take it unless told not too.

bbam

mf240 wrote: »

Two ideas don't know whether there good or bad.

Contact you local politician and ask them to make the competition authority aware of the monopoly that exists.

Export as many calves and weanlings as possible. And look into getting a store trade to Britain opened up.

Just reading through this thread.
Should someone with the right grip on the terminology and facts put a template together for an email complaining about the anti competition aspect of this situation.
Then we could all use this template to contact our politicians.
And the template could be circulated via social media for others to do likewise.

I'd say many members of the general public would be interested in contacting politicians about this in support.

Maybe conveys office email address could be included in every email so they start getting a repeated message on the problem.

Theres a savage documentary circulating in Netflix about large beef feedlots on the US. The general public would do well to see the way things go when the feedlots take over. Farmageddin I think it's called.

tanko

Even if a farmer isn't a member of the irish factories association or any other farm organisation the money is stolen from your cheque without permission unless you tell the factory not do take the money.
And you have to do this every single time you bring cattle to the factory because "the system automatically deducts the money". This practice has to be illegal.

Farmers need to be think carefully before stopping the levy, i reckon it would have disastrous consequences for fancy restaurants and hotels in Dublin and Brussels.

Farmer Pudsey

mf240 wrote: »

Can't see it pushing lads into dairy a lot of beef men are older farmers some retired from dairying many more are part timers ect.

One thing that been troubling me lately. Is it legal for the ifa to take money from me without my prior permission. Why do I have to contact the factory to tell them not to take it.

I think it will push a good few beef farmers with large land banks into dairying. There are a fair few large suckler/beef farmers with 100+ acre in one holding and it will be very tempting. Most will be able to revamp housing, building a milking parlour will be biggest expense along with roadway. A 700kg bullock or suckler cow will in most cases make the price of a dairy cow.

A 10-15% change in systems would reduce o/p by a bit. On top of that I see heifer rearing as another change coming into the system. As dairy farmers try to maximise output from milking platform and adjacent land used for silage/crop production outsourcing heifer rearing to drystock farmers will again reduce production levels.

There an old saying ''it only take a small thing to make a bull fart.''


I would not be troubled by the legality of them doing it. The highlighting of it by first Eamon O'Cuiv and now by IFA members in Limerick will cause a few members to start stoping the levy. I think it is abouy 1.25/animal. If 10% change especially if large finishers start to stop deductions 150K cattle equate to 187.5K euro. This will focus minds in the IFA. Maybe with a fall off of 3-5K members another 3-400K would not be long exceeding 500K in income.

The equivlent of 6-10 full time jobs. A few fulltime county reps, a secretary/administrator here or there, lower expenses for county officers will not be long sharpening focus.

rancher

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I think it will push a good few beef farmers with large land banks into dairying. There are a fair few large suckler/beef farmers with 100+ acre in one holding and it will be very tempting. Most will be able to revamp housing, building a milking parlour will be biggest expense along with roadway. A 700kg bullock or suckler cow will in most cases make the price of a dairy cow.

A 10-15% change in systems would reduce o/p by a bit. On top of that I see heifer rearing as another change coming into the system. As dairy farmers try to maximise output from milking platform and adjacent land used for silage/crop production outsourcing heifer rearing to drystock farmers will again reduce production levels.

There an old saying ''it only take a small thing to make a bull fart.''


I would not be troubled by the legality of them doing it. The highlighting of it by first Eamon O'Cuiv and now by IFA members in Limerick will cause a few members to start stoping the levy. I think it is abouy 1.25/animal. If 10% change especially if large finishers start to stop deductions 150K cattle equate to 187.5K euro. This will focus minds in the IFA. Maybe with a fall off of 3-5K members another 3-400K would not be long exceeding 500K in income.

The equivlent of 6-10 full time jobs. A few fulltime county reps, a secretary/administrator here or there, lower expenses for county officers will not be long sharpening focus.

Your last line is where your whole posts falls. none of us are dependent on it, yes I do it because I like to be involved, I also do it because it educated me how to negotiate, and maximised my CPO compo, also helped get compo for a bad dog attack on my sheep, also maximising my SFP.
But at the same time it can't cost us money, our time away from the farm is too valuable, expenses wouldn't cover it if something went wrong at home so I'd just walk away, and I'd say most would too, so yes I'd say it would sharpen my focus