Factories acting the b****x

Farmer Pudsey · 20-03-2014 1:35pm

Mad4simmental wrote: »

I wonder would the Irish Competition Law have anything to say about these feedlots and having an affect on the market? Probably pi55ing into the wind but surely it can't be fully legal to influence the market like that.

IFA want to know nothing about this and it is goping to be a huge issue going forward. In the USA big meat processors are not allowed to own feedlots. Have heard that some processors are buying calf's (AA&HE) and giving to rearers to brinf to stores for them. IFA afraid that they will upset store sellers, however price control by factory's will drop prices to all sectors. Rumour has it that ABP are setting up there own mill to process ration in the midlands/east of the country.

Mad4simmental · 20-03-2014 2:28pm

Rumour has it that ABP are setting up there own mill to process ration in the midlands/east of the country.

We have to stand up as a group and put a stop to this. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. Fair annof the market is changing and lower carces weights are required, farmers have to be able to flex and bend to go with the market. But what's the point in trying to go up against these big company's that are starting to process ration, feed big numbers of cattle, kill them and run the main beef markets in Ireland?
It's going to be a very searious problem down the road that will affect EVERYONE with cattle no matter what sector we are in.

rancher · 20-03-2014 2:35pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

IFA want to know nothing about this and it is goping to be a huge issue going forward. In the USA big meat processors are not allowed to own feedlots. Have heard that some processors are buying calf's (AA&HE) and giving to rearers to brinf to stores for them. IFA afraid that they will upset store sellers, however price control by factory's will drop prices to all sectors. Rumour has it that ABP are setting up there own mill to process ration in the midlands/east of the country.

Has there been any resolution passed to this affect from any county, that you're so confident of that decision. I've certainly heard nothing about it

Red Cloud · 20-03-2014 2:49pm

If beef producers are pinning hope on regulatory action by any Irish government contrary to the interests of the Beef Barons we are duller of mind than the cattle in our sheds. Shutters will finally come down when Simon gets his way with the two movements.

freedominacup · 20-03-2014 4:08pm

Red Cloud wrote: »

. Shutters will finally come down when Simon gets his way with the two movements.

Why? At best there's 250-300 euro of a margin in a beef animal brought from birth to slaughter. How many ways can you split this? The margin doesn't increase by moving these animals from place to place. It could be a godsend to stop all of these movements.

Farmer Pudsey · 20-03-2014 4:20pm

freedominacup wrote: »

Why? At best there's 250-300 euro of a margin in a beef animal brought from birth to slaughter. How many ways can you split this? The margin doesn't increase by moving these animals from place to place. It could be a godsend to stop all of these movements.

No point in cattle going through a mart 3-4 times( cost is about50-64 euro) and being carried to and from ( cost 30-40 euro). Along with that you have health issues (say 15/head) and tanglers trying to take a margin (50-100)/animal over 4 movements. Add to this maybe 30-50 kgs weight loss(60 euro)This can take away 160-200/head without adding any benifit to the general industry. It means that some farmers have to take a loss along the line.

Most cattle idealy at max should have 3 owners. From birth herd to rearing herd and then a finishing herd. No point in lads carrying cattle around the country for a spin, dragged from one mart to another without any added value.

Muckit · 20-03-2014 5:22pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The horse meat scandal forced the supermarkets to make sure the processors supplied what it says on the pack..

I still have a lot of concerns about this whole issue. It seems to have been put to bed now that it's not in the news, but there are a lot of loose ends that were never tied up.

What is going to happen to all the unwanted horses in the country? A lot of them can't be legally slaughtered now. They have to go somewhere. And they are.

The customer isn't always right. All this looking for cheap food will inevitably bring about unsavoury practices. Which will mean what you get isn't what you think you are getting. Dyed turkey being passed off as shredded ham, poorer quality beef being passed off as lamb.... where does it end?

Muckit · 20-03-2014 5:25pm

What happens if there is a bad year like in 2012 and a farmer wants to off load cattle because he is tight on fodder? All well and good when everything is going grand but things can't be too rigid

larrymiller · 20-03-2014 6:17pm

Do any of yee think that with high exports on calfs this year will help us down the line? This year we have to much cattle because farmers out bid exporters!
But that's not happening this year!

Red Cloud · 20-03-2014 7:08pm

Beef animals are a marketable commodity in a free market. Beef processors screw finishers by pulling strokes of many kinds within that free market using all legal means.
The ironic joke going forward may consist of Beef Barons continuing to enjoy the spoils of that free market while the weanling to store feeder and the despised "tangler" and mart is deprived of the right to participate in that free market by the government intervening and skewing the market via artificial movement control.
Do you really think that the guy at the ringside with the ash plant and dealer boots is the biggest villian on this stage,
they might be a handy small town target but someone is missing the big picture.

TUBBY · 20-03-2014 7:44pm

Agree with some sentiments here re: movements but we are told it is the consumer who dictates what we should produce with regards weights etc.

I can buy an argument based on consumer requirements etc being used to penalise but what does it matter a sh1te to the person eating a steak if it was in a mart twice or three times. Does it taste different. Change for change sake imo.

freedominacup · 20-03-2014 7:49pm

Red Cloud wrote: »

Beef animals are a marketable commodity in a free market. Beef processors screw finishers by pulling strokes of many kinds within that free market using all legal means.
The ironic joke going forward may consist of Beef Barons continuing to enjoy the spoils of that free market while the weanling to store feeder and the despised "tangler" and mart is deprived of the right to participate in that free market by the government intervening and skewing the market via artificial movement control.
Do you really think that the guy at the ringside with the ash plant and dealer boots is the biggest villian on this stage,
they might be a handy small town target but someone is missing the big picture.

Two of the biggest problems in the beef industry are the number of movements and the notion of "storing" cattle. Posters are constantly lamenting the difficulties of getting cattle to X weight at y age but see nothing wrong with an animal essentially going backwards for a period of months at different times. What the hell is weanling to store? The good suckler farmers posting here are getting weanlings to 350kgs plus at eight or nine months there's no reason why they aren't on a hook in another eight months. How anyone thinks it's a plan to keep them around for the bones of another 2 years and move them 2/3 times is beyond me. Even to get them into stupidly high weights they will hardly be on maintenance growth rates for that period.

Round Bale · 20-03-2014 8:08pm

TUBBY wrote: »

Agree with some sentiments here re: movements but we are told it is the consumer who dictates what we should produce with regards weights etc.

I can buy an argument based on consumer requirements etc being used to penalise but what does it matter a sh1te to the person eating a steak if it was in a mart twice or three times. Does it taste different. Change for change sake imo.

This movements thing is a load of bollox.
It's ok to pick up €10 worth of fruit, made up of oranges from Spain, kiwi fruit from NZ, etc, etc.
Beef moving from Clare to finishing lands in Meath, and killed up the road will soon have too much movement to satisfy consumer demand.
Who is fooling who here?

Farmer Pudsey · 20-03-2014 8:22pm

Round Bale wrote: »

This movements thing is a load of bollox.
It's ok to pick up €10 worth of fruit, made up of oranges from Spain, kiwi fruit from NZ, etc, etc.
Beef moving from Clare to finishing lands in Meath, and killed up the road will soon have too much movement to satisfy consumer demand.
Who is fooling who here?

There is not enough money in cattle for the number of movements involved. Ever time an animal moves from one herd to another through a mart, it costs minimum about 16 euro(mart fees) add transport and this becomes minimum 30 euro. A dealer taking a margin 20 euro. The number of movements is as much a supermarket spec as anything else. There is a supermarket in the UK that wants the calf that leaves a dairy farm to go straight to a rearing/finishing unit. No other movement.

Dealers control the flow of cattle in smaller west of Ireland marts. If I go west to buy cattle they know that I cannot be there every week, so they squeeze out the lad that travels to buy cattle. Most buy the animal and sell him in a mart 50-60 miles away within a week. They add no value to the animal and a good few only let them lose a bit of weight.

Damo810 · 20-03-2014 8:44pm

TUBBY wrote: »

Agree with some sentiments here re: movements but we are told it is the consumer who dictates what we should produce with regards weights etc.

I can buy an argument based on consumer requirements etc being used to penalise but what does it matter a sh1te to the person eating a steak if it was in a mart twice or three times. Does it taste different. Change for change sake imo.

Never once have I seen or heard of anyone complaining about the quality of meat (if there is all that difference between bulls and bullocks). I think, in the current situation most consumers want cheap meat, not just something that fits in a tray and says heifer on it.

Red Cloud · 20-03-2014 8:46pm

Let every man be free to be governed by his own calculator...
Shure we'll spit and shake on three movements.
Tuppence for the jobber, and we'll go for a glass a stout.

Round Bale · 20-03-2014 9:24pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There is not enough money in cattle for the number of movements involved. Ever time an animal moves from one herd to another through a mart, it costs minimum about 16 euro(mart fees) add transport and this becomes minimum 30 euro. A dealer taking a margin 20 euro. The number of movements is as much a supermarket spec as anything else. There is a supermarket in the UK that wants the calf that leaves a dairy farm to go straight to a rearing/finishing unit. No other movement.

Dealers control the flow of cattle in smaller west of Ireland marts. If I go west to buy cattle they know that I cannot be there every week, so they squeeze out the lad that travels to buy cattle. Most buy the animal and sell him in a mart 50-60 miles away within a week. They add no value to the animal and a good few only let them lose a bit of weight.

Take this logic to its ultimate. Only one movement allowed. Farm to abattoir.
Dairy guy finishes his own. Every other guy, breeds and finishes his own.
No more jobbers, no more marts.

One thing will never change though.
Processors and supermarkets will still screw the producer.

Damo810 · 20-03-2014 9:40pm

Round Bale wrote: »

Take this logic to its ultimate. Only one movement allowed. Farm to abattoir.
Dairy guy finishes his own. Every other guy, breeds and finishes his own.
No more jobbers, no more marts.

One thing will never change though.
Processors and supermarkets will still screw the producer.

Dont give them ideas!!!

In all seriousness this will never happen, 4 movements suits everyone, it's fine for lads in the south where you have 1000 calves a week to choose from at bandon and the likes but theres is far less calves for sale around the west where a large amount of calves are brought up annually by dealers.

Saying that, there isn't enough in it for 4 lads. If you take it the dairy farmer is only covering his costs for the calf (if that) dealer has to have his bit for diesel and profit, whoever brings it to store and the finisher.

No matter what you say about the number of movements though, we're getting royally screwed by factories over our beef products, and change should come there before restricting farmers to 2 movements.

farmernewbie · 20-03-2014 9:46pm

Round Bale wrote: »

Take this logic to its ultimate. Only one movement allowed. Farm to abattoir.
Dairy guy finishes his own. Every other guy, breeds and finishes his own.
No more jobbers, no more marts.

One thing will never change though.
Processors and supermarkets will still screw the producer.

Agreed, what difference does it make to the factory if they have 10 movements as long as they are under the right age and the right weight.

dzer2 · 20-03-2014 9:51pm

farmernewbie wrote: »

Agreed, what difference does it make to the factory if they have 10 movements as long as they are under the right age and the right weight.

the factories have no idea of the age of an animal only for whats on the cards.

farmernewbie · 20-03-2014 10:21pm

dzer2 wrote: »

the factories have no idea of the age of an animal only for whats on the cards.

If its just from the cards how do they know the number of movements?

dzer2 · 20-03-2014 11:10pm

farmernewbie wrote: »

If its just from the cards how do they know the number of movements?

Cmms will tell you if you enter the number

farmernewbie · 20-03-2014 11:16pm

dzer2 wrote: »

Cmms will tell you if you enter the number

Have the factories access to tell them number of movements of each animal they receive?

Farmer Pudsey · 20-03-2014 11:59pm

rancher wrote: »

Has there been any resolution passed to this affect from any county, that you're so confident of that decision. I've certainly heard nothing about it

Rancher you and I know that there will be nothing done about this for two reasons. Lads selling cattle in the mart think that Goodman is an idiot buying cattle at a price that other finishers cannot make money at. The reality is that this is short term gain. However the IFA is not going out explaining this to farmers.

The other reason is and we all know is for all there bluster the IFA is afraid that if they upset the processors that they will stop the farm organisations levy. The only thing is for finishers to start to stop this levy.

As the yanks said to the British no taxation without representation. I think the upper echelons of the organisation have lost touch with what is happening. I know you will disagree. This crap about trying to get action from the bottom up is one of the oldest tricks in trade union(which is all the IFA is) history, it allows you to stifle anything that might upset the status quo. But like Trade Unions they will find that membership income and levy's will disappear,

rancher · 21-03-2014 12:49am

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Rancher you and I know that there will be nothing done about this for two reasons. Lads selling cattle in the mart think that Goodman is an idiot buying cattle at a price that other finishers cannot make money at. The reality is that this is short term gain. However the IFA is not going out explaining this to farmers.

The other reason is and we all know is for all there bluster the IFA is afraid that if they upset the processors that they will stop the farm organisations levy. The only thing is for finishers to start to stop this levy.

As the yanks said to the British no taxation without representation. I think the upper echelons of the organisation have lost touch with what is happening. I know you will disagree. This crap about trying to get action from the bottom up is one of the oldest tricks in trade union(which is all the IFA is) history, it allows you to stifle anything that might upset the status quo. But like Trade Unions they will find that membership income and levy's will disappear,

The only way the factories will be brought into line will be action by the farmers themselves, factories have no reason to change anything they're doing.
Private enterprise doesn't respond to lobbying, fair dues to the factories, five or six of them can control 50000 farmers.
If a county exec passes a resolution, it means that its not BS and its not wasting a national commitees time.....its just a way of ensuring a national commitees time is spent efficiently

You're fairly sad if you think farmers spend days in Dublin worrying about whether factories collect our levies

TITANIUM. · 21-03-2014 2:25am

rancher wrote: »

The only way the factories will be brought into line will be action by the farmers themselves,fair dues to the factories, five or six of them can control 50000 farmers.

Jesus H Christ. If we can't depend on our association to take some kind of meaningful action when a situation such as this arises why do we even need one. That's why lads are elected and paid to do a fcuking job. The IFA top table wouldn't know leadership if it hit them in the face.
Rancher it's simply not good enough to keep saying "oh we did this and but we organised that, but not enough of ye turned up". Do you ever ask yourself why? Leaders need to motivate and instill confidence in those they are leading. I wouldn't follow these lads accross the Street let alone into battle. Which is what this should be. What's going on (Market manipulation) is borderline illegal and a complete and utter disgrace. As has been the IFA's response. Even our former leaders are getting in on the act. That shows where there moral compass points and what loyalties they have or ever had, But the people of limerick told him what they thought of him in the general election fair play to them.
I myself haven't suffered from this debacle as of yet because I don't finish cattle but at least I can see it effects all of us in the long term with a trickle down effect. Ye seem to be paying lip service to the issue and not recognising the damage its doing to our sector.
These people volunteered to lead so fcuking lead, don't follow. If they were making some kind of reasonable effort and were men,men could follow. Id be doing whatever they asked of me. But this excuse of a crowd, No thanks.
Time to stop defending yerselfs and start defending us.

rancher · 21-03-2014 7:27am

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Jesus H Christ. If we can't depend on our association to take some kind of meaningful action when a situation such as this arises why do we even need one. That's why lads are elected and paid to do a fcuking job. The IFA top table wouldn't know leadership if it hit them in the face.
Rancher it's simply not good enough to keep saying "oh we did this and but we organised that, but not enough of ye turned up". Do you ever ask yourself why? Leaders need to motivate and instill confidence in those they are leading. I wouldn't follow these lads accross the Street let alone into battle. Which is what this should be. What's going on (Market manipulation) is borderline illegal and a complete and utter disgrace. As has been the IFA's response. Even our former leaders are getting in on the act. That shows where there moral compass points and what loyalties they have or ever had, But the people of limerick told him what they thought of him in the general election fair play to them.
I myself haven't suffered from this debacle as of yet because I don't finish cattle but at least I can see it effects all of us in the long term with a trickle down effect. Ye seem to be paying lip service to the issue and not recognising the damage its doing to our sector.
These people volunteered to lead so fcuking lead, don't follow. If they were making some kind of reasonable effort and were men,men could follow. Id be doing whatever they asked of me. But this excuse of a crowd, No thanks.
Time to stop defending yerselfs and start defending us.

There's three organisations out there, and none of them are being supported, if farmers put in 5% of the effort that Henry Burns etc puts in, we might get some where... Farmers not bothering to work for any organisation and then think they can blame the organisation...wtf....refusing to pay levies is only shooting yourself in the foot, won't matter to me.
I've got huge benefit out of the organisation and really only paying it back now

TITANIUM. · 21-03-2014 8:19am

rancher wrote: »

There's three organisations out there, and none of them are being supported, if farmers put in 5% of the effort that Henry Burns etc puts in, we might get some where... Farmers not bothering to work for any organisation and then think they can blame the organisation...wtf....refusing to pay levies is only shooting yourself in the foot, won't matter to me.
I've got huge benefit out of the organisation and really only paying it back now

Well good for you. Amazing what can happen when your in the click.
You avoided the point again Rancher. You and your ilk seem to think action is up to the man on the ground. Instead of our elected representatives. Its a reflection on the leadership if ye think the grassroots are not supporting ye. Your always very quick to blame your members instead of thinking maybe were the problem. Im not saying that the whole bushel of apple's is rotten but as a group simple do not inspire confidence. Very hard to follow lads you don't have faith in.
Funny you jumped straight away to levies, I hadn't mentioned it.
If your going to bother to respond please don't throw out the same old reteric.
I could have posted your last comment for you. . Same old stuff. Ignoring the fact that what your listening to are the views of your members. You should be taking them on board instead of simply rubbishing them.
I don't care about other organisations, there not my representative association.
Lead (REALLY LEAD) and we will follow

rancher · 21-03-2014 8:21am

TITANIUM. wrote: »

These people volunteered to lead so fcuking lead, don't follow. If they were making some kind of reasonable effort and were men,men could follow. .

Cop yourself on, we lead the charge on the CAP reform and there was loads of protests in Dublin and I drove past loads of farmers places on the way to Dublin who were getting €500- €1000ha SFP and they didn't even bother going 30mls to protect it. what would they be getting now if Ciolos got his way.....€300/ha.
I'm definitely different than you in that if I have a genuine grieviance, I wouldn't be lying back and complaining on a discussion forum...ffs
I will do something for you, I don't agree that factories are doing any thing illegal but if another county raises the issue, I'll support it

I can't go to meetings and say anonymous poster on boards claims......!!!!!!.you could be anyone, you could even be getting over €500/ha sfp and still complaining about IFA.
If a good suggestion come up, I'd probably claim it as my own

Farmer Pudsey · 21-03-2014 8:36am

rancher wrote: »

The only way the factories will be brought into line will be action by the farmers themselves, factories have no reason to change anything they're doing.
Private enterprise doesn't respond to lobbying, fair dues to the factories, five or six of them can control 50000 farmers.
If a county exec passes a resolution, it means that its not BS and its not wasting a national commitees time.....its just a way of ensuring a national commitees time is spent efficiently

You're fairly sad if you think farmers spend days in Dublin worrying about whether factories collect our levies

rancher wrote: »

There's three organisations out there, and none of them are being supported, if farmers put in 5% of the effort that Henry Burns etc puts in, we might get some where... Farmers not bothering to work for any organisation and then think they can blame the organisation...wtf....refusing to pay levies is only shooting yourself in the foot, won't matter to me.
I've got huge benefit out of the organisation and really only paying it back now

Rancher what you are saying then is that, it is from the bottom the IFA must be lead. That really there is no point in electing a President, Vice President or regional Presidents. It is also coming across that if the IFA discovered a Mart group, milk processor or meat processor doing something illegal or that they might suspect is against the law they would do nothing if effected one section of the organisation. This bull about farmers not supporting the organisation, any organisation that discovers this and has done nothing about it for let say 5 years is starting to decay.

The reality if they referred this to the CA and it rules that it is not illegal well and good they have tried, However it comes across that they are either afraid of upsetting some members or that maybe they are afraid of a lash back from the factory;s in the form of a refusal to collect levy's ( not sure of the split or the level of withholding) but it is a potential 2.25 million or maybe LG pays the levy as weel on the cattle out of his feedlot. Last Christmas it is reputed that he had 15+ cattle in feedlots so 22.5K+ in levys he paid.

What is happening is market manulipation IMO. This is illegal at the very least it would highlight the issue without uosetting ordinary people. However I suppose Heanry like every other IFA leader must organise a tractorcade to Dublin.

Factories acting the b****x

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