Factories acting the b****x

towzer2010 · 21-03-2014 4:42pm

rancher wrote: »

Nothing stopping you going to whatever they're arranging. over 250 in this county asked to go to Kepak Clonee a month ago....wouldn't like to tell you how many went.

Quick question rancher. Does the IFA have an official position/policy with regard to what's happening to the beef industry at present.

I cant seem to find one on their website.

coolshannagh28 · 21-03-2014 4:43pm

I think that while the IFA may have a case to answer on representation of the majority of farmers there is relatively little they can do with regards to Processor manipulation of the market . One thing that is obvious is that farmers are becoming accustomed to holding finished stock off, I have a pen on hold for three weeks now ,this is a weapon which can be turned on the factories if used in a coordinated way at the right time . A large scale boycott or withholding of stock for a month or 6 weeks at a strategic time could yield results.

I said · 21-03-2014 4:46pm

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

I think that while the IFA may have a case to answer on representation of the majority of farmers there is relatively little they can do with regards to Processor manipulation of the market . One thing that is obvious is that farmers are becoming accustomed to holding finished stock off, I have a pen on hold for three weeks now ,this is a weapon which can be turned on the factories if used in a coordinated way at the right time . A large scale boycott or withholding of stock for a month or 6 weeks at a strategic time could yield results.

Aye but there is always one who'll take what there giving soon after happened before the last time the IFA did anything

rancher · 21-03-2014 5:14pm

towzer2010 wrote: »

Quick question rancher. Does the IFA have an official position/policy with regard to what's happening to the beef industry at present.

I cant seem to find one on their website.

wouldn't think so.....everything changing is this by the day, seems to be loads of press releases
Factories are changing ''in spec'' by the hour

Robson99 · 21-03-2014 11:07pm

Protests in Dublin arent worth a fiddlers fcuk. Photo shoot, big steak and a few beers for the lads.
The IFA need to get the factories and the minister for agri round the table and thrash it out. See whats legal and whats not. Thats what leadership should be about
Every one finishing cattle should immediately stop the IFA levy / contribution until they get the finger out and start talks with the relevant bodies

rancher · 21-03-2014 11:53pm

Robson99 wrote: »

Protests in Dublin arent worth a fiddlers fcuk. Photo shoot, big steak and a few beers for the lads.
The IFA need to get the factories and the minister for agri round the table and thrash it out. See whats legal and whats not. Thats what leadership should be about
Every one finishing cattle should immediately stop the IFA levy / contribution until they get the finger out and start talks with the relevant bodies

Coveney should be able to open up the English market but
Coveney says its not his job, That's what the Dublin protest was about, factories have no need to talk, plenty of '' talks'' going on. I know if I was a factory I'd only be talking to the customers.
Seems they can't keep the phones answered from suppliers, great position to be in, but the tide always turns.
When was farming any different.

rancher · 22-03-2014 12:07am

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

I think that while the IFA may have a case to answer on representation of the majority of farmers there is relatively little they can do with regards to Processor manipulation of the market . One thing that is obvious is that farmers are becoming accustomed to holding finished stock off, I have a pen on hold for three weeks now ,this is a weapon which can be turned on the factories if used in a coordinated way at the right time . A large scale boycott or withholding of stock for a month or 6 weeks at a strategic time could yield results.

I personally got such abuse for trying to organise the very same thing ten years ago, that I swore I'd never bother about beef price again....and I don't.
The only people who will think that's a great idea is those with no cattle to sell.
But I do agree with your Idea but factories know farmers don't have the courage for a fight

tomwaterford · 22-03-2014 12:14am

rancher wrote: »

Coveney should be able to open up the English market but
Coveney says its not his job, That's what the Dublin protest was about, factories have no need to talk, plenty of '' talks'' going on. I know if I was a factory I'd only be talking to the customers.
Seems they can't keep the phones answered from suppliers, great position to be in, but the tide always turns.
When was farming any different.

I may be wrong....but did the Beef Barron not put an end to export trade by saying he would refuse to process the offal from irish cattle killed in England...and since he processes a large proportion of offal from England pretty much pulled the rug from that market???

*this is what I was told by some very upset reasonably large scale finishers (100-500 cattle)...im sure they would know

Farmer Pudsey · 22-03-2014 12:47am

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

I think that while the IFA may have a case to answer on representation of the majority of farmers there is relatively little they can do with regards to Processor manipulation of the market . One thing that is obvious is that farmers are becoming accustomed to holding finished stock off, I have a pen on hold for three weeks now ,this is a weapon which can be turned on the factories if used in a coordinated way at the right time . A large scale boycott or withholding of stock for a month or 6 weeks at a strategic time could yield results.

Impossible to do. It grand if you are feeding cattle a bit of silage and small amounts of ration. However cattle on adlib have to be sold after 100 days, you could not hold six weeks longer. The next issue is you would back up 150K cattle. factory's have between 2-3 weeks of meat in different stages of processing. They would also diver cattle away from the contenintal market towards the UK. They would up there slaughter rate in the UK

The next thing is the factory's would slaughter all there own stock about a weeks supply. With 150K cattle backed up the factory's ould start there games again after the end. Over 30 months an issue , too fat or heavy cattle an issue, you will have to wait 1, 2, 3, 4, maybe 5 weeks to slaughter cattle. You are running into the summer so they would really play Molly Bawn.

rancher wrote: »

Coveney should be able to open up the English market but
Coveney says its not his job, That's what the Dublin protest was about, factories have no need to talk, plenty of '' talks'' going on. I know if I was a factory I'd only be talking to the customers.
Seems they can't keep the phones answered from suppliers, great position to be in, but the tide always turns.
When was farming any different.

And in a way he is right. Some British supermarkets stated last year that ''they had no interest in Nomadic cattle''. That is the expression they used. Larry and Dawn who control a huge share of the UK slaughtering capacity have stated that they will not kill these cattle. The supermarkets are determined not to allow this. Again it is something that both the British and Irish competition authority should investigate ans see if it is market manipulation.

It comes down to this it is market manipulation and there is a body for investigating it.

Round Bale · 22-03-2014 1:28am

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Impossible to do. It grand if you are feeding cattle a bit of silage and small amounts of ration. However cattle on adlib have to be sold after 100 days, you could not hold six weeks longer. The next issue is you would back up 150K cattle. factory's have between 2-3 weeks of meat in different stages of processing. They would also diver cattle away from the contenintal market towards the UK. They would up there slaughter rate in the UK

The next thing is the factory's would slaughter all there own stock about a weeks supply. With 150K cattle backed up the factory's ould start there games again after the end. Over 30 months an issue , too fat or heavy cattle an issue, you will have to wait 1, 2, 3, 4, maybe 5 weeks to slaughter cattle. You are running into the summer so they would really play Molly Bawn.

And in a way he is right. Some British supermarkets stated last year that ''they had no interest in Nomadic cattle''. That is the expression they used. Larry and Dawn who control a huge share of the UK slaughtering capacity have stated that they will not kill these cattle. The supermarkets are determined not to allow this. Again it is something that both the British and Irish competition authority should investigate ans see if it is market manipulation.

It comes down to this it is market manipulation and there is a body for investigating it.

We need a whistleblower!!

rancher · 22-03-2014 7:09am

[QUOTE=tomwaterford;89570741]I may be wrong....but did the Beef Barron not put an end to export trade by saying he would refuse to process the offal from irish cattle killed in England...and since he processes a large proportion of offal from England pretty much pulled the rug from that market???

*this is what I was told by some very upset reasonably large scale finishers (100-500 cattle)...im sure they would know[/QUOTE]

I'd imagine if you could get that in writing, there'd be a case to be answered

Sheep breeder · 22-03-2014 8:22am

rancher wrote: »

I personally got such abuse for trying to organise the very same thing ten years ago, that I swore I'd never bother about beef price again....and I don't.
The only people who will think that's a great idea is those with no cattle to sell.
But I do agree with your Idea but factories know farmers don't have the courage for a fight

I would have to agree with this quote about farmers sticking together and fighting,when a stoppage would start the men saying they are for it are the ones that are looking for a price for when the gates open to be a head of every body else,and how many fellas tell they are loyal to such a factory and would go no where else,and then the dairy man who sell foe the sake of selling it.
Farmers can not stick together fact,they all think that the next man is getting a better deal than him.
As for the ifa they are all about the individual and where they are on the ladder to the top and how quick they can get up and get the photo taken,
The should rename them as the selfles or me Fein.

rancher · 22-03-2014 8:48am

Sheep breeder wrote: »

I would have to agree with this quote about farmers sticking together and fighting,when a stoppage would start the men saying they are for it are the ones that are looking for a price for when the gates open to be a head of every body else,and how many fellas tell they are loyal to such a factory and would go no where else,and then the dairy man who sell foe the sake of selling it.
Farmers can not stick together fact,they all think that the next man is getting a better deal than him.
As for the ifa they are all about the individual and where they are on the ladder to the top and how quick they can get up and get the photo taken,
The should rename them as the selfles or me Fein.

That's totally unfair, most of the work I'm involved in will never get the papers. Three farmers had problems since Christmas here, all sorted now, Two had legal input, and it was definitely us that worked out the compromise, one was heading for the high court, The third was with a state body and resolved, If I was a me Feiner would I be involved in things like that, suppose you think we should publicise these.... ffs,
When I see the help that's given in debt cases and relate it to my own case 30 yrs ago, it sickens me to know that help was available then, of course I was believing the begrudgers and didn't bother looking for it

Dubl07 · 22-03-2014 9:39am

Great thread.

As a consumer with an interest in ethical production of meat, I'm going to weigh in if you don't mind.

Factories - the big ones - are far from my ideal notion of how I'd like the animal producing my breakfast/lunch/dinner to end its days. I'd much prefer smaller abattoirs with lower stress environments. I'd prefer fewer cattle movements to reduce the stress on the animals. I pay extra for free range chicken and eggs, outdoor pork etc. When I buy beef, I've often no idea of the gender of the animal or its age or breed.

I'd suggest that beef farmers should use social media like boards and other forums to engage directly with the end user - the consumer - and use the power of communication to educate both parties involved.

towzer2010 · 22-03-2014 9:56am

Dubl07 wrote: »

Great thread.

As a consumer with an interest in ethical production of meat, I'm going to weigh in if you don't mind.

Factories - the big ones - are far from my ideal notion of how I'd like the animal producing my breakfast/lunch/dinner to end its days. I'd much prefer smaller abattoirs with lower stress environments. I'd prefer fewer cattle movements to reduce the stress on the animals. I pay extra for free range chicken and eggs, outdoor pork etc. When I buy beef, I've often no idea of the gender of the animal or its age or breed.

I'd suggest that beef farmers should use social media like boards and other forums to engage directly with the end user - the consumer - and use the power of communication to educate both parties involved.

Good idea dubl07 and in the main if you are buying from your local butcher then you are probably sourcing your meat from the smaller abattoirs and they will be able to tell you the animals gender, history etc.

The beef factories are really only interested in the supermarket contracts. When you have large supermarket chains and beef factories controlling everything that as usual ends with the primary producer getting squeezed.

Conmaicne Mara · 22-03-2014 10:02am

Dubl07 wrote: »

Great thread.

As a consumer with an interest in ethical production of meat, I'm going to weigh in if you don't mind.

Factories - the big ones - are far from my ideal notion of how I'd like the animal producing my breakfast/lunch/dinner to end its days. I'd much prefer smaller abattoirs with lower stress environments. I'd prefer fewer cattle movements to reduce the stress on the animals. I pay extra for free range chicken and eggs, outdoor pork etc. When I buy beef, I've often no idea of the gender of the animal or its age or breed.

I'd suggest that beef farmers should use social media like boards and other forums to engage directly with the end user - the consumer - and use the power of communication to educate both parties involved.

Applaud you for your efforts in buying good food, but the problem is most people don't give a fiddlers where their food comes from, they might say they do for the soundbite on TV or radio but it comes down to price and convenience when they're going about their private daily business. Supermarkets have those two aspects in hand with their scale and power of purchase and locations with parking. Most of the masses want a one stop shop, out of the car, trolley, pay, back in the car, home. I believe the biggest problem here in Ireland is a lack of a food culture, I'll restrain myself from comparing us to another European Republic but we all know who I mean. Until that's changed, if ever, it'll still be the same merry go round with producers, middle men, and consumers.

Farmer Pudsey · 22-03-2014 11:09am

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Applaud you for your efforts in buying good food, but the problem is most people don't give a fiddlers where their food comes from, they might say they do for the soundbite on TV or radio but it comes down to price and convenience when they're going about their private daily business. Supermarkets have those two aspects in hand with their scale and power of purchase and locations with parking. Most of the masses want a one stop shop, out of the car, trolley, pay, back in the car, home. I believe the biggest problem here in Ireland is a lack of a food culture, I'll restrain myself from comparing us to another European Republic but we all know who I mean. Until that's changed, if ever, it'll still be the same merry go round with producers, middle men, and consumers.

It is all very well comparing us to another European country. However only less than 10% of our beef that is produced in Ireland is used in Ireland. Because of the amount exported Irish consumers will have little or no effect on the price. Because of this small abattoirs have little or no influence on price.

To put it in perceptive we exported 466K tons of beef (about 6 0r7 biggest exported world wide) and 200K animals (potentially if finished here another 72K tons) if finished here in 2013. So farmers have little or no control of sales.

On top of this in 2013 we exported about 45K Tons of Lamb and 185K tons of pork. That was 2.5 billion euro's in meat exports. Of that 2.09 billion was beef that was slaughtered. I did a calculation per kg the average price was 4.54/kg. As this was across cows, bulls etc and a lot was from dairy animals did farmers average 4/kg

sheebadog · 22-03-2014 1:43pm

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Applaud you for your efforts in buying good food, but the problem is most people don't give a fiddlers where their food comes from, they might say they do for the soundbite on TV or radio but it comes down to price and convenience when they're going about their private daily business. Supermarkets have those two aspects in hand with their scale and power of purchase and locations with parking. Most of the masses want a one stop shop, out of the car, trolley, pay, back in the car, home. I believe the biggest problem here in Ireland is a lack of a food culture, I'll restrain myself from comparing us to another European Republic but we all know who I mean. Until that's changed, if ever, it'll still be the same merry go round with producers, middle men, and consumers.

You're on the ball there Con. However those discerning European republicans that you speak of hold Irish beef up there with the best in the world.

Irish beef is really well regarded. Bord Bia have done a good job.

tanko · 22-03-2014 3:05pm

sheebadog wrote: »

You're on the ball there Con. However those discerning European republicans that you speak of hold Irish beef up there with the best in the world.

Irish beef is really well regarded. Bord Bia have done a good job.

I'm getting a bit fed up hearing about how highly regarded irish beef is. If it's so good why is it that farmers get paid such a crap price for it? Factories are quick to tell us that they can't sell the stuff.

At the moment in Ireland lorry loads of sides of beef are being brought in from Poland, boned here and being sold on as irish beef.

It was well known in the beef industry that horses meat was being sold as beef, yet not one person or company in the beef industry has been punished. This is because the supermarkets and regulatory authorities knew well what was going on, but sure once plenty of money was being made by the factories and supermarkets a blind eye was turned. This is Ireland after all.

As for Bord Bia doing a good job, where were they while all this was going on?

Anyone who is surprised by what the factories are up to at the moment should have a read of the beef tribunal report to see what they are capable of and how worried they are about how highly regarded irish beef is around the world.

rancher · 22-03-2014 3:55pm

tanko wrote: »

I'm getting a bit fed up hearing about how highly regarded irish beef is. If it's so good why is it that farmers get paid such a crap price for it? Factories are quick to tell us that they can't sell the stuff.

At the moment in Ireland lorry loads of sides of beef are being brought in from Poland, boned here and being sold on as irish beef.

It was well known in the beef industry that horses meat was being sold as beef, yet not one person or company in the beef industry has been punished. This is because the supermarkets and regulatory authorities knew well what was going on, but sure once plenty of money was being made by the factories and supermarkets a blind eye was turned. This is Ireland after all.

As for Bord Bia doing a good job, where were they while all this was going on?

Anyone who is surprised by what the factories are up to at the moment should have a read of the beef tribunal report to see what they are capable of and how worried they are about how highly regarded irish beef is around the world.

Don't know why they'd bring beef all the way from Poland, Irish bull beef is cheaper than polish stuff at the moment.
Well done on the Irish beef promotion there, but did you have to do it when we have a genuine consumer and contributor here...ffs

tanko · 22-03-2014 4:08pm

I couldn't care less what you think rancher.

blue5000 · 22-03-2014 5:41pm

rancher wrote: »

Don't know why they'd bring beef all the way from Poland, Irish bull beef is cheaper than polish stuff at the moment.
Well done on the Irish beef promotion there, but did you have to do it when we have a genuine consumer and contributor here...ffs

It probably is now, but it wasn't when larry started bringing it in.

rancher · 22-03-2014 6:05pm

tanko wrote: »

I couldn't care less what you think rancher.

At least you didn't defile our lamb, I'd have a problem with that.
Polish imports is no different than Northern Irish lamb imports,
or weanling exports to Italy, or fr calf exports.
You can't have it both ways

beef burger · 22-03-2014 8:18pm

new enough to whole farming game but i suppose to try and add to the tread is there a solution to this problem or disaster. because the way it looks goal posts keep changing and i dont think our minister is up to much on the subject but an all out strike doesnt seem to be the answer so do we just have to sit back and take it on the chin or just try and aim to export more out of the country. the future seems bleek enough to be honest for anyone of us suckling to weanling/store or beef finishing if the factories continue with there s;;t.

tomwaterford · 22-03-2014 10:25pm

rancher wrote: »

I'd imagine if you could get that in writing, there'd be a case to be answered

I wouldn't be able to..id only be talking to these lads a few times a year is all...they would usually be well up on there info

I wouldn't be 100% sure myself....so id stay out of it....sounds conspirisy to me....but from friends relations and knowing people working in/around meat factories and stories they tell ya...nothing would surprise me

coolshannagh28 · 22-03-2014 10:46pm

You cant beat the cartel , this starts with the multiples who dictate on price to the processors and moreso since the horsemeat scandal this has forced the processors to screw their primary producers and add market manipulation to this and you have our current situation where farmers are on or around the cost of production with SFP as a makeweight . There is very little that can be done about it except try to manipulate the market in farmers favour at times of shortage for the processors but as has been pointed out farmers are too disparate as a group and the product does not lend tself to flexibility and the processor because he is also a producer can offset supply . However what it all boils down to is financial pain if enough farmers were willing to endure enough pain for long enough it is just possible that the balance of power could shift , its either this or continue to be a price taker ad infinitum.

topgeas · 22-03-2014 11:05pm

sent a few bulls of on the boat on tuesday. 2.05 a kg. they weighted 585kg. 14 ta 15 months old. they were 6 weeks from killing and needed 3/4 of ton to finish. another boat due in 3 weeks.

Henwin · 22-03-2014 11:19pm

If the supermarkets and factories have so much power, then we need to do something about it. Like in France where vegetables have to be sourced within 35km of the shops, we shud lobby the supermarkets, the government and factories to demand better treatment.
Surely it benefit everyone if every supermarket has to source its meat including chicken and vegetables from producers with say 50 miles. it wud create so much employment. It really bugs me how much chicken and vegetables we import.
Im sure it can be done, the government just need a kick up the behind. Imagine all chicken, pork, lamb, beef, fish, and vegetables produced in Ireland with surplus exported.

Farmer Pudsey · 22-03-2014 11:32pm

Henwin wrote: »

If the supermarkets and factories have so much power, then we need to do something about it. Like in France where vegetables have to be sourced within 35km of the shops, we shud lobby the supermarkets, the government and factories to demand better treatment.
Surely it benefit everyone if every supermarket has to source its meat including chicken and vegetables from producers with say 50 miles. it wud create so much employment. It really bugs me how much chicken and vegetables we import.
Im sure it can be done, the government just need a kick up the behind. Imagine all chicken, pork, lamb, beef, fish, and vegetables produced in Ireland with surplus exported.

That would really f@@k up the beef market. We are the largest beef exporter in Europe, the sixth or seventh in the world it trying to stop market manulipation not increase it.

rancher · 22-03-2014 11:43pm

tomwaterford wrote: »

I wouldn't be able to..id only be talking to these lads a few times a year is all...they would usually be well up on there info

I wouldn't be 100% sure myself....so id stay out of it....sounds conspirisy to me....but from friends relations and knowing people working in/around meat factories and stories they tell ya...nothing would surprise me

These claims are coming to me regularly and until someone comes up with evidence, it's just dangerous pub talk and hearsay, not criticising your post but other posts were more specific as to who the target was

Factories acting the b****x

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