Grange Rath Update - payment of service charges

horse7

Thank you for being so honest,I will have to hold off my interest in this lovely estate until there is a satisfactory resolution to the on going crisis.

leonards

horse7 wrote: »

Thank you for being so honest,I will have to hold off my interest in this lovely estate until there is a satisfactory resolution to the on going crisis.

Admit it - this is just one guy (with an agenda) pretending to have a conversation....

horse7

Maybe you should stop talking through your arose.

delly

Folks, I think the suggestion of not buying a house in the estate is unnecessary scaremongering. While the current situation is not too good, saying that if A leads to B, then C happens, then D means that you can't sell, is too many 'what ifs' for my liking. Please stick to facts from here on in, preferably with a reference link.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at delly; many thanks for coming back to us on this page.

Yes the current situation is not looking too good and up until now factual information has been given with backup documentation on hand. However, if people are made aware of potential outcomes, they will have more information with which to make a decision.

Should anyone wishes to PM me, feel free. Thank you.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus; once again many thanks for coming back to me.

Regarding the fire safety systems in the apartments; unfortunately I cannot answer this question on the basis that I own a house however I do know that legislation states that periodic testing & inspections must be carried out throughout each year on such systems once installed.

Regarding the accounts; I totally agree with your statement. If there was no wrong doing with the accounts in the first place, then we wouldn't have this issue on hand. As previously stated, we had a so call full-time accountant (also director) working on the accounts - why are we in such a mess?!?!?!

horse7

Any idea what the Owner Management Company is doing to resolve the issues?

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at horse7; unfortunately I do not know at this present time what the owners are thinking however the meeting that's meant to be held soon with the owners may tell a different story afterwards.

IN-THE-KNOW

It is believed that the old gardener who won the high court case in Oct'14 has not been paid to date even though it is believed that he must be paid within a certain timeframe.

From the result of BOTH court cases; what actions have the Directors of the OMC carried out? Have the owners even been informed with an update - the answer is NO.

It is believed that further legal action may be taken if the gardener does not get paid - what action will the Directors of the OMC take to stop this happening? In my view; if nothing is actioned by the Directors of the OMC quickly, they are leaving themselves opened to be held for negligence.

This is an utter disgrace...

IN-THE-KNOW

It has come to light that further <snip> changes to our original Memos & Arts took place. Again no owners were notified of this taken place. Please see the below information for your records;

Original Document
The Secretary shall be appointed by the Directors for such term and upon such conditions as they may think fit; and any Secretary appointed may be removed by them.

New Document
The secretary shall be appointed by the directors for such term and as such remuneration and upon such conditions as they may think fit; and any secretary appointed may be removed by them.

A complaint has been issued to the ODCE once again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

IN-THE-KNOW wrote: »

It has come to light that further illegal changes to our original Memos & Arts took place. Again no owners were notified of this taken place. Please see the below information for your records;

Original Document
The Secretary shall be appointed by the Directors for such term and upon such conditions as they may think fit; and any Secretary appointed may be removed by them.

New Document
The secretary shall be appointed by the directors for such term and as such remuneration and upon such conditions as they may think fit; and any secretary appointed may be removed by them.

A complaint has been issued to the ODCE once again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Surely the terms cannot be changed without a vote at a meeting. Although the revised condition is quite normal to be honest.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Srameen; yes you are correct, no changes to the Memos & Arts can be authorised without 75% of the owners agreeing to such terms at a meeting or in writing. Changes were already made behind the owners back in April'13 and the ODCE authorised the board to change the Memos & Arts back to the original document however not all changes were complete as you can see.

To be honest; this matter is now going legal because I'm sick to the bone of the corruption that is being carried out by the ex/current directors accept by one director!

IN-THE-KNOW

I believe a formal request has been directed to the Directors of the OMC and the Management Agent in regards to carrying out an investigation into the activities of the Directors who were elected back in March'13. I believe if this is denied, then a petition will be called upon to the members to force the Directors of the OMC to have an EGM for the members to agree on the investigation. I believe this is the first step before legal action is considered.

Lantus

IN-THE-KNOW wrote: »

I believe a formal request has been directed to the Directors of the OMC and the Management Agent in regards to carrying out an investigation into the activities of the Directors who were elected back in March'13. I believe if this is denied, then a petition will be called upon to the members to force the Directors of the OMC to have an EGM for the members to agree on the investigation. I believe this is the first step before legal action is considered.

You have two issues. Firstly I would not see an investigation into director duties as a matter relating to an EGM or business of any meeting that could be considered reasonable or in any way able to be voted on or discussed. You should seek independent advice on this but its not really an outcome relating to and EGM even though it is something you might want.

The existing directors may comply with this anyway (unlikely, I wouldn't) but you cannot make them do this at an EGM. It is not ordinary company business.

IF you are going to use an EGM then use it to put in place new directors. something you should of probably done some time ago. The EGM process is slightly more involved so make sure you read your articles and the ODCE handbook several times to make sure all parties are clear on the legal statutory process so that you are watertight in everything you do and cannot be usurped on a technicality. If there is a conflict you may need to produce all your paperwork and minutes to prove what happened and this may well require the signatures of multiple members on every piece of paper.

The members can force an EGM if the directors do not comply and the ordinary business of that meeting can be director appointments. The new directors may well wish to undertake an investigation but again that's not normal company business so don't make written reference to it.

In advance of such a take over I would find out who keeps the company records such as the members register and accounts. Getting these may be more problematic than you imagine if there are indeed secrets to be hidden.

So, your EGM process is to appoint new directors. Not to try to conduct police investigations. Once you have new directors they would have the power to review all documentation which would be required anyway.

Be careful how much time you expend trying to 'catch' bad guys. They could easily shred of falsify documents so you could get very frustrated and poor trying to get evidence to make a conviction or prosecution. Better to wipe the slate and move on unless its simple and straight forward.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus; many thanks for your email, much appreciated.

I have sought independent advice. At present this is the best way forward in order to cover all angels.

This motion is known as a special business therefore it can be carried out on the night of an AGM once agreed with the Directors.

I totally agree with you; we certainly need new Directors. In regards to paperwork, I certainly have all my back up documentation on hand and these have already been produced to the relevant governing bodies and of course other bodies that I’m associated with.
Back in May’13 (or near about) I had a problem seeking a copy of our Memos & Arts and I was informed by the Office Manager at that time that they were with the solicitors. Why would they be with the solicitors I thought? Few months down the line, I found out the Directors had made 16/17 chances to the document. So yes, I believe there are indeed secrets being kept!

Being honest; I won’t be wiping the slate clean and moving on from these Directors. I’m not going away and I will keep fighting this case until the matter is resolved clearly on the basis that I and other people have the backup documentation. Already we had one auditor resigning because of the compilations and we may have another one not agreeing to carry out the audit therefore if there was no hidden secrets; we wouldn’t have this issue.

Lantus

great to hear you have kept detailed records! [] below denotes sections in the ODCE handbook.

At and EGM you can have ordinary resolutions and special resolutions. Typically it is all special [25.26] though. The EGM is different in that there is no scope to deviate or have floor proposals in relation to any other matter other than that issued as the legal notification. The term special business carries more weight than it probably should as outside an AGM all business is generally considered to be special business. In a similar fashion the word extraordinary in EGM gives the impression of something quite amazing when in fact it is also just any other meeting than an AGM.

I am not sure though how an 'investigation' can be a special resolution? I would like to hear how that would be worded on the letter you intend to issue? Typically all ordinary and special resolutions relate to company rules, altering the companies articles of associations, changes of directors etc. See [25.30] An investigation is such a vague thing it would be hard to legally define what you would be voting for. Obviously this list is not exhaustive and if you have obtained legal confirmation that it can be a special resolution then you should follow it if you feel it is best.

All company directors have a legal obligation to highlight any wrong doing or non compliance by any other director, you don't need a special directive to achieve that. The key battle is getting all existing directors removed and new trustworthy people put in place. On the day that meeting happens you should have the EGM minutes typed up and the next day get a letter to the OMC bank notifying of the change. Get a contact in the bank established. You may want to try and get a stop on any transactions. The bank may or may not do this subject to CRO confirmation.

Such an investigation would be a very time consuming job and no doubt only company directors would be able to do it as you would need full access to the company accounts and bank records.

I would suggest that you have a new team of directors to run the OMC and one or two directors like yourself to be dedicated to looking into past affairs (as well as helping out with everything else of course!)

You may well want to make an interim financial fee addition at the EGM for legal costs which would no doubt be extensive to pursue these people. Subject to the companies existing finances of course.


places where you can easily fall foul is where you have members who are not fully paid up and they make up part of the legal requisition to hold an EGM if against the current directors wishes. In this case the existing directors can have such a proposal thrown out in a second. It is critically important everyone is honest and not just trying to be helpful.

Edit: Its commendable that you want to make the current directors be brought up but don't do it at the expense of the long term well being of the company that's all. A company director always operates in the best interest of the company and not himself or any one person or group. Its a global long term vision of how the development should be maintained and managed.

Ultimately every member will pay for any crusade by the current directors to retrospectively seek justice for any wrong doing through legal fees. The solicitor will always win. You should establish the easiest way to achieve success balancing time, effort and money. Its business not personal.

Thinking back on previous posts you made did the director not rent an office and employ their wife? A few easy targets here would be building control and planning to ensure they had all paperwork to operate the unit as an office and revenue would always be happy to hear about income where tax may not of been paid. This contractor would need to be registered self employed as an OMC cannot usually have employees. Does this persons employer take well to moonlighting? You could write to them and get their opinion giving the name of the person who was doing it to be helpful.

This kind of approach can inflict severe damage at almost minimal cost. Think around the area before giving a solicitor 6k to try and get a conviction for some paper work anomaly.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus; Thank you for the advice put forward, it’s highly appreciated and will be thought of.

It will be interesting to see if the Directors of the OMC highlight the change of our companies Memos & Arts to the owners at the meeting, this is the reason why I’ve made contact with the auditors in question to ensure they follow suit too.

I’ve been advised by my associates not to step in as Director and keep doing what I'm doing as it's the best course of action at this present time.

Yes the Office Manager was the wife of one of the Directors who has resigned…funny enough!!!!!!

IN-THE-KNOW

A copy of a letter that was issued to the Directors of the OMC last month will be issued to all residents. The Directors again failed to respond to a letter that was issued by one of the owners - clearly giving the impression that some things would not like to be investigated!!!

IN-THE-KNOW

URGENT - I just receive information that Grange Rath Ltd will be WOUND UP tomorrow. The Directors of the OMC have alot to answer for given the fact they have not paid one penny to the gardener who won his court case back in Oct'14 while still paying themselves and the ex-Director and wife of ex-Director who resigned in April'14 - utter disgrace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

horse7

Terrible news,so there will be no company to manage the estate,

IN-THE-KNOW

I'm just after finding out the the process is not yet complete with the wound up of the company. Once complete (meant to be in April'15), a confirmed date will be given so it's definitely not happening today as previously informed.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at horse7 - once the company is wound up; I believe the units cannot be sold/purchased and the debt of the company will be divided up equally among all the shareholders to pay. A liquidator will be appointed and an agent will carry out the works. During this time; I will ensure that the Directors involved will be sued for negligence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IN-THE-KNOW

Owners have a right to know what is going on with their management company. Questions are being put forward by owners and these questions are quickly removed from facebook page site because the "administrators" do not want to create a bad image and afraid to answer difficult questions. This is the reason why I had to set up this page on Boards.ie in order to give owners a true account of what is going on within Grange Rath. Unfortunately I do not like to be the bearer of bad news but someone has to give the true facts because the Directors have failed to carried this out.

Unfortunately some owners do not wish to know what is going within the estate which is a real shame but other owners do want to know. At the end of the day its ALL owners who will have to pay the price not just a selected few.

Lantus

How did you hear this? Is it confirmed by the CRO?

For a large estate it will be a disaster. apartments will have no buildings insurance and will be unsellable. Common areas will also be uninsured. Houses could technically be sold but most banks would not permit any mortgage without an operating OMC. A cash sale could go through but why would a well off person buy a property that they could never sell except to another rich fool?

The cost to have the company re-instated will probably run at 10-15k subject to a number of legal issues. Unpleasant all round.

The bottom line is no estate maintenance.

I would be writing to your local councillors, TDs, the ODCE, RTE and anyone else who would be willing or able to do something.

The residents need to think long and hard and seriously consider holding an EGM and forcing immediate changes of the directors. What other options do you have at this stage?

Until you take control of the company you are just spectators. Directors make all the decisions.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus; I found out about 2 weeks ago that the ex-gardener was making an application to the courts to wind up the company. This week I heard the company was going to be wound up on Friday from a different source so I thought word had got around because I never said anything to no one. The actual fact is from yesterday after speaking to the ex-gardener is that the application is being sent to the courts early next week and when the process is complete a date for the court appearance will be set - I'm hearing sometime in April'15.

In the meantime, I've contacted the local solicitors in Co Meath and gave them a brief description of what has been going on so I'm waiting to hear back.

Lantus

oh, I doubt this will get anywhere. I'm surprised his solicitor even suggested it. The idea that a third party can just have an OMC wound up is pretty ridiculous given it is bound into millions of euros of mortgages which could potentially be made worthless through this action. Every unit owner has a contract lease which binds them into the company.

Lets say you have 300 units at 250k average price each. That's 75 million euros of mortgages a court will have to flush down the toilet to favour the few thousand euros of debts this company or individual has.

And if he does wind up the company he wouldn't get the money anyway because members are limited to €1 upon wind up based on a standard lease. And an OMC has no assets to sell!!!

This sounds like scaremongering. The idea that a receiver or liquidator will be appointed by the court is pretty silly. You can't dissolve a company which provides buildings insurance and owns the apartment buildings providing critical safety, maintenance and potentially life safety systems.

He needs to get a debt judgement if anything to recover his money. You can't just dissolve a company like this. Otherwise every little food producer that didn't get paid by a big corp like Tesco would just rock up to court and destroy them. Doesn't happen because it can't. Tails don't wag dogs.

horse7

Could or would the council take over the estate.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus; many thanks for coming back to me on this matter.
Yes you are correct, our lease limits us to £1 (€1.27) upon wind up. I wish it was scaremongering but considering that the ex-gardener paid alot of money to carry this out as there was alot of paper work involved. I believe the Directors will have a chance to pull ther finger out to start paying the ex-gardener once a date has been confirmed with the courts before it goes to the 2nd stage. The way the Directors have behaved to date is totally unacceptable. They literally think they can ignore anyone i.e. ODCE instructions, court payments.

Directed at horse7; the starting process of the council taking over the estate has started however the council will not take over any development until it's fully complete. Please note it could take years for this process to be complete.

IN-THE-KNOW

Please be aware that Keeley Property Maintenance already received a debt judgement when he won his court case in Oct'14.

horse7

The more I read about the OMC situation the less likely I would be to purchase in the estate. Who is going to pay for all the court cases past and present? And going forward what is the likely annual fee for a householder.