Grange Rath Update - payment of service charges

Lord TSC

IN-THE-KNOW wrote: »

Hi...
So far for ground maintenance, I've seen between €55K to 80K. So far what I have notice in the last year, the cheaper the price, the cheaper the cut hence the state of the grounds! Sometimes it is worth paying that little bit extra to get good quality standards i.e. what we were paying the ex-gardener for a number of years!!

YES - caretaking fees would be seperate i.e. he could be carrying out litter picking, cleaning of bin areas, site inspections to common areas i.e. checking for any lights blown in the apartment blocks etc...

YES - tree replacement would be an additional cost.

Honestly, I feel if we're paying the gut ends of 75k for the upkeep of the estate, it really should be in a far, far superior state right now. Essentially, I feel that level of cash should have two people in full time employment (and that would leave plenty for them to buy equipment if needed, replace the trees and bushes, etc). And we certainly do not appear to be getting a level of quality of two people in full time employment. I would have no problem paying for quality if quality was being delivered, but once again, it looks like we're getting some cowboys taking advantage of a situation by charging top notch prices and delivering lowest level work.

<snip>

Out of interest, what are the rates like for other estates in town?

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus; many thanks for your post, it is so refreshing to see such comments from an experience volunteer director who knows about the companies memos & arts! I wish our directors and the so call company solicitors knew how to obey by them!!

As far as I'm aware we have at least 25 acres of common area green within our development. It is surprising to see such competitive rates that you were able to seek from contractors for your size development - interesting indeed. Our old gardener did try to compromise with his specification and reduce the fee down to even half the price but it is understood that the directors were not interested as they just wanted to hire "their friends / family members" to do the work!!

It was hard to believe that 10K was catered for the office. It was understood from some owners that when they were able to attend the office when opened, you couldn't have more than 2 people in the office! I know of offices being rented out for €50 per week!!

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus again; please be aware that I did receive your full message even though some of it has been removed at 18.10hrs. Thank you for your advice and it's certainly being looked into at present!!! :-)

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Teamshawdowclan; the ex-gardener hired 2 people, so 3 people in total was looking after our green area and obviously over the years people could see how much of a standard was kept up. Since last year, you can certainly see the difference, I never seen the green areas to be in bits and the weeds are a totally disgrace! It will be interesting to see what the next gardener will bring to the table, will their standards meet our ex-gardener, only time will tell!

Lantus

apologies to mods for legal advice.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus - thank you again for your advice, much appreciated!

YES, Grange Rath is a very large estate however only a small percentage of owners are interested in the running of the company. Unfortunately some owners just want to pay their service charges and let other people do the worrying.

In the last year, the ex/current board of directors, their so call solicitors and their followers have been making the decisions. Unfortunately, some owners do not attend their AGM/EGM's therefore decisions have been easily agreed with these people.

Now we have a new management agent - hopefully things will improve from here on in, afterall agents are there to assist/advise board of directors of the MUD Act and Company Law!

Lantus

IN-THE-KNOW wrote: »

Directed at Lantus - thank you again for your advice, much appreciated!

YES, Grange Rath is a very large estate however only a small percentage of owners are interested in the running of the company. Unfortunately some owners just want to pay their service charges and let other people do the worrying.

In the last year, the ex/current board of directors, their so call solicitors and their followers have been making the decisions. Unfortunately, some owners do not attend their AGM/EGM's therefore decisions have been easily agreed with these people.

Now we have a new management agent - hopefully things will improve from here on in, afterall agents are there to assist/advise board of directors of the MUD Act and Company Law!

Directors do make all the decisions, that's how it works! AT the AGM there is an opportunity for input by reisdents and good omcs get feedback all the time. Of course most people have been educated only enough to complain and not provide well thought out solutions to problems or help in any meaningful way.

Beware valuable input from the agent. They are a profit making entity and ensuring they are paid is their no.1 priority at all times. They also must take all directions from the directors as to their scope. Make sure you have a good contract!

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus; many thanks for coming back to me.

Oh I know directors normally make all the decisions in other developments and it's so refreshing to see and easier on the agents! However in our case our ex/current board of directors (elected in March'13) clearly had no experience and they proved themselves to <snip> i.e. inputting a section to our memos & arts of were they can pay themselves - as I stated in my previous post, no wonder they had board meetings every Monday. How often would you have board meetings? So on that basis, we do need an agent, that is licensed according to the PRSA and that goes by the MUD Act and Company Law at all times.

Lantus

IN-THE-KNOW wrote: »

Directed at Lantus; many thanks for coming back to me.

Oh I know directors normally make all the decisions in other developments and it's so refreshing to see and easier on the agents! However in our case our ex/current board of directors (elected in March'13) clearly had no experience and they proved themselves to <snip> i.e. inputting a section to our memos & arts of were they can pay themselves - as I stated in my previous post, no wonder they had board meetings every Monday. How often would you have board meetings? So on that basis, we do need an agent, that is licensed according to the PRSA and that goes by the MUD Act and Company Law at all times.

A managing agent would not of prevented any of these actions by the directors as far as I can see. As long they were getting paid they would say its up to the directors. Only directors can alter the AofA's anyway.

it takes a lot of reading and experience to get you up to speed on all relevant legislation as a director, its an ongoing process and no one starts out with all the knowledge or skills they need to do the job. You jump in and tackle each bit one at a time. Its a step learning curve and mistakes will be made but you have accept failure as part of the process towards success.

These days one of my measures of ongoing improvement is mistakes, complaints and often threats of legal action! I'd rather be guilty of doing something and trying to improve the estate even if feathers are ruffled than playing it safe and failing or wishing I'd tried harder.

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantas; many thanks for coming back to me.

A management agent would have to inform the directors of a development that in order for the wording of the memos & arts to be changed in any way, it would have to be agreed by 75% of it shareholders at an AGM/EGM or in writing, so in our case agreed by 708 units. This would have to be carried out legally by a solicitor also. Again in our case, we had no management agent so the board hired a so call solicitor who by right was "qualified to carry out his duties as a solicitor". The solicitor involved would have known what the proper procedure was to carry out the changes to our memos & arts and for him and the Secretary of Grange Rath to certify our memos & arts "duly passed in writing" on the 10th April'13 (6 weeks after the board members were elected), in my view, was not a small mistake! Both the board members and their so call solicitor knew exactly what they were doing at the time and they should be ashamed of themselves!!

YES, it does take alot of reading and experience for directors to get to know the legislation as a director and fair play to any owner carrying out the task as it's not easy to say the least but this is why the management agents are involved because they already have the experience and they are there to help and assist the directors along the way.

Lantus

I think your placing too much faith in a managing agents ability or willingness to tell the directors what they should or should not do.

Also, re the solicitor they should be referred to the law society and a formal complaint made against them.

Lord TSC

Does anyone know why certain areas seem to be having lovely short grass and others have a meadow outside their house? Someone was telling me they heard some areas are coming together to do it among themselves, but I'd imagine that's not as easy in areas with small fields in front of them....

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus; from experience, management agents do have alot of experience and they don't tell directors what to they, they advise them of the best course of action to take on certain matters. If directors choose not to accept their advice, then that's the decision they have made and no hard feelings.

Directed at Lord; Yes, some owners in the "Parks" have decided to come together and cut the grass themselves purely on the basis that the grass wasn't being cut on a regular basis by the last gardeners and the standards were not kept up to the highest as promised. Unfortunately because of the behaviour of the ex/current board of directors in the last year, owners have stalled the payment of their service charges, therefore some services will be affected i.e. cutting of the grass.

IN-THE-KNOW

As per EGM tonight and as per statement made earlier to the floor;

•Last year's fees i.e. 2013/2014 - I'm withholding the fees due to the mismanagement of Grange Rath that was carried out by the ex-directors/current directors and <snip> changes to our Memos & Arts behind the owners backs by Secretary of Grange Rath and the solicitor.

•This year's fees i.e. 2014/2015 - I'm withholding the legal fees due to the solicitor that was involved in our <snip> change to our Memos & Arts and previous court cases.

So on that basis, I will be happy to pay the rest of my portion towards this year's fees i.e. 2014/2015 which will be paid upon request for payment. As I stated to the floor, I do not wish to go through another 11 months chasing the Secretary of Grange Rath for answers to my questions. He is clearly too afraid to put anything in writing because of his behaviour therefore he is not fit to carry out his role has Company Secretary.

Should owners need more information, please private message me, thanks!!

Lantus

why not just elect new directors? Surely for such a large estate there are more people willing? If you keep people who allegedly committed fraud on your board your basically giving them a green light to rob you blind.

Mylow

What initiated all the changes was a proposal to bring in clamping. The idea being you get a parking permit if you paid your fees, those who didn't pay the fee's would not get a permit.

As I recall an EGM was called in relation to this issue. After the proposal to introduce clamping the 2 resident directors allegedly received threats and stood down. One of the directors was the chairman of the residents association, the residents association no longer functioned.

I was a member of the residents association from 2007 to 2009, events were regularly ran for the kids in the estate, but as usual it was core people running all these events and found it difficult to get a representation from each street.

I know live abroad but still have my home in Grange Rath, I was back last weekend and to say the place is a disgrace is understating it.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Did the council not take over the roads and lighting for this estate?

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus - In the past we had good directors looking after our estate but unfortunately in 2012 they were faced with a group of owners who taught entirely different to them to the way the estate should be managed therefore there were alot of disagreements at meetings / arguments / lies being told and of course involving the ODCE into the mix. These good directors resigned and these group of owners were elected. Now good owners do not wish to take part in the running of the development therefore we do not have any other choice (as it seems).

Directed at Mylow - Yes, your statement is correct.

Directed at Srameen - NO, the council has not taking over the estate i.e. roads / lighting until the development is 100% complete by the developer and to be honest it could take years for the council to decide to take over the estate.

Lantus

that's a shame re the first batch of directors. You get a group of good people doing an honest job for nothing but <snip>

I'm guessing like a lot of this country and managed estates the residents didn't want to speak out or lacked any real knowledge to make any reasonable contribution so kept their mouths shut and went along with it.

Can't blame the directors for what they did. The residents sanctioned their actions from day one. Its the unit owners estate and the law is of the opinion that as owners in in a managed estate they should be competent in understanding all the issues and decision making implications.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

IN-THE-KNOW

Directed at Lantus - interesting quote from Edmund Burke but very true! :-)

That is the thing; there has been certain things said about some of these bullies and unfortunately some residents are aware of "these said things" and they do not want to get involved, want to keep their mouths shut and just go along with it! Unfortunately I'm not built that way - I do not care who these people are, what they are involved in, who they know etc... if they are doing something wrong and I find out about it, they will be reported to whoever I see fit.

<snip>

Mylow

http://mcgwynne.com/wordpress/high-court-case-update-with-spm/

IN-THE-KNOW

Hopefully the directors would have learnt something through this experience - we will have to wait and see. Hopefully they will now see the sense to try and resolve the issue on hand with the ex-gardener and not be wasting time and owners money!!!

IN-THE-KNOW

***Letter through the door***

Colpe Management Ltd
t/a Grange Rath Ltd
YOUR COMPANY

***URGENT UPDATE - DO NOT IGNORE***

July 2014

Dear Residents,

I write to you as a concerned owner-occupier in Grange Rath. I have some serious concerns on the mismanagement of our estate that occurred in the hands of the ex/current directors that were elected in March 2013 and wish to bring the below information to the attention of as many other owners as I possibly can to raise awareness and bring about change in the future.

It was stated by the board of directors who were elected in March’13 in one of the newsletters i.e. before the illegal AGM took place on the 29th July’13 that “Remaining with SPM was bankrupting our company. Despite the rapidly growing debt that should have been stopped immediately. Apparently and to our surprise two previous residents Directors signed a three year contract with SPM dated June 2012. There is a clause in the SPM contract preventing the hiring of another agent until all outstanding monies are paid in full. We simply do not have the money to pay off the legacy of the last directorship and hire another agent”.

I have a copy of the Smith Property Management (SPM) contract that was signed in 2012 and could not see where in the contract it states that we could not hire another management agent unless all outstanding monies to SPM were paid to them in full.

Below is a brief summary of Section 5 of the contract with SPM, Section - Disputes and Termination of Agreement. Please note that “Managing Agent is SPM” and “Management Company is Grange Rath”;

1. All disputes to be put in writing
2. Notice of Termination of contract must be served notice of not less than 8 weeks prior.
3. Managing Agent to call for the removal of the Management Agent at an EGM in accordance with the Memorandum and Articles of the Management Company.
4. It is agreed that the Management Company will pay in full OR enter into a payment plan and agree that the Management Agent outstanding amounts shall be paid in full before and shall rank above any other payments due and owing to any newly appointed Management agent until all the Management Agents outstanding fees are paid in full.

Should owners wish to see a full copy of the SPM contract – please contact me and I will happily forward on a copy.

Please note that in January 2013, the Property Service Regulatory Authority (PRSA) introduced new standardised contracts between ALL Management Company’s and Management Agent’s. Meaning; ALL old contracts between Management Company’s and Management Agent’s became null and void.

Back in June 2013, I requested a copy of the contract between SPM and Grange Rath, from one of the ex directors which I never received – until now, from an unknown source!

It is my personal opinion that the board of directors saw an opportunity to exploit the situation so they formed a group, spread gossip about honest people who voluntarily gave up their free time to look after our estate, convinced owners to believe in their version of the truth, took over our development, unconstitutionally changed the Memos & Arts, RECEIVED PAYMENTS and have since RESIGNED when they found there was no money left in our bank account!

In all fairness to Mr Noel McGwynne; he realised what the other board members were up to at the very beginning and he turned his back on the illegal dealings that were underhandedly being carried out behind the owner’s back! Owners should also realise that Noel made a genuine mistake by involving himself with this group and he has since apologised personally to ex-directors for his behaviour.

NOW, one year later, we have a new management agent looking after us. Ever wonder how this was possible??

PLEASE BE AWARE THAT NOEL AND I CONTACTED THE AUDITORS A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO IN RELATION TO THE Y/E ACCOUNTS. THEY HAVE THREATENED TO PUT A HALT TO THE AUDIT UNTIL THE DIRECTORS/MEMBERS COME TO AN AGREEMENT ON THE ACCOUNTS. A MEETING WILL BE HELD SOON.


Court case involving our ex-gardener Keeley Property Maintenance Ltd.

A settlement offer was reach with SPM a couple of weeks ago. To date, no settlement offer has been reached with the ex-gardener.

The board of directors are willing to waste our money on high legal fees and court cases instead of minimising our outgoing costs. They clearly do not have the best interest for our development as they have mismanaged this estate to the highest!

IN-THE-KNOW

Courtcase involving our ex-gardener - Keeley Property Maintenance Ltd.

A settlement offer was reached with SPM a couple of weeks ago. To date, no settlement offer has been reached with the ex-gardener even though he had offered a payment plan and it wasn’t agreed by the board of directors.

Should you wish to see a stop to the court case and see a payment plan agreed between both parties – please make contact with me. I will draft up a list of owners and send this onto DPS and the board of directors in the hope that they will finally listen to ALL owners and take OUR VIEW ON BOARD.

IN-THE-KNOW

Unanswered questions seems to be catching...for some reason our management agent has also picked up the bug from our directors regarding to not answering questions...something smells fishy and I hope the relevant government bodies will do their job correctly to ensure that this will not continue / ever happen again!

IN-THE-KNOW

Just a quick update to say that the auditors have now resigned...further delays with the accounts are now expected...

Normal protocal...a meeting will be called for the owners to appoint new auditors...it will be interesting to see if this happens...

horse7

I am looking into buying a house in grange rath,and upon reading this thread am wondering if this estate has not been taken over by the local council,or where exactly are the roads concerned.

horse7

horse7 wrote: »

I am looking into buying a house in grange rath,and upon reading this thread am wondering if this estate has not been taken over by the local council,or where exactly are the roads concerned.

is this charge culpulsory? just how much is the charge?

delly

horse7 wrote: »

is this charge culpulsory? just how much is the charge?

There is a motion for the estate to be taken in hand by the council at the moment. Cost is about 200 for houses, I think about 700 or 800 for apartments. This is compulsory

horse7

Thanks for the info.